StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

Simon H.Johansen wrote:

Kuja wrote:Mary Sue-ing is creating a character that rarely/never meets an obstacle they can't handle.

Self insertion is creating a character that is mostly or totally based off your own personality.

Both imply lazy writing, and a lot of people accuse Stackpole of it.

So according to you, H.P. Lovecraft was a lazy writer because some of his characters were based upon himself??

No, because Lovecraft was a good writer that knew how to write characters, as PainRack said... Quite unlike Stackpole.

You really have to learn not to interpret people so literally.

Ooops... I should probably have replied with "according to your logic, H. P. Lovecraft was..."

In any case, it is unfair to write off an author as lazy because he bases some of his characters upon himself or herself.

I can understand that self-insertion can be caused by the author lacking imagination and therefore looking at himself when creating characters - but this is not always the case, as evidenced by Lovecraft (who certainly had a very vivid imagination but still based characters upon himself).

Alyeska wrote:So we throw out the games for the most part and just look at the chronicles. In that case we don't truly have enough information to properly rank Farlander, Steele, or Azzameen. They become honorable mentions.

You also missed the Major from the 181st who served under Baron Fel and is in Starfighters of Adumar.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Alyeska wrote:So we throw out the games for the most part and just look at the chronicles. In that case we don't truly have enough information to properly rank Farlander, Steele, or Azzameen. They become honorable mentions.

You also missed the Major from the 181st who served under Baron Fel and is in Starfighters of Adumar.

Doh, I had forgotten that guy. After Fel left he was the next top ace still flying for the Empire since it appears Steele got a desk job. I would put his skill level at or near Tycho. Thats damned good and the only people better then him are Jedi's or have Antilles/Fel blood in them.

What kind of kill numbers do these pilots have? I know Wedge had at least several hundred (he had his fighter painted with representations of 144).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Alyeska wrote:So we throw out the games for the most part and just look at the chronicles. In that case we don't truly have enough information to properly rank Farlander, Steele, or Azzameen. They become honorable mentions.

You also missed the Major from the 181st who served under Baron Fel and is in Starfighters of Adumar.

Kuja already mentioned him. General Turr Phennir.

Agent Fisher wrote:You know what, despite all the flak that the character gets, I liked Corran Horn.

Hear hear!

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:What kind of kill numbers do these pilots have? I know Wedge had at least several hundred (he had his fighter painted with representations of 144).

Wedge had his fighter painted with squadron representations last I checked.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Agent Fisher wrote:You know what, despite all the flak that the character gets, I liked Corran Horn.

Hear hear!

I am an idiot. I just realized what your name means.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:In any case, it is unfair to write off an author as lazy because he bases some of his characters upon himself or herself.

I can understand that self-insertion can be caused by the author lacking imagination and therefore looking at himself when creating characters - but this is not always the case, as evidenced by Lovecraft (who certainly had a very vivid imagination but still based characters upon himself).

Simon, we know that. You have a habit of assuming that people here don't know what they're talking about and are rock stupid concerning certain subjects, then give basic information that virtually everybody already knows.

We're not making blanket statements: we're giving a reason why a particular writer is a hack. Coran Horn = Michael J. Stackpole, for all purposes. He's a lazy writer because Coran is just Stackpole running around in the Galaxy, showing how much better at everything he is than the other major characters, something most fanfiction writers know not to do...

Agent Fisher wrote:

Rogue 9 wrote:

Agent Fisher wrote:You know what, despite all the flak that the character gets, I liked Corran Horn.

Hear hear!

I am an idiot. I just realized what your name means.

IIRC, Rouge chose that screen name because it was his designation in some online game, not because of Corran Horn. Am I right?

Yeah, that's right. But even so...

Alyeska wrote:So we throw out the games for the most part and just look at the chronicles. In that case we don't truly have enough information to properly rank Farlander, Steele, or Azzameen. They become honorable mentions.

