That Stupid Connie at W359!

[Vympel]

Oh I see, sounds reasonable

(shameless post increaser)

[Ted]

Some one delete that previous post!

[Evil Jerk]

Hell, it would seem the Feds grabed the fastest ships they could find. There was 1 three engined ship and 3 four engined ships that made it to Wolf 359. Starfleet didn't have vast amounts of time to prepare. With regions of the Federation being so remote that it takes hours for communications, and those are on certain Borders, I have no doubt they got what they could get really fast.

Explain the ship with 1 nacelle then.

[Alyeska]

Hell, it would seem the Feds grabed the fastest ships they could find. There was 1 three engined ship and 3 four engined ships that made it to Wolf 359. Starfleet didn't have vast amounts of time to prepare. With regions of the Federation being so remote that it takes hours for communications, and those are on certain Borders, I have no doubt they got what they could get really fast.

Explain the ship with 1 nacelle then.

Freedom class. It uses GCS parts and either relied on new engines to get it there somewhat fast, or was already close by. I said that a fair portion of the ships were fast ones, not that all of them were fast.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Man if I had been in charge when the Borg came knocking I'd have called back EVERYTHING, general get your asses to earth right now order. The Romulans etc may cause problems but they're not about to reduce your capital to rubble and steal your population.

[Vympel]

Some one delete that previous post!

Leave my posts alone.

I registed July and quite frankly the lowness of my count is obscene.

[Tsyroc]

Hell, it would seem the Feds grabed the fastest ships they could find. There was 1 three engined ship and 3 four engined ships that made it to Wolf 359. Starfleet didn't have vast amounts of time to prepare. With regions of the Federation being so remote that it takes hours for communications, and those are on certain Borders, I have no doubt they got what they could get really fast.

Explain the ship with 1 nacelle then.

I thought that design was so they could go in a circle really really fast.

[Alyeska]

Hell, it would seem the Feds grabed the fastest ships they could find. There was 1 three engined ship and 3 four engined ships that made it to Wolf 359. Starfleet didn't have vast amounts of time to prepare. With regions of the Federation being so remote that it takes hours for communications, and those are on certain Borders, I have no doubt they got what they could get really fast.

Explain the ship with 1 nacelle then.

I thought that design was so they could go in a circle really really fast.

We already know that the warp engines on ST ships are not vertically ballanced, so that is not the issue. The Freedom class has a single warp engine, but it is ballanced horizontally.

[Coyote]

The Connie may have been piloted by a skeleton crew ready to transport out if they needed it for a kamikaze platform-- remember Kirk's performance with a bashed-up Constitution class in TOS episode, "The Doomsday Machine". Since there was a recorded instance of a successful use fo a starship as a kamikaze drone, maybe it would work again if things got desperate. The Cube probably tore them up before they had a chance.

And I think the Wold 359 battle represented the best fleet SF could assemble at a moments notice. Don't worry about the Roms and the Cardies; if StarFleet can demonstrate to the AQ that they are able to take down a Borg cube, then the implications would have been enough to keep the neighbors in their own backyards.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Perhaps they spent too much time listening to the Uber-Connie of Doom crowd and thought that it was many times more powerful than any of their other ships..

Sad and disturbing idea; maybe it was.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Never said that SF was smart during BOBW. Hell, Riker saved them of all people.

I don't think it's a matter of them being smart or stupid; it's a matter of them obviously having a very small number of ships to call upon. They said they were dredging up every ship they could find; this merely proves how desperate they were for ships.

Yes, they were dredging up every ship they could SPARE. They still had other things they had to contend with. Pull to many ships from to many places and you might defeat the Borg, but the Breen, Tholians, Cardassians, or Romulans could come a knocking and cause a little trouble. Only reason the Klingons were requested was because of their allied status. Only reason the Romulans were even considered was because of the past history the Borg had with the Romulans.

The Romulans had no history with the Borg directly at that point -- they'd lost a few colonies or outposts or some damn thing, but IIRC they didn't know who was responsible. In fact, if I remember the Season I ep where they first showed up in TNG, they thought the Feds were responsible for the losses. (That's pretty funny, considering that Starfleet ships probably couldn't pull that damage.)

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

BTW, can anybody post a decent pic of this Connie? I'd like to see that.

