StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Admiral Piett can raise his flag aboard any capital vessel of his choosing. It is the Executor's captain which is tied to the command of that vessel by assignment. Admiral Piett commands Death Squadron, and the *Sector Group deployment (?) at the Sanctuary Moon of Endor.

Your point is supported by the fact that in Shadows of the Empire, or at least its novelization, Piett is not in command of the Executor; rather it is another Imperial admiral whose name escapes my memory at this point in time.

It's probable that Vader trusted him and wanted Piett commanding his personal ship at such a crucial battle.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: In any case, the comment doesn't really make any sense unless they mean Executor-class command ships. Han, ignorant of Jedi extra-sensory perception, believed Luke was jumping to the conclusion of Vader's presence because they sighted an Executor-class command ship, which Han tried to reassure Luke that there "are a lot of command ships." In other words, there are enough Executor-class command ships that one doesn't have to jump to conclude that the Executor-class command ship sighted was the Executor herself.

*Note: IIRC, the number of Imperial-class Star Destroyers at the Battle of Endor was 22. Plus the unconfirmed "communications ship" and the Executor herself, brings the fleet number to 24. This is the minimum Star Destroyer complement of a single Sector Group. I theorize that the combination of vessels at Endor, while not necessarily the local Sector Group, is a standard naval deployment of a Sector Group, substituting the larger communications ship and Executor for two of the Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

Interestingly, the Executor may really not be the Executor at all. We do know that the command ship seen transported/escorted Emperor Palpatine to the Death Star, so, we are forced to either assume that Palpy commandered Vader ship to transport him in or that another command ship transported Palpy in and Vader later took command of the ship and Death Squadron.


Also, according to the ROTJ radio drama, the following order was given.
"Send the Sector fleet to the far end of the moon", indicating that we have it canonically that a sector fleet was present at Endor. If we assume that Death Squadron remains at 5 starships, that would indicate that a sector fleet has at least 17 ISDs at its disposal.

Now I am not sure but there seems to be length differences of the executor in ESB and RotJ. Also it is true that Death Squardren only had 5-8 stardestroyers not including the Executer. But if it was not the Executor at the battle of Endor then what ship was it, and would the real Executor still be out there?

PainRack wrote:Interestingly, the Executor may really not be the Executor at all. We do know that the command ship seen transported/escorted Emperor Palpatine to the Death Star, so, we are forced to either assume that Palpy commandered Vader ship to transport him in or that another command ship transported Palpy in and Vader later took command of the ship and Death Squadron.

Yes we do. Official tells us it was the Executor. I don't have time for purist bullshit.

PainRack wrote:Also, according to the ROTJ radio drama, the following order was given.
"Send the Sector fleet to the far end of the moon", indicating that we have it canonically that a sector fleet was present at Endor. If we assume that Death Squadron remains at 5 starships, that would indicate that a sector fleet has at least 17 ISDs at its disposal.

A sector fleet contains 24 Star Destroyers. It isn't necessarily the Sector Fleet itself, but a Sector Fleet-style naval deployment could've been hatched from Death Squadron and other forces, combined with the comm. ship and Executor for the 24 x number.

JME2 wrote:
...We can also assume that the Vong's surprise attack on the Remnant cost them heavily not just in manpower, but ships too. We know that the Chimerea was destroyed and I'm also willing to assume that the unamed SSD that we saw in 'Destiny's Way' was also destroyed, since it wasn't seen again in the renmaining NJO books....

The Chimerea was destroyed?!

The Chimerea was destroyed?!

That pisses me off too. That was one of the coolest SD. It had everything, and even a cloaking device. Oh how we will miss it.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Yes we do. Official tells us it was the Executor. I don't have time for purist bullshit.

Official infomation tells us that the ship name was the Executor. It does not state that this is the physically same ship in TESB. And by same ship, I also mean a refitted ship, that has seen changes in the engine bank and bridge.

So, it is entirely possible that Han Solo comments to Luke was partially based on the feeling that the command ship was physically different from the command ship at Hoth.

