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Lazy Raptor wrote:

Dorsk 81 wrote:

Lazy Raptor wrote:Two rifles. Same caliber bullets with identical destructive capabilities.
One's a bolt-action, the other's an automatic. Hmm...

So you're saying that hatred, anger and fear are the same as compassion and peace? Hmm....

The morality of Force manipulation is an entirely seperate issue, and one I think is an entirely artificial construction of the Jedi Order. Whether you like the NJO or not, it does give some startling insight into the nature of the Force.

Ok, if you wanna talk about the NJO then look at Verege had to say, the Dark side is the RAW force, which goes again to prove you are contradicting yourself saying it is refined. Get your argument straight.

The key to tapping into the power of the Force is emotion. It causes it to flow faster and easier than anything else. If this power is used in a moral fashion, no matter how dark the motivation, and the user has ultimate control over his or her emotion it makes for a better, stronger and more sophisticated Force user. The darkness is not a property of the Force, it is in the user. The Force is an energy field, it is niether good nor evil.

Lazy Raptor wrote:The key to tapping into the power of the Force is emotion. It causes it to flow faster and easier than anything else. If this power is used in a moral fashion, no matter how dark the motivation, and the user has ultimate control over his or her emotion it makes for a better, stronger and more sophisticated Force user. The darkness is not a property of the Force, it is in the user. The Force is an energy field, it is niether good nor evil.

*Sigh* The Dark side means you HAVE NO CONTROL. It's just hatred, etc. To quote Yoda "Control, control, you must learn control!" Of what his dick!? No, the Force fool!!! Only by concentration can you control the Force. Thats why we see them closing their eyes and alike, in order to focus!

Yes, of course the key is control. If you control your emotions you can use them to increase your power by an order of magnitude. I am not a dark side apologist, I am passing a judgement on which ideology I find more likely to overcome the other. Is it possible to attain a ballance between the sterile telekinetic manipulation of the Jedi and the rabid violence of the Sith?

Lazy Raptor wrote:Yes, of course the key is control.

Your back peddling, emotion or control? Control is the way to master the force instead of letting your emotions control you, which is the dark side.

If you control your emotions you can use them to increase your power by an order of magnitude.

Which is the light side of the force, not the dark.

I am not a dark side apologist, I am passing a judgement on which ideology I find more likely to overcome the other.

Which is the light because as I remember it was the light that over came the dark in Anakin/Vader.

Is it possible to attain a ballance between the sterile telekinetic manipulation of the Jedi and the rabid violence of the Sith?

Hmm, thats odd, because I thought Doku and Vader used telekinetic energy to throw things at Yoda and Luke... Telekinesise (sp?) has nothing to do with light or dark.

Is anyone going to seriously attempt to argue the prospect that Darth Tyranus didn't exhibit control (and I'm talking swordsmanship here) in his duel with Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda? Please. Spare me the pro light side propaganda, "the dark side is all raw power blah blah blah ..."

Anyway, I say Anakin, with a view to his accomplishments in Episode III (see spoiler thread), as well as his performance against Dooku (in both film and novelization) which is a prequel to them.

Control of one's emotions is not just supressing them like the Jedi do.
What I'm talking about is using one's emotions to enhance their power, while at the same time not allowing their emotions to consume them.

As for the telekinesis, I was making an analogy to compare the defensive nature of light side skills verses the offensive nature of dark side skills.

Vympel wrote:Is anyone going to seriously attempt to argue the prospect that Darth Tyranus didn't exhibit control in his duel with Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda? Please. Spare me the pro light side propaganda, "the dark side is all raw power blah blah blah ..."

Off the top of my head (in other words complete bollocks) the only thing I could say would be that he wasn't completely in controled or focused because he was caught off guard by the little force wall trick Anakin pulled in the novel.
Although swordsmanship has nothing to do with the Force or Yoda would be the most powerful swordsman, not Mace and we know that Tyranus was an extremely skilled swordsman. It was the fencing style or something he'd mastered wasn't it?
Flame that to hell if you want. Just a hypotheises.
(Just for the record, I'm not pro-light side, but it is stronger.)

I didn't particularly like the novelization but if I remember correctly I believe it did say something about the peculiar nature of Dooku's swordsmanship skills. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that while modern Jedi used a style best for engaging blaster wielding foes Dooku used a more ancient form of fencing, the sole purpose of which was to engage other swordfighters.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Control of one's emotions is not just supressing them like the Jedi do.

Yea, thats right, silly me, Yoda said "Suprresion, suprresion, you must learn suprresion!" The Jedi CONTROL their emotions.

What I'm talking about is using one's emotions to enhance their power, while at the same time not allowing their emotions to consume them.

In ESB Yoda states the anger, fear and aggression will consume you.

Yoda wrote:Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, CONSUME you it will. Like it did Obi Wans apprentice.

Lazy Raptor wrote:I didn't particularly like the novelization but if I remember correctly I believe it did say something about the peculiar nature of Dooku's swordsmanship skills. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that while modern Jedi used a style best for engaging blaster wielding foes Dooku used a more ancient form of fencing, the sole purpose of which was to engage other swordfighters.

Can't and won't debate you on that as I don't know all the facts, I've only heard things, which is why the statment is a hypotheises and labeled thusly.

Dorsk 81 wrote:

Lazy Raptor wrote:I didn't particularly like the novelization but if I remember correctly I believe it did say something about the peculiar nature of Dooku's swordsmanship skills. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that while modern Jedi used a style best for engaging blaster wielding foes Dooku used a more ancient form of fencing, the sole purpose of which was to engage other swordfighters.