[Alyeska]

I don't think it's a matter of them being smart or stupid; it's a matter of them obviously having a very small number of ships to call upon. They said they were dredging up every ship they could find; this merely proves how desperate they were for ships.

Yes, they were dredging up every ship they could SPARE. They still had other things they had to contend with. Pull to many ships from to many places and you might defeat the Borg, but the Breen, Tholians, Cardassians, or Romulans could come a knocking and cause a little trouble. Only reason the Klingons were requested was because of their allied status. Only reason the Romulans were even considered was because of the past history the Borg had with the Romulans.

The Romulans had no history with the Borg directly at that point -- they'd lost a few colonies or outposts or some damn thing, but IIRC they didn't know who was responsible. In fact, if I remember the Season I ep where they first showed up in TNG, they thought the Feds were responsible for the losses. (That's pretty funny, considering that Starfleet ships probably couldn't pull that damage.)

Federation ships are relatively equal to Romulan ships. Just look at the damage from TDIC. Trek can do fair damage with planetary bombardment.

The Romulans might not have known intially, but we already know the Romulans had spies in the Federation, and with the sudden interest the Federation was showing towards a preemptive strike I have little doubt the Romulans put 2+2 together.

[Alyeska]

BTW, can anybody post a decent pic of this Connie? I'd like to see that.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... 59-5-2.jpg






Link large images please-GAT

[Evil Jerk]

Yes, they were dredging up every ship they could SPARE. They still had other things they had to contend with. Pull to many ships from to many places and you might defeat the Borg, but the Breen, Tholians, Cardassians, or Romulans could come a knocking and cause a little trouble. Only reason the Klingons were requested was because of their allied status. Only reason the Romulans were even considered was because of the past history the Borg had with the Romulans.

The Romulans had no history with the Borg directly at that point -- they'd lost a few colonies or outposts or some damn thing, but IIRC they didn't know who was responsible. In fact, if I remember the Season I ep where they first showed up in TNG, they thought the Feds were responsible for the losses. (That's pretty funny, considering that Starfleet ships probably couldn't pull that damage.)

Federation ships are relatively equal to Romulan ships. Just look at the damage from TDIC. Trek can do fair damage with planetary bombardment.

The Romulans might not have known intially, but we already know the Romulans had spies in the Federation, and with the sudden interest the Federation was showing towards a preemptive strike I have little doubt the Romulans put 2+2 together.

Actually, the Romulans said that when they calculated the level of damage, they knew it couldn't be the Federation.
It wasn't just bravado, they had no idea who did it.

[Alyeska]

The Romulans had no history with the Borg directly at that point -- they'd lost a few colonies or outposts or some damn thing, but IIRC they didn't know who was responsible. In fact, if I remember the Season I ep where they first showed up in TNG, they thought the Feds were responsible for the losses. (That's pretty funny, considering that Starfleet ships probably couldn't pull that damage.)

Federation ships are relatively equal to Romulan ships. Just look at the damage from TDIC. Trek can do fair damage with planetary bombardment.

The Romulans might not have known intially, but we already know the Romulans had spies in the Federation, and with the sudden interest the Federation was showing towards a preemptive strike I have little doubt the Romulans put 2+2 together.

Actually, the Romulans said that when they calculated the level of damage, they knew it couldn't be the Federation.
It wasn't just bravado, they had no idea who did it.

I think it was the style of damage (as in scooping entire cities off of the planet) that indicated it wasn't the Federation.

[jegs2]

SB seems to be packed with the Connie crowd that deems their version of ST as invincible. I found myself walking away from an argument where Connies claimed that the TOS Federation could defeat an SSD set loose in their universe. All of my arguments were ignored; there was no turning them to reason.

[Crazy_Vasey]

I saw that. How the fuck do they calculate that the rommies torp was 300GT? I vaguely remember that ep and I can't think of a damn thing you could calculate firepower from.

[SirNitram]

Wait until they bring out claims of defeating the Death Star in one shot, or of being able to fire five million shots a second.


As for the Nacelle/Speed thing..

Given that the Defiant can outrun everything else, the size and number of nacelles isn't the determiner of speed. But I think it does determine how long you can maintain it. Four Nacelles would either spread the load out, or have two maintaining the field while the other two 'rest'.

And the one Nacelle thing? Possibly a hotrod or rebuilt Galaxy, designed for speed 'bursts'. Probably dispatched from Earth.

