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Techno_Union wrote:The only part I semi-liked of Darksaber was when Daala had to attack Terradoc's fortress, that part was the only interesting part of the book. But right after that I was hating the book.

The part where she killed off the warriors is note-worthy, but the fucker killed off Crix Madine! It was a shitty death, too! He died for nothing!

Darth Yoshi wrote:

Techno_Union wrote:The only part I semi-liked of Darksaber was when Daala had to attack Terradoc's fortress, that part was the only interesting part of the book. But right after that I was hating the book.

The part where she killed off the warriors is note-worthy, but the fucker killed off Crix Madine! It was a shitty death, too! He died for nothing!

Y'know, sometimes people actually die for no good reason.

Yeah, but it was a shitty death on top of that.

Ack, my previous post should say "warlords," not "warriors."

It sure wasn't a Star Wars death. When you die in Star Wars, you're supposed to do it killing the enemy or saving another characters life. Not trying to get of a laser tube before rocks smash it.

wow. my brain actually put scar tissue over all that. I only remember it when you say it.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote: Kernel, did you actually burn your copy of Darksaber?

On one hand, I must commend you for giving a KJA book exactly what it deserves, but on the other, I must chastise you for commiting what in my eyes is a sin (burning a book)...

Yes I really did burn it.

If you think that burning a KJA book is bad, listen to this one. In high school, during a class on bible study (private school) a friend of mine tore a page out of the New Testament, rolled it up into a cigar shape and, before the teacher could stop him, lit it on the electric heater and started puffing. I don't think I've laughed so hard in my entire life.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: The only (kind of) saving grace was that the Dorsk 81 (I think he was the nexus) incinerated himself. I remember actually being happy about that.

Oi! I didn't spend the last day or so waiting for a Dorsk reference just so it could be shit on!

Er yea, anyway, on topic, you're right, his lack of writting skills didn't make me sympithise either, I just thought he was cool....

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:It sure wasn't a Star Wars death. When you die in Star Wars, you're supposed to do it killing the enemy or saving another characters life. Not trying to get of a laser tube before rocks smash it.

I'm not sure how he wrote it, but I have to say that adding the occasional ignominous death adds a lot of realism. Just because you are elite doesn't mean you can't just disappear and go KIA.

[rant]I actually am quite annoyed at overusage of the other state. The heroes in Star Wars not only die rarely, too rarely, but they had to die tragic. Heroes simply can't die to a no name character.

One of the examples in Starfighters of Adumar (otherwise rated as pretty good.) Instead of doing something smart, like using the LASER CANNONS to kill off Tycho for good, the TIE Defender chose his ion cannons for no apparent explicable reason, thus ensuring Tycho lives and making his OWN death count for nothing when Wedge figured out how to kill it. I doubt there was ever an NR starfighter that made a similar mistake of weapons choice when killing the Imperials.[/rant]

He's okay at actually WRITING (he has some talent, there), but the guy has NO imagination to speak of. He recycles plots (most notably using the Dune sandworm idea AGAIN in Jedi Search), uses a superweapon in every novel, came up with a wannabe-Thrawn that fell flat on her boobs, uses the same dumb pun over and over again (that one became my pet-peeve with him--how many times can you use the "joke" between the words "Knight" and "Night?"), his characters are two-dimensional at best, he CLEARLY doesn't understand the SW universe, or actual science (among his worst crimes was a DS-style weapon destroyed by ASTEROIDS!), killed Crix Madine for no reason whatsoever, and is a minimalist of the highest order.

Stofsk wrote:

Darth Yoshi wrote:

Techno_Union wrote:The only part I semi-liked of Darksaber was when Daala had to attack Terradoc's fortress, that part was the only interesting part of the book. But right after that I was hating the book.

The part where she killed off the warriors is note-worthy, but the fucker killed off Crix Madine! It was a shitty death, too! He died for nothing!

Y'know, sometimes people actually die for no good reason.