Can't and won't debate you on that as I don't know all the facts, I've only heard things, which is why the statment is a hypotheises and labeled thusly.

Wasn't meant to be a debate! I thought you wanted info on Dooku's fencing style.

Dorsk 81 wrote: Off the top of my head (in other words complete bollocks) the only thing I could say would be that he wasn't completely in controled or focused because he was caught off guard by the little force wall trick Anakin pulled in the novel.

Present evidence that if he had been completely controlled/focused he wouldn't have been caught off guard. As I recall, Obi-Wan got cut up.

Although swordsmanship has nothing to do with the Force or Yoda would be the most powerful swordsman, not Mace

Patently absurd. The force is an intergral part of Jedi swordsmanship. Present evidence that Mace is the most powerful swordsman.

and we know that Tyranus was an extremely skilled swordsman. It was the fencing style or something he'd mastered wasn't it?
Flame that to hell if you want. Just a hypotheises.
(Just for the record, I'm not pro-light side, but it is stronger.)

I don't see how it's stronger. What battles has it won in the films? One. (Obi Wan vs Darth Maul). I can't speak for EU though.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Wasn't meant to be a debate! I thought you wanted info on Dooku's fencing style.

No, I meant on whether it was because of his skill as a swordsman that made him appeared to be in control.

Do you ever see a fighting Jedi swinging randomly in a rabbid frenzy. They always look cool and collected... Well, at least coordinated when they fight. Their reactions become automatic, instinctive. Dooku's style is probably nothing more than aesthetic elegence, meaning he isn't in any more or less control because of it.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Do you ever see a fighting Jedi swinging randomly in a rabbid frenzy.

Vader in the final portion of the fight in ESB, Luke in ROTJ.

They always look cool and collected... Well, at least coordinated when they fight. Their reactions become automatic, instinctive. Dooku's style is probably nothing more than aesthetic elegence, meaning he isn't in any more or less control because of it.

I didn't say more or less in control, I only was saying that I didn't agree with the characterization of the dark side.

Vympel wrote:Present evidence that if he had been completely controlled/focused he wouldn't have been caught off guard. As I recall, Obi-Wan got cut up.

Granted. I think it says in there it was a tactic rarely used.

Patently absurd. The force is an intergral part of Jedi swordsmanship. Present evidence that Mace is the most powerful swordsman.

Only in precog. of knowing what your opponent is going to do which is why the Jedi have a harder time against battling the YV.
Lucas has stated the Mace is the superior swordsman.

I don't see how it's stronger. What battles has it won in the films? One. (Obi Wan vs Darth Maul). I can't speak for EU though.

Apart from the Obi-Maul battle all the other duals I can think of were ended due to:
Widthdrawel, Doku needed to escape with the plans.
Submission, Obi let Vader win, although thats not saying he couldn't have beaten him eventualy, although he was beaten by Obi before as we'll see in Episode III.
Or
The opponent stopped,Vader stopped on Bespin because he didn't want to kill Luke although he was defeated, but not Jedi, Vader even says "You are not a Jedi yet" and in RotJ Luke didn't want to kill vader, but he did defeat him, defenition is a little blurred as to whether he was a Jedi when he started fighting Vader or at the end of their battle.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:What?

But it isn't stronger, just easier. If some interpret that as meaning it's stronger, that's not my problem.

ARGH FUCK ME

After coffee and three days of final exams, I must've lost my ability to read.

I could've sworn your post said "but its still stronger." I'm a dipshit.

Dark Jedi and Sith can be very much in control of their emotions.
They are not, however, in control of their morality.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Do you ever see a fighting Jedi swinging randomly in a rabbid frenzy.

Luke at the end of RotJ, but that was probably due to shades of the darkside from Vaders mention of Leia, which is why he regained his composiure before he killed Vader.

They always look cool and collected... Well, at least coordinated when they fight. Their reactions become automatic, instinctive.

Some of it is instinct, but most is precog. which is, as I said, why they had a harder time defeating the YV warriors.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Dark Jedi and Sith can be very much in control of their emotions.
They are not, however, in control of their morality.

Evidence. Canon, from Yodas mouth says it consumes you.

Yes, I know the movies are cannon. But what is said in the movies is not literal, inerrant truth. And forgive me for not taking at face value the words of one of the Jedi Council's most conservative members.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Yes, I know the movies are cannon. But what is said in the movies is not literal, inerrant truth.

Funny, Palpatine looked pretty consumed to me as did Anakins spectrein RotJ, he was meant to be 45, not 60 which he looked IMO. Kyp was also consumed by his hate and the dark side to the point where he destroyed an entire solar system and was "aged beyond his years" because of it.
Cannon:
Lightside beats Dark: Anakin rejoined the light, the light beat the dark.
The dark side consumes you: <evidence listed above>

End.

Lazy Raptor wrote:Do you ever see a fighting Jedi swinging randomly in a rabbid frenzy. They always look cool and collected... Well, at least coordinated when they fight. Their reactions become automatic, instinctive. Dooku's style is probably nothing more than aesthetic elegence, meaning he isn't in any more or less control because of it.

Attack, Of, The, Clones.

Hell, we even see this in The Phantom Menace. When George promised us more fancy ligthsabre fights, I sure as hell didn't expect this. Fuck, the Jedi in the arena look like the average ligthsabre fan wildly swinging his thingy around.

Why should the Light Side, or the Dark Side be inherently stronger? Is Good "stronger" than Evil? While Good always "triumph" over evil in most mythologies, there has never been a single philosophy that states Good is stronger than evil and there is no proof that SW has revolutionised this.


Of course, unless you count Spaceball "Because good is dumb"