POLL: Bush vs. Nixon

[Ma Deuce]

Bumbling idiots can often be more dangerous intelligent, malicious plotters.

Oops, that should be:

Bumbling idiots can often be more dangerous than intelligent, malicious plotters.

[Axis Kast]

That was the justification at the time. But the fact and reality is that
many innocent civilians died
the bombing was an illegal attack upon a sovereign nation
and in any case traffic along the Ho Chi Minh trail was not significantly disrupted.

So in summary, Nixon killed thousands of innocent people in the illegal pursuit of a dubious objective which he failed to achieve. Hooray.

Now that's not fair. You're playing armchair general. Nixon couldn't have known the bombings would be so ineffective when he first launched them.

It wasn't merely the justification, it was the reality of the situation. Many innocent people did die, but not only in Cambodia.

As for soverignty, you already know what I think of that. It's a mere formality that nations agree to give eachother. Then again, the fact that Cambodia was unable to sort out its own mess really brings that sovereignty into question. VietCong moving unimpeded through their territory were, after all, killing Americans and our allies.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Now that's not fair. You're playing armchair general. Nixon couldn't have known the bombings would be so ineffective when he first launched them.

Unfair? I think it's fairly plain to see how effective it might be, if you look at the proposed target: A system of couriers moving along jungle paths--and they had no way of locating these convoys in even the vaguest sense. How effective can one expect high-altitude saturation bombing to be against such a target? Even if you're a supreme optimist the answer is "not very effective at all."

It wasn't merely the justification, it was the reality of the situation. Many innocent people did die, but not only in Cambodia.

Um... yeah?

As for soverignty, you already know what I think of that.

No, I don't really pay much attention to you... but let's hear it.

It's a mere formality that nations agree to give eachother.

A mere formality which occasionally has horrific repercussions when it is ignored, as it did in this very case. The territory of a country is in fact rather important, and wantonly invading neutral nations is not good policy in any way.

Then again, the fact that Cambodia was unable to sort out its own mess really brings that sovereignty into question. VietCong moving unimpeded through their territory were, after all, killing Americans and our allies.

Did this give us the right to invade Cambodia? Congress didn't think so...

[Patrick Degan]

Just bear in mind Pablo that Comical Axi subscribes to the Might Makes Right Theory of International Law. Just like Hitler.

[Darth Wong]

Axi's central argument is that American actions can never be wrong because there is no such thing as "wrong" in international politics. This is a bit like saying that the mathematical equation 2+2=5 is correct because you do not recognize math.

[Alan Bolte]

Whoa, hold on there sir. That anology strikes me as a little off. I'd say that it's more like not dressing warmly in winter because being cold is not a direct cause of illness. It's not entirely untrue, but it misses the point, and the indirect ramifications.

[Uraniun235]

It seems that people at least acknowledge that Nixon did do some good things during his presidency.

Let's compare positives: What good has Bush done for the nation? And what good did Nixon do for the nation?

Frankly, I don't think Bush has accomplished much at all. Fuck, at least Nixon went to China.

[MKSheppard]

A less aggressive and egoistic president probably would have written off South Vietnam in 1972 instead of trying to keep the corpse alive.

Actually he did bring North Vietnam to tbe peace table, and lets not forget
that South Vietnam didn't fall to a guerilla campaign, but to a massive
armored thrust that had more tanks in it than the german invasion of
France.

[haas mark]

Bush seems to be trying to move toward a theocracy. That's the top thing off of my head right now. Overall, I think Bush is worse than Nixon. But not by much.

[haas mark]

Did this give us the right to invade Cambodia? Congress didn't think so...

If I may be so bold, what, exactly, gives us the right to invade anybody when we don't have distinct proof that something's going on against us?

[MKSheppard]

Did this give us the right to invade Cambodia? Congress didn't think so...

Ahem...

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/ ... ea1970.htm

1970

CAMBODIA By April 20, North Vietnamese and Viet Cong troops had seized large areas of the country and the Cambodian Government called for assistance. In response, USAF and VNAF aircraft bombed enemy targets in Cambodia on April 24 and five days later, U.S. and South Vietnamese troops crossed the border and struck the enemy’s sanctuaries. They withdrew into South Vietnam by the end of June. The enemy continued his offensive operations within Cambodia, and by year’s end, had occupied about one-half of the country.

1971

CAMBODIA Communist activity continued within Cambodia and eventually the road from the capital, Phnom Penh, to its seaport, Kompong Som was cut. Supplies then had to be flown in or carried on ships up the Mekong River from South Vietnam. USAF and U.S. Army aircraft provided aerial escort to river convoys and aerial support to ground operations of the Cambodian Army which nevertheless suffered repeated setbacks.

1972

CAMBODIA During the year, Cambodian forces were able to win localized victories but could not drive out the Communists. On the other hand, the Communists were unable to capture their primary target, the capital, Phnom Penh. During these ground operations, U.S. airpower, including B-52s, continued to hammer the enemy, but there was a limit to what air power could accomplish when the enemy showed little regard for the lives of its own troops.

1973

CAMBODIA There was no peace in Cambodia in early 1973. Local Communist insurgents of the Khmer Rouge kept up their attacks on Phnom Penh, so the Cambodian Government urgently called upon the U.S. for help and the Air Force was ordered to carry out a massive bombing campaign against the insurgents on the outskirts of the capital. However, Congressional pressure in Washington grew against these bombings and eventually all funds for military operations in South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia were cut off. On August 15, 1973, USAF Capt. Lonnie O. Ratley, flying an A-7D Corsair, completed the last U.S. combat mission of the SEA conflict.

Fuunny, the Cambodian gov't ASKED us to help.......

[MKSheppard]

and I went back after that last post, looking backwards through that site, and it wasn't a total conspiracy by Nixon.....

1969:

CAMBODIA For years, the enemy had lived in Cambodia, crossing the border for attacks into South Vietnam and then fleeing back across the border to safety. And for years, U.S. and South Vietnamese military experts (including ex- President Eisenhower) had called upon President Johnson to permit attacks on the enemy in these sanctuaries. When the enemy launched another nationwide offensive on February 23, 1969, President Nixon decided North Vietnam had no intention accepting a peace, and he ordered a secret two- month bombing offensive by B-52s on the Cambodian sanctuaries.