PainRack wrote:Also, according to the ROTJ radio drama, the following order was given.
"Send the Sector fleet to the far end of the moon", indicating that we have it canonically that a sector fleet was present at Endor. If we assume that Death Squadron remains at 5 starships, that would indicate that a sector fleet has at least 17 ISDs at its disposal.

A sector fleet contains 24 Star Destroyers. It isn't necessarily the Sector Fleet itself, but a Sector Fleet-style naval deployment could've been hatched from Death Squadron and other forces, combined with the comm. ship and Executor for the 24 x number.

Unlikely. The Truce at Bakura Sourcebook also tends to support the idea that the ships present was drawn from the local sector forces and it seems to suggest that all available ships were sent.

Its impossible to argue whether this means a sector fleet only has 17-18 ISDs.
For the pro side, Endor was stuck in the middle of nowhere and it should be noted that the OOB was an idealised version, and no real life OOB ever meets the textbook version.
For the opposition, any number of ships could have been down. IRL, a navy only has approximately 2/3 of its ships operational at any time and there could be other commitments that prevented the remainding ISDs from delpoying to Endor.


So, to make it more clear, all we can conclude is that from ROTJ, a sector fleet at the minimal has at least 17 operationally ready ISDs.

PainRack wrote:Official infomation tells us that the ship name was the Executor. It does not state that this is the physically same ship in TESB. And by same ship, I also mean a refitted ship, that has seen changes in the engine bank and bridge.

So, it is entirely possible that Han Solo comments to Luke was partially based on the feeling that the command ship was physically different from the command ship at Hoth.

I've heard a lot of bullshit from you, but you're going to have to clean up and clear this up before I can begin to tear it apart.

PainRack wrote:Unlikely. The Truce at Bakura Sourcebook also tends to support the idea that the ships present was drawn from the local sector forces and it seems to suggest that all available ships were sent.

Possible, and the other two SDs were withheld. However, the presence of Vader's personal vessels, the vessel he arrived on, the Executor, Admiral Piett, the various Grand Admirals and Admirals, the Chimeara, and the Communications Ship suggests otherwise.

The TaBS is probably tainted by poor Rebel intel.

PainRack wrote:Its impossible to argue whether this means a sector fleet only has 17-18 ISDs.

Dipshit. You're pulling from WEG. They SAY a Sector Group is 24 ISDs minimum.

PainRack wrote:For the pro side, Endor was stuck in the middle of nowhere and it should be noted that the OOB was an idealised version, and no real life OOB ever meets the textbook version.

Have any evidence that the minimums should be thrown out despite evidence that Endor was in the Outer Rim and part of the Oversector Outer possibly, and also garnering a Sector Group due to the DS project itself? Despite the fact that the most data can be retained if that quote means that more Sectors are above average?

PainRack wrote:For the opposition, any number of ships could have been down. IRL, a navy only has approximately 2/3 of its ships operational at any time and there could be other commitments that prevented the remainding ISDs from delpoying to Endor.

Since the force seems to actually just be a Sector Group-scale deployment of ships gathered from various elite commands, I don't think so.

PainRack wrote:So, to make it more clear, all we can conclude is that from ROTJ, a sector fleet at the minimal has at least 17 operationally ready ISDs.

You don't know how many ISDs from Death Squadron were there.

PainRack wrote:

nightmare wrote:Since Luke said "Vader's on that ship." in ROTJ, it doesn't seem like it.

This line is indicative of more SSDs in existance (which we know, but only by EU sources), since the Executor was present at Hoth. They should have realized it was Vader's ship - but if there's several others looking exactly like it, they couldn't tell short of matching it with a databank of known vessels, or perhaps read its energy signature with sensors or something like that. But not just by looking at it.

That's illogical. You're suggesting that Han statement does not refer to the Executor specifically, only because Han shouldn't have said that Vader isn't on that ship as he had no way to check.

Beside, according to some, the Executor in ROTJ is slightly different from the Executor in TESB in terms of bridge design as well as engine banks.