Crix's death was unusually crappy. His squadmate blew herself up in an effort to save him. Fifty plus pages were spent developing his mission. Then he's executed by a fat Hutt warlord? His death did not serve to advance the plot in ANY way, shape, or form. He didn't get a good-bye speech, he didn't go down for a reason, he just died. If you're going to kill of a character in the SW universe, there are acceptable ways to do that. You develop a character so people care about him, and then you kill him off. As it was, Crix's death served only to take up another 75 pages of the book, and was therefore a wasted death. If you're going to kill someone, do it properly. Either make a conscious effort to develop them so their death means something, or don't. KJA got caught in the unhappy medium where I didn't give a damn if Crix were to die, because he wasn't helping the book along and didn't have a personality (not even a professional soldier one), yet he had a good fifty pages spent on his "development" for nothing. It was not only a bad SW death (in SW, main characters are supposed to go down for something), but it was a bad literary death, too. It was totally wasted and had minimal impact.

Stormbringer wrote:I'm not so sure how badly he screwed up continuity, some of the basic plot seems reasonable. But there's no question that the Dune prequels are horribly, horribly written.

Hows this for continuity. In House Atreides, the Harkonnens are said to have created a device that doesn't even appear until God Emperor, which took place thousands of years later.

Defiant wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:I'm not so sure how badly he screwed up continuity, some of the basic plot seems reasonable. But there's no question that the Dune prequels are horribly, horribly written.

Hows this for continuity. In House Atreides, the Harkonnens are said to have created a device that doesn't even appear until God Emperor, which took place thousands of years later.

Maybe they're just a bit slow on the uptake.

Howedar wrote:Superweapons. Many sizes, many shapes. Some on his back.


Cookie to whoever gets the reference. I'd be astonished if anyone gets it.

MST3K, "Manos: The Hands of Fate." Now where's my cookie?

Wow. I'm impressed, I figured that would be so far out of left field that NOBODY would get it.

what r u all talking about ?

opps my bad ur all talking about dune opps by the way i love the dune books

RogueIce wrote:

Defiant wrote:There was a Star Wars book (can't remember the title) where a small group of Jedi apprentices standing on a temple that amplified their Force powers were able to send a group of 7 Star Destroyers (yes, Star Destroyers) out of the system using telekinesis.

Darksaber is the name.

Oh, and I think it was eleven ISDs, not seven.

Seventeen ISD's to be precise.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Stofsk wrote:

Darth Yoshi wrote:The part where she killed off the warriors is note-worthy, but the fucker killed off Crix Madine! It was a shitty death, too! He died for nothing!

Y'know, sometimes people actually die for no good reason.

Crix's death was unusually crappy. His squadmate blew herself up in an effort to save him. Fifty plus pages were spent developing his mission. Then he's executed by a fat Hutt warlord? His death did not serve to advance the plot in ANY way, shape, or form. He didn't get a good-bye speech, he didn't go down for a reason, he just died. If you're going to kill of a character in the SW universe, there are acceptable ways to do that. You develop a character so people care about him, and then you kill him off. As it was, Crix's death served only to take up another 75 pages of the book, and was therefore a wasted death. If you're going to kill someone, do it properly. Either make a conscious effort to develop them so their death means something, or don't. KJA got caught in the unhappy medium where I didn't give a damn if Crix were to die, because he wasn't helping the book along and didn't have a personality (not even a professional soldier one), yet he had a good fifty pages spent on his "development" for nothing. It was not only a bad SW death (in SW, main characters are supposed to go down for something), but it was a bad literary death, too. It was totally wasted and had minimal impact.

Exactly. It also started a train of quiet, non-inspiring deaths. First, Mon Mothma dies before NJO and we don't even find out until 'Star by Star', then anakin (whose passing negates Chewie's sacrifice and makes it worthless) and finally, Ackbar kicks the can on his sickbed (when he should have gone out in a blaze of glory; the only reason James Luceno isn't receiving death threats from me is because of the Luke vs. Shimrra smackdown).

Thank god we've still got Bel Iblis...

One ISD is too many. Whats with the idea that a funky echoing temple is going to magically boost force power? Oh well, look who we're talking about here.

Falcon wrote:One ISD is too many. Whats with the idea that a funky echoing temple is going to magically boost force power? Oh well, look who we're talking about here.

The Yavin 4 temples were built by Exar Kun to do just that: Amplify force power into an indivudal - and in the case of Dorsk 81, get bbq'd...

JME2 wrote:Exactly. It also started a train of quiet, non-inspiring deaths. First, Mon Mothma dies before NJO and we don't even find out until 'Star by Star', then anakin (whose passing negates Chewie's sacrifice and makes it worthless) and finally, Ackbar kicks the can on his sickbed (when he should have gone out in a blaze of glory; the only reason James Luceno isn't receiving death threats from me is because of the Luke vs. Shimrra smackdown).