Fucking bullshit. Both The Farlander Papers and The Stele Chronicles make explicit mention of the exploits of the various characters. The specific actions of the characters, e.g. who turned where when, are not described, but the general accomplishments are, and for these goals to have been achieved, the characters in question must be exceptional pilots.
We know, for example, how many tours of duty Maarek Stele survived, that he saved the Emperor's life on more than one occasion (he defeated a kidnapping attempt at one of the Emperor's ISDs, and he defeated an ambush on the Emperor's personal cruise liner), that he flew with Lord Vader against the rogue Grand Admiral Zaarin, and that he rose high in the ranks of the Emperor's Hands.
Why is he only "honorable mention"?

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:He's a lazy writer because Coran is just Stackpole running around in the Galaxy, showing how much better at everything he is than the other major characters, something most fanfiction writers know not to do...

Ah... I get it now.

Robert Treder wrote:

Alyeska wrote:So we throw out the games for the most part and just look at the chronicles. In that case we don't truly have enough information to properly rank Farlander, Steele, or Azzameen. They become honorable mentions.

Fucking bullshit. Both The Farlander Papers and The Stele Chronicles make explicit mention of the exploits of the various characters. The specific actions of the characters, e.g. who turned where when, are not described, but the general accomplishments are, and for these goals to have been achieved, the characters in question must be exceptional pilots.
We know, for example, how many tours of duty Maarek Stele survived, that he saved the Emperor's life on more than one occasion (he defeated a kidnapping attempt at one of the Emperor's ISDs, and he defeated an ambush on the Emperor's personal cruise liner), that he flew with Lord Vader against the rogue Grand Admiral Zaarin, and that he rose high in the ranks of the Emperor's Hands.
Why is he only "honorable mention"?

Because we have no freaking way ot gauging them with the other pilots. We have not seen them in comparison and they get relatively little if ANY mention in the books themselves. It could well be that they are at the level of Horn and Jade, they could be Tycho's equal, they could even possibly have the skill level of Jag Fel. The problem is we can't accurately gauge them because the chronicles don't give the detail we know from the novels and the novels give us a way go gauge them over many years.

Furthermore I would like to point that that Farlander has a glarring error in his "history". How could he have been covering Luke one the DS run when Wedge himself states there were only two X-Wing survivors and we know only one other Y-Wing survived.

Alyeska wrote:

Robert Treder wrote:

Alyeska wrote:So we throw out the games for the most part and just look at the chronicles. In that case we don't truly have enough information to properly rank Farlander, Steele, or Azzameen. They become honorable mentions.

Fucking bullshit. Both The Farlander Papers and The Stele Chronicles make explicit mention of the exploits of the various characters. The specific actions of the characters, e.g. who turned where when, are not described, but the general accomplishments are, and for these goals to have been achieved, the characters in question must be exceptional pilots.
We know, for example, how many tours of duty Maarek Stele survived, that he saved the Emperor's life on more than one occasion (he defeated a kidnapping attempt at one of the Emperor's ISDs, and he defeated an ambush on the Emperor's personal cruise liner), that he flew with Lord Vader against the rogue Grand Admiral Zaarin, and that he rose high in the ranks of the Emperor's Hands.
Why is he only "honorable mention"?

Because we have no freaking way ot gauging them with the other pilots. We have not seen them in comparison and they get relatively little if ANY mention in the books themselves. It could well be that they are at the level of Horn and Jade, they could be Tycho's equal, they could even possibly have the skill level of Jag Fel. The problem is we can't accurately gauge them because the chronicles don't give the detail we know from the novels and the novels give us a way go gauge them over many years.

Furthermore I would like to point that that Farlander has a glarring error in his "history". How could he have been covering Luke one the DS run when Wedge himself states there were only two X-Wing survivors and we know only one other Y-Wing survived.

There is a contradiction if Farlander or Lt. Narwa (I think thats his name) was flying the Y-wing.

