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Illuminatus Primus wrote:Oops, that's three Grand Admirals--Endor.

Why don´t you say four, since GA Declann died aboard the second DeathStar?

Ackbar won Endor, because the empire (mainly the emperor) screwed up and Lando convinced him to fight it out.

He conquered Coruscant, because Ysanne Isard wanted the rebels to do exactly that.

If not for Rukh and Talon Karrde´s smuggler-alliance he would have lost at Bilbringi.

He (and the entire NR) got his ass handed to him during the DE-time (despire the numerical advantage).

I somehow doubt that he could have had a major impact on the strategy against the Yuuzhan Vong with Fey´lya and consorts still in charge during the NJO.

FTeik wrote:He (and the entire NR) got his ass handed to him during the DE-time (despire the numerical advantage).

I've seen little proof the NR's main fleets were numerically superior to the Empire--they were desperate for ships themselves during Thrawn's campiagn.

Not to mention they were inferior to the larger-scale strategic fleets pouring out of the Deep Core.

Which has what to do with strategic competence?

FTeik wrote:I somehow doubt that he could have had a major impact on the strategy against the Yuuzhan Vong with Fey´lya and consorts still in charge during the NJO.

Which has what to do with his demonstrated strategic competence?

He is the only naval officer who outfought and defeated an Imperial Grand Admiral flat-out, and lived to tell about it.

He also outfought Piett, who had numerical and firepower advantage, and was considered on-par with the Grand Admirals.

Going by who has the best record of keeping his people alive, I have to say Ackbar. Solo seems to have trouble keeping track of a large force, Iblis (fall of Curascant among others), Antilles (Blackmoon 3 times among many, many others), Reikan (Hoth), and Dodonna (Yavin) get stuck with suicide missions way too often, Madine is a Spec ops commander (and dead to boot), Sovv couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag, and Kre'fey seems to be somewhat insane, at least after the Bothan declared genocide on the Vong.

Ackbar just goes in and gets the job done. He always plans extensively to try to avoid a bad outcome for his forces. And he's bright enough to command his fleet from the strongest warship he has with him, unlike some of the others on the list.

What the fuck was that shit of commanding a fleet from the Ralroost? What a shitwit.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

FTeik wrote:He (and the entire NR) got his ass handed to him during the DE-time (despire the numerical advantage).

I've seen little proof the NR's main fleets were numerically superior to the Empire--they were desperate for ships themselves during Thrawn's campiagn.

Not to mention they were inferior to the larger-scale strategic fleets pouring out of the Deep Core.

IIRC, the numerical superiority of the NR was mentioned in context with the DarkEmpire-series. When i fínd the quote you´ll be the first i´m going to tell.

Which has what to do with strategic competence?

Lets see:
You base you´re estimate on Ackbar on the fact, that he defeated
an imperial Grandadmiral, which were supposed to be the best of the best. But at the time of DE with exception of Grant everyone of them is dead.

So who was leading the imperial assault that forced the NR out of the core and drove them back to the outer rim? Nothing indicates, that Ackbar or any of the other officers were able to stop the imperial advances. Not once.

FTeik wrote:I somehow doubt that he could have had a major impact on the strategy against the Yuuzhan Vong with Fey´lya and consorts still in charge during the NJO.

Which has what to do with his demonstrated strategic competence?

As already pointed out his former achivements are somewhat questionable (there goes the demonstrated) and the as far as i remember Sovv was also strategecilly competent, but was hindered by the senate especially during the fight for Coruscant. And Ebaq 9 wouldn´t have been such a big victory, if the Yuuzhan Vong hadn´t already overstretched their forces. And it shouldn´t have taken a genius to use the by the time of DW known charakteristics of the YV against them.

He is the only naval officer who outfought and defeated an Imperial Grand Admiral flat-out, and lived to tell about it.

Since the article in Insider about the GA´s those men have lost a lot of their awe-inspiring reputation, if you ask me (unfortunately).

Accoding to that article Syn (who had turned into a religious whako at that point of time) was defeated because the NR brought overwhelming forces to the battle for Kashyyyk.

He also outfought Piett, who had numerical and firepower advantage, and was considered on-par with the Grand Admirals.

Who failed to use them properly since he was following the orders of the emperor.

I just finished reading Destinys Way, so its Ackbar all the way.

Lando. I switched to Colt 45 soon after seeing RoTJ for the first time.

Rev Prez

General Solo.

FTeik wrote:IIRC, the numerical superiority of the NR was mentioned in context with the DarkEmpire-series. When i fínd the quote you´ll be the first i´m going to tell.

I could buy this, actually. The NR by the time of HTTE is supposed to have 75% of the galaxy, and much of it seems to be the better half. If you count in every sector fleet, outnumbering the Empire's central naval reserve forces is not difficult.

However, 'numerical superiority' is not the same as firepower superiority. The sector fleets are Destroyer or below, while CNR seems to be more Destroyer and ABOVE.