Thank god we've still got Bel Iblis...

Sickbed? That's a realistic ending. Guys, I'm not trying to defend KJA, but really, not every hero dies on the battlefield. Old people retire because they aren't up to it anymore. Even in the time of BFC, Ackbar was beginning to have trouble breathing in standard atmospheres, and has already relinquished Front Line Command to a Nantz. Several years later, what shape is he in to command? It takes good health to do front-line command (the premier way to die in a blaze of glory.)

Ackbar is also a symbol. If he went out and lost, yet survived, it would hardly be good for the failing New Republic. Even a glorious death from him would have unpredictable results on morale. Realistically, it is not exactly wise to send him back to the front.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Sickbed? That's a realistic ending.

I wanna stop you right there. This is Star Wars, not real life. Star Wars isn't supposed to be realistic; it's supposed to be fantastic and far flung. With heroes and heroics abound (in case you missed ANH Luke SINGLE-HANDEDLY killed the Death Star, now that's Star Wars). Heroes in fantasy are supposed to die making a difference, not snoozing. Especially a hero like Admiral Ackbar.

... but we each want something different in stories. For me, the occasional splash of realism would be nice.

Very few, if any, complained in ANH about Luke single handedly killing the Death Star with a pair of protorps using the Force to assist. But when TPM came about and Anakin Skywalker did the same to the droid army and ship, it was a hell of a lot more controversial.

I could argue that the tragedy is Ackbar dying in his deathbed, wishing so much to make a difference one last time, but he's too weak to do it anymore.

I didn't mind Ackbar's death, I didn't mind Ikrit's death, I didn't mind Anakin's death, and even though I thought the execution was poor I didn't mind the idea of Chewie's death. I did mind Crix's death, because it's NOT HOW IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN. If Crix needed to die, then fine, kill him off. As it was, though, Crix's death did not advance the plot and NO ONE managed to bond with him before he died. No one cared nearly as much as they should have. Madine was a war hero. His death was totally pointless both from a literary perspective and a SW perspective. There's no way he should have died TOTALLY failing a mission, like that. His death should have accomplished something. I realize that's not always how things work in real life, but it is how things are supposed to work in Star Wars. Heroes die in a blaze of glory, or they die quietly and at peace. That's the way things are supposed to happen.

I notice that Kazuaki is defending Crix's death because it was "realistic," however this rebuttal is off the mark for two reasons:

1. This is Star Wars and not real life.
2. Even if you DID want to make Star Wars more realistic, killing Madine in the way he died did NOTHING to further that goal. Crix's death was almost laughable in how poorly it was set up. He get's brought before fat slob, who reveals his evil plan to take over the world (ala James Bond villains), and finally gets around to killing him. That's not realistic: it doesn't make any sense. If KJA had wanted to make it realistic, he should have killed Crix in the corridor, and he should have just been shot. Alternatively, he could have captured him and then later killed him (though, frankly, that's REALLY not very dramatic and therefore would have been a poor device), but Santa Anna did not tell Davy Crockett his evil scheme for taking over Texas and then the world before killing him. That wouldn't have made any sense at the Alamo, it's one of the things people make fun of James Bond movies for doing, and it REALLY doesn't make sense in a Star Wars book.

Master of Ossus wrote:I notice that Kazuaki is defending Crix's death because it was "realistic," however this rebuttal is off the mark for two reasons:

1. This is Star Wars and not real life.

In most cases true, but a change of pace is hardly unwelcome if you ask me.

2. Even if you DID want to make Star Wars more realistic, killing Madine in the way he died did NOTHING to further that goal. Crix's death was almost laughable in how poorly it was set up. He get's brought before fat slob, who reveals his evil plan to take over the world (ala James Bond villains), and finally gets around to killing him. That's not realistic: it doesn't make any sense. If KJA had wanted to make it realistic, he should have killed Crix in the corridor, and he should have just been shot. Alternatively, he could have captured him and then later killed him (though, frankly, that's REALLY not very dramatic and therefore would have been a poor device), but Santa Anna did not tell Davy Crockett his evil scheme for taking over Texas and then the world before killing him. That wouldn't have made any sense at the Alamo, it's one of the things people make fun of James Bond movies for doing, and it REALLY doesn't make sense in a Star Wars book.

Jeez, I didn't know it was THAT badly handled.