Stofsk wrote:Why do people dislike Corran Horn?

I despise the guy because he's a terrible character. He has little personality, his endless philosophizing is as boring as it is stupid. He has massive character shields for no reason, since he's not remotely dynamic. His existence led to I, Jedi, which was frankly a travesty the likes of which literature has very rarely seen before or since, and he's completely uninvolving and uninteresting. Other, better characters exist within the SW universe that could easily have been the subject of debates, yet here we are stuck Whine E. Whinealot, reading another unengrossing adventure about how he does something uninteresting. Corran has no real flaws, and thus fails as a character by failing to allow readers to bond with him. That he would be in so many frickin' books without presenting a single character flaw only magnifies the extent of his failure.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:What kind of kill numbers do these pilots have? I know Wedge had at least several hundred (he had his fighter painted with representations of 144).

Wedge had his fighter painted with squadron representations last I checked.

Yep. In Rogue Squadron Wedge is inspecting his xiwin and emtrey tells him the kills in red represent a squadron ie) a doozen. Wedge says something to the effect "He can group them in gross lots for all i care"

PainRack wrote:

Simon H.Johansen wrote:

Kuja wrote:Mary Sue-ing is creating a character that rarely/never meets an obstacle they can't handle.

Self insertion is creating a character that is mostly or totally based off your own personality.

Both imply lazy writing, and a lot of people accuse Stackpole of it.

So according to you, H.P. Lovecraft was a lazy writer because some of his characters were based upon himself??

No, mary sueing refers to stuff like fanfics, where the author character is so all-powerful that he can trump major characters and decide the story arc. It would be like if you suddenly wrote yourself into LOTR and you possessed the ability to warp the ring power to your own use and challenge Sauron, Gandalf and everybody combined.


There was an episode on Buffy, the Vampire Slayer that "touched" on this. Basically, this guy get some magic stuff that makes him into a "Mary Sue" of Buffy the Vampire Slayer TV show. Everybody likes him, he's smart, brillant, caustic wit, popular with the guys and girls and he can kick ass, even better than the main character.

BTVS season four episode named "Superstar".

my vote goes to Anakin Skywalker for best pilot.
I have to say no one has mentioned Obi-Wan as a good pilot, he did pretty damn good in AotC.

Simon H.Johansen wrote: Ooops... I should probably have replied with "according to your logic, H. P. Lovecraft was..."

In any case, it is unfair to write off an author as lazy because he bases some of his characters upon himself or herself.

I can understand that self-insertion can be caused by the author lacking imagination and therefore looking at himself when creating characters - but this is not always the case, as evidenced by Lovecraft (who certainly had a very vivid imagination but still based characters upon himself).

This isn't about self insertion. Its about letting your character become the major monjo player.


Look at I Jedi. In it, Corran is god, he's the one who smash Exaar Kun power,allowing Luke Skywalker to triumph. He's the one Luke turns to for advice. He's the baddass kick arse, unlike anybody else, he doesn't need to fear the dark side.

Rule number 1 in the SW universe is plain and simple. You. do. not . Outuber. the Son of Skywalker.


Come to think of it, that's the exact same reason why Kevin J Anderson is so widely hated. His story arcs is more grandiose than the arc he sets it in, and his characters must be more uber than the main ones.

Alyeska wrote:Furthermore I would like to point that that Farlander has a glarring error in his "history". How could he have been covering Luke one the DS run when Wedge himself states there were only two X-Wing survivors and we know only one other Y-Wing survived.

Easy. With no more possible bombing runs, the remaining escort squadrons (there were some squads dedicated to escort) just left before Luke scored his shot. There was nothing more they could do.

PainRack wrote:

Simon H.Johansen wrote: Ooops... I should probably have replied with "according to your logic, H. P. Lovecraft was..."

In any case, it is unfair to write off an author as lazy because he bases some of his characters upon himself or herself.