[NecronLord]

Now, um, Lord Wong, as perhaps one of the most rational beings in the world...that would seem like a rational explanation, but its not...

If I'm not mistaken, TOS era phasers cannot penetrate TNG era sheilding, at least Connie size vs. Galaxy size, let alone Connie vs Cube. I think Starfleet would know this, and other people (Ossus etc) have said that it would be unlikely for Starfleet to send it towards the Cube regardless. It's like sending a Volkswagen against a Panzer division, it's just plain suicidal and it just gets people killed.

Unless the superiority of the new ships is not as great as the propagandists would have you believe. Mind you, an old ship (which presumably has not been properly maintained over the last 80 years) may not be all that suitable for battle, but it would make sense in light of the Federation's feeble fleet strength. I suspect that the majority of Starfleet's ships are science vessels, freighters, couriers, etc. at this time, and that they started converting them to half-assed warships for the Dominion War, hence their pathetic battle performance (look at how many JH ships the Defiant could take out by itself, and then look at how whole fleets of 100 ships or more were decimated by JH ships).

It is the standard routine of communism. "Things are getting better all the time, you had it really bad with the last govt." Certainly design and speed have become much worse. Size of constructions in tos was as good as if not better than tng (Starbase 74). Objectivly speaking federation tech has regressed from the TOS era onwards (take voyager, Kirks ship would have them back in a few days max, please dont cite the G Kennedy type warp highway crap, thats whay the federation council {of polit beurau} wants you to believe). As a side note you have pics of that ship, intact in "Star Trek phase II; The lost series" It was designed by Ralph McQuarrie {hence the KDY look} and has a large shuttlebay at the back. The reason for it being in BoBW is that the production team had two few ships and got out the Connie II Concept models to bulk up the numbers onscreen. It also has armoured Nacelles! Common sense! As side note I am an "Uber-connie of doom" guy, but taking on a SSD? Pleashe...

[jegs2]

Wait until they bring out claims of defeating the Death Star in one shot, or of being able to fire five million shots a second.

Think they've already claimed that. The crowd I was talking to also seriously suggested the Connie-era ST Feds could invade and conquer the GE. It was about then that I gave up.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Wait until they bring out claims of defeating the Death Star in one shot, or of being able to fire five million shots a second.

Think they've already claimed that. The crowd I was talking to also seriously suggested the Connie-era ST Feds could invade and conquer the GE. It was about then that I gave up.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Even if the connies were as powerful as those guys say they are they still wouldn't have the numbers to take on the Imperial starfleet. Come on there's what 12 connies? Yeah I can see 25K ISDs having loads of trouble chewing those up...

[Kamakazie Sith]

The Romulans had no history with the Borg directly at that point -- they'd lost a few colonies or outposts or some damn thing, but IIRC they didn't know who was responsible. In fact, if I remember the Season I ep where they first showed up in TNG, they thought the Feds were responsible for the losses. (That's pretty funny, considering that Starfleet ships probably couldn't pull that damage.)

The Romulans had lost a few colonies and outposts, and the Romulan commander said when they surveyed the damage they knew the Federation wasn't responsible.

And everyone needs to remember that it wasn't damage from firepower that had everyone amazed, it was the fact that the cities were torn from the surface of the planet.

IIRC in TNG BOBW, you will see that there is a huge crater left from where the colony was but yet no damage to the surrounding landscape. Any weapon that could leave a crater that size would damage the surrounding landscape.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Actually, I think the question of TOS-to-TNG ship degredation was handled "in-universe" at one point. Q accused Picard (and indirectly the Federation) of becoming complacent. And that, I think, is exactly it. Starfleet went from being the tough frontier sherrif like Pat Garrett to being a bunch of lazy self-satisfied fat old men. The Federation is going the way of the Roman Empire. No big deal.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Actually, I think the question of TOS-to-TNG ship degredation was handled "in-universe" at one point. Q accused Picard (and indirectly the Federation) of becoming complacent. And that, I think, is exactly it. Starfleet went from being the tough frontier sherrif like Pat Garrett to being a bunch of lazy self-satisfied fat old men. The Federation is going the way of the Roman Empire. No big deal.

That was until the Dominion showed up, now starfleet seems to be heading back the way they came.