Illogical? "There are a lot of command ships." That obviously means more than just the command ship he's looking at. I'm saying that because he demonstrably didn't know it was the Executor, there must be other ships that look like it. Simple, no? I think you are misunderstanding me somehow.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

PainRack wrote:Official infomation tells us that the ship name was the Executor. It does not state that this is the physically same ship in TESB. And by same ship, I also mean a refitted ship, that has seen changes in the engine bank and bridge.

So, it is entirely possible that Han Solo comments to Luke was partially based on the feeling that the command ship was physically different from the command ship at Hoth.

I've heard a lot of bullshit from you, but you're going to have to clean up and clear this up before I can begin to tear it apart.

And? Is my stand that a physically different ship present at Endor was what prompted Han statement invalid?

Possible, and the other two SDs were withheld. However, the presence of Vader's personal vessels, the vessel he arrived on, the Executor, Admiral Piett, the various Grand Admirals and Admirals, the Chimeara, and the Communications Ship suggests otherwise.

The TaBS is probably tainted by poor Rebel intel.

So, we're supposed to believe that the Emperor and Piett orders to send the sector fleet is based on miscomprehension?

Dipshit. You're pulling from WEG. They SAY a Sector Group is 24 ISDs minimum.

They say a OOB for a sector Group should have 24 ISDs min. However, IRL, it is unlikely for every formation to meets its min manning levels, especially for a sector group that's stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Or as I have already stated, not all of the ships in the sector fleet transited to Endor.

And so as to sum up, from Endor, we know that a Sector fleet has at least 17 ISDs at its disposal to commit to any front at any time.

Since the force seems to actually just be a Sector Group-scale deployment of ships gathered from various elite commands, I don't think so.

Except that the EU also states that the Death Squadron and the sector fleet was present only. We know that various Grand Admirals were present and fought in that Battle but may I point out that its more likely that they took command of any ship in the sector group, as opposed to bringing in their own elite commands?

The weight of evidence is in favour of Death Squadron and Admiral Pietts having operational control over the Imperial naval forces at Endor, and the Grand Admirals took control over the Sector fleet.

You don't know how many ISDs from Death Squadron were there.

So, we take the min requirement, 5 ISDs instead.

I dislike arguing around a nebulous topic, so, let me post my version of what I believe occured at Endor. Then you can post yours, we compare notes and see what's new that's thrown up.


Admiral Piett is the commander of Death Squadron, as well as all Imperial naval forces in the area. The Emperoro orders Piett to send the sector fleet to the far end of the moon and he does so. The sector fleet is comprised of the various elements of the local sector group that has been gathered together. Death Squadron remains on station, so as to provide the illusion that Death Squadron is all the ships defending the Death Star.

Once the trap is sprung, two squadrons of the sector fleet moves into position to envelop the enemy, each respective squadron commanded by a Grand Admiral. The GAD on board the Death Star does absolutely nothing to contribute towards the fight.

Upon the destruction of the Executor and the Death star, the resulting chaos and communications degradation hinders C&C. Upon the death of Paelloen captain, he takes command of the ship and orders the elements attached to the ISD to withdraw from combat. In the resulting confusion, an entire squadron worth of ISDs follows Paelloen away from the fight, leaving behind the elements attached to the GAD to fight against the Rebels.

Regarding whether or not the Emperor's grand admirals arrived by themselves or with their flagships and commands: The only indication is that "Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals" states that "as a testament to Teshik's brilliance, the battle raged for another three hours before his Star Destroyer Eleemosynary succumbed to overwhelming ion cannon fire" (p. 48).

As can be seen, the only reference is the pronominal adjective "his" in reference to HIMS Eleemosynary. This could mean either (a.) that she is "his" in the sense that it is GADM Teshik's flagship and accompanied him to Endor; or (b.) that she is "his" in the sense that he has hauled up his flag aboard her and taken personal command at Endor. The evidence is inconclusive either way.

PUBLIUS

JME2 wrote:We know that the Chimerea was destroyed

No it wasn't.

it was just heavily dameged during the battle for bastion , after this Pelleon states that he was only on the Right to Rule untill the Chimerea(SP?) was fully repaired.

Well that is very good news then.

My bad. There are just so many NJO details that it's difficult to remember all of them.