I can understand that self-insertion can be caused by the author lacking imagination and therefore looking at himself when creating characters - but this is not always the case, as evidenced by Lovecraft (who certainly had a very vivid imagination but still based characters upon himself).

This isn't about self insertion. Its about letting your character become the major monjo player.


Look at I Jedi. In it, Corran is god, he's the one who smash Exaar Kun power,allowing Luke Skywalker to triumph. He's the one Luke turns to for advice. He's the baddass kick arse, unlike anybody else, he doesn't need to fear the dark side.

Rule number 1 in the SW universe is plain and simple. You. do. not . Outuber. the Son of Skywalker.


Come to think of it, that's the exact same reason why Kevin J Anderson is so widely hated. His story arcs is more grandiose than the arc he sets it in, and his characters must be more uber than the main ones.

Okay. I rest my case.

Kuja wrote:Ever heard the term Mary Sue-ing? Or self-insertion? A lot of people think that Mike Stackpole did that with Corran.

Mary Sue-ing is creating a character that rarely/never meets an obstacle they can't handle.

When applied to Corran it's a rather trumped up charge. He's a standard Star Wars hero in that he usually has a plan and will always succeed some how. How many times has Luke utterly failed? But that's not to say he hasn't been bailed out and helped along numerous times, not to mention had a minor miracle or two save his ass.

Kuja wrote:Self insertion is creating a character that is mostly or totally based off your own personality.

Yes. But that in it self isn't a bad thing and more than a few authors have used it and well. [How Stravo Got His Groove Back ring any bells?] It's a problem when authors instead insert an over idealized version of themselves into the story that it gets to be a problem.

Kuja wrote:Both imply lazy writing, and a lot of people accuse Stackpole of it.

The first implies lazy writing (because I can name a few Mary-Sue-esque characters that are actually quite well done and entertaining) and the latter when done badly is lazy writing.

The two things are usually exagerated by the people that don't like Stackpole or the Corran character.

Stormbringer wrote:

Kuja wrote:Ever heard the term Mary Sue-ing? Or self-insertion? A lot of people think that Mike Stackpole did that with Corran.

Mary Sue-ing is creating a character that rarely/never meets an obstacle they can't handle.

When applied to Corran it's a rather trumped up charge. He's a standard Star Wars hero in that he usually has a plan and will always succeed some how. How many times has Luke utterly failed? But that's not to say he hasn't been bailed out and helped along numerous times, not to mention had a minor miracle or two save his ass.

This may not be applicable to the X-wing squadrons series(although the later timelines were .... suggestive), but Mary-sueing definitely applies to I Jedi. Hell, even the title suggest that


As for Luke, there is a reason why the EU sucks.Unlike in the movie where real character development and growth occurs, Luke in the novelisation appears to be Superman. We all know the standard Superman fare.

Superman meets dire threat to the world, for some strange reason, his uber powers are matched equally, or even outmatched by the villian powers,strenght,wits or outright evilness but in the end, Superman receives a boost of unexplained power/strenght/intelligence/foresight and defeats the foe with some help from a one off character of the day(who may provide that one clue that boost the above said power/strenght etc etc etc.

PainRack wrote:As for Luke, there is a reason why the EU sucks.Unlike in the movie where real character development and growth occurs, Luke in the novelisation appears to be Superman. We all know the standard Superman fare.

I would tentatively suggest that this phenomena doesn't occur in the Thrawn trilogy, and the duology as well, where Zahn seems to be aware of the Luke-as-Superman trend in the EU, and wrote the character with a rejection of this in mind.

Lord of the Farce wrote:IIRC, it was because he was handicapped by the fact didn't want to fly against Tycho and the other Rogues with deadly intent.

Corran's fighter has ion cannons, so he didn't need to restrain himself to take them out. He even flat-out states that he can't keep up with Tycho's thought processes while reading his mind.