Even with firepower equality, it is not difficult for the Empire. They just have to play the game the NR probably has been playing with them in its expansion period. Quietly move forces, achieve local superiority, and just let the firepower and N-square rule the battlefield.

Thrawn is uber because he could actually bring something NEW to Naval combat (his 'use-the-Interdictors-to-place-outflanking forces-precisely' tactic.) Otherwise, good and bad are decided on the proper use of the conventional, which could not create total miracles (unless the enemy's morale collapses like at Endor.)

As for Piett, he's not only politically restrained to the extent his capships couldn't even fire effectively from the start, but if Piett's actions in canon represent his whole, and HE is equal to a Grand Admiral, Grand Admirals are nothing to fear. Piett's actions in the film were at best marginally competent.

i personal dont like the allience but ackbar most likely

Lord Jax wrote:i personal dont like the allience but ackbar most likely

Live with it. The Alliance won.

Bel Iblis is sort of a living legend, isn't he? What did he do, specifically to earn him that status over Ackbar, who won Endor, or Antilles who won Yavin, or Solo who smashed Zsinj?

He smashed the Ubiqtorate base at Tangrene with 5 Katana Dreadnaughts.

Darth Yoshi wrote:He smashed the Ubiqtorate base at Tangrene with 5 Katana Dreadnaughts.

What? Where? The Tangrene Ubiqtorate base was the site of the NR's diversion for the run on the Bilbringi shipyards.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Darth Yoshi wrote:He smashed the Ubiqtorate base at Tangrene with 5 Katana Dreadnaughts.

What? Where? The Tangrene Ubiqtorate base was the site of the NR's diversion for the run on the Bilbringi shipyards.

And as Aves told Wedge when they were negotiating some information "The site of Bel Iblis's repeat performance". Garm smashed that base several years earlier and snuck through a line of SDs to do it.

Quite a few of the NJO books go on about this, comparing the various commanders. I'd have to look through them to find the quotes, but as I recall:

Bel Iblis's is considered the NR/GFFA's master tactiction. On the tactical level in a battle he matched wits with Thrawn quite a few times. And although he got betten, it was more a factor of Thrawn bringing in massive resources then Thrawn outsmarting him.

Wedge is considered near as good, at least in the NJO order, but he's realy just a frigen briliant snubfighter jocky at heart. Wedge also has learned to play politics, even though he doesn't like it. Bel Iblis kinda always had a problem with that, hence his leaving the Allience back when it was starting up. And some of his actions in the Hand of Thrawn books where he threw out the diplomatic soloution and locked the Turbolasers.

Ackbar is a briliant strategic commander. He can and does inspire his men to the point they would walk to hell and back for him. He was the one who came up with the plan to build up the NR fleet to the point that they could break the momentum of the Vong after Courscant and smash a large part of their fleet. He worked out the probable losses and OOB the Vong had left at that time, estimate which, worked out on his own, fitted dead right with what NRI had worked up.

Sovv is described as a gifted administrator, a hard worker who would have been perfect for keeping the NR military going strong in peace and keeping the logistics side going good. He had the bad luck to be Commander when the Vong invaded and Fey'lea and the senate micromanaged the whole war from Courscant. His frigen defence of Courscant was conducted in a session of the senate with them overrulling half the thing he tried to do or ordering him to do stupid things.

Traest Kre'fey is a soldiers soldier. Not a briliart tactican or strategic genus, but a solid experenced soldier who knows how to use all the tools available to him. He does not get involved in politics, except to get them to leave him alone. He actualy threatend Fey'lea that he would abandon the NR to its fate along with the entire NRDF unless he backed up from trying to micromanage.

And I would note that when Wedge was asked what he thinks Thrawn would have made of the Vong, Wedge replied 'Ground Vong probably'.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
I could buy this, actually. The NR by the time of HTTE is supposed to have 75% of the galaxy, and much of it seems to be the better half. If you count in every sector fleet, outnumbering the Empire's central naval reserve forces is not difficult.

Thrawn Empire counted 25% of the former Empire territory, it does not follow that the NR occupied the remainding 75%. Remember, they were still beseeching others to join. It was only until Darksaber that the 75% quote became reality.

PainRack wrote:

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
I could buy this, actually. The NR by the time of HTTE is supposed to have 75% of the galaxy, and much of it seems to be the better half. If you count in every sector fleet, outnumbering the Empire's central naval reserve forces is not difficult.

Thrawn Empire counted 25% of the former Empire territory, it does not follow that the NR occupied the remainding 75%. Remember, they were still beseeching others to join. It was only until Darksaber that the 75% quote became reality.

Thrawn's Empire occupied 25% of the galaxy-without-the-Deep-Core.

And what is this Darksabre quote? That is certainly inconsistent with the later Black Fleet Crisis and the shrunken number of members.