Are we looking at the whole package or just raw piloting skill? For example, Wedge's piloting skill seems about even with, maybe even a very small margin below, Baron Fel's, but his tactical abilities more than make up for it (judging by their admittedly-inconclusive duel in the X-Wing: Rogue Squadron comics). Similarly, based on comments about Tycho in Starfighters of Adumar, Tycho's piloting skill is almost even with Wedge's and he seems to have slightly better shooting accuracy (Wedge notes with admiration that Tycho's shots seem to have surgical precision), but again Wedge seems to outmatch Tycho tactically.

This next part's getting off-topic for the thread (as are many of the posts) and the mods might want to split this thread.

Stormbringer wrote:When applied to Corran it's a rather trumped up charge. He's a standard Star Wars hero in that he usually has a plan and will always succeed some how. How many times has Luke utterly failed? But that's not to say he hasn't been bailed out and helped along numerous times, not to mention had a minor miracle or two save his ass.

I think part of the problem is that some readers take Corran's assessments of himself as being the way the author wants you to see the character rather than evidence that Corran's so self-confident that it sometimes badly clouds his judgment.

Let's take a few of the comments made in this thread.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:He's a lazy writer because Coran is just Stackpole running around in the Galaxy, showing how much better at everything he is than the other major characters, something most fanfiction writers know not to do...

Actually he comes off as inferior to major characters most of the time. He's not as good a pilot as Wedge or Tycho even when using the Force, he's not as capable a Jedi as Luke, not as knowledgeable about criminal activity as Han or Lando, etc. He often thinks he's better and is annoyed when he's corrected on this point (such as his poor reaction to Wedge's comment that "You're no Luke Skywalker").

Master of Ossus wrote:Corran has no real flaws, and thus fails as a character by failing to allow readers to bond with him.

No real flaws? His most obvious is his arrogance, which led him into numerous situations that he needed to be bailed out of (see examples below).

Painrack wrote:In it, Corran is god, he's the one who smash Exaar Kun power,allowing Luke Skywalker to triumph.

Except he misses a very basic clue and is thus almost killed by Kun before Mara Jade arrives to save the day. And during the climactic battle with the Jen'Saraii, he realizes that Luke is such a vastly superior fighter (when he's paying attention to what he's doing, unlike their earlier sparring match) that all Luke needs him for "is to hold his cloak."

Painrack wrote:He's the one Luke turns to for advice.

Luke turned to him during the investigation into the deaths at the Jedi Academy because Corran used to be a cop. Is this any different from asking Leia for info about politics? And when Luke's put into a coma by Kun, Corran realizes he drastically misjudged his enemy and would have seen this coming if he hadn't been so confident in his initial conclusions that he ignored important clues.

He's the baddass kick arse, unlike anybody else,

Which is why he needed Luke to save his ass from the Jen'Saraii, Mara to save him from Kun, Elegos to bail him out after his headlong rush to confront the Hutt crimelord, his fellow Jedi to save him from the Vong during the first part of Stackpole's NJO duology, etc..

he doesn't need to fear the dark side.

And after he gave Luke that lecture, he later realized how wrong he was while infiltrating the pirate group and even turned to Elegos for help. There half a chapter later in I, Jedi where Corran's basically freaking out because he realized just how close he came to falling despite his speech to Luke.

Stofsk wrote:I would tentatively suggest that this phenomena doesn't occur in the Thrawn trilogy, and the duology as well, where Zahn seems to be aware of the Luke-as-Superman trend in the EU, and wrote the character with a rejection of this in mind.

Parts of I, Jedi and the Zahn/Thrawn Duology (talk about your Mary-Sues, ha ha) seem deliberately geared to un-ubering Luke while maintaining continuity with previous events. In fact, I wondered if they'd collaborated on that part of their respective storylines since some of their "fixes" to various events seemed very strongly connected (such as Mara Jade's comments about Luke and the Force in both I, Jedi and Vision of the Future).

-- Joe Momma