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Crazy_Vasey wrote: I have no idea, those papers are expensive and I don't read them. Anyway all that most people see of the EU here are senseless regulations and viciously scathing newspaper articles. Apart from the Blair friendly newspapers of course, they support it but who takes the Daily Star seriously?

Damn. They should be cheaper, then. This summer I stayed three weeks in England in vacation and usually ended up buying one of the three (I like to vary). They're damned good newspapers. I bought a tabloid once (don't remember which one) and there is really a lot of difference.

People should buy them. You should try to read at work, for example, or at coffees.

I say again, tabloids are a health problem in the U.K.
They propagate all kind of fantastic bullshit and manipulate a credule opinion.

Colonel Olrik wrote:

Crazy_Vasey wrote: I have no idea, those papers are expensive and I don't read them. Anyway all that most people see of the EU here are senseless regulations and viciously scathing newspaper articles. Apart from the Blair friendly newspapers of course, they support it but who takes the Daily Star seriously?

Damn. They should be cheaper, then. This summer I stayed three weeks in England in vacation and usually ended up buying one of the three (I like to vary). They're damned good newspapers. I bought a tabloid once (don't remember which one) and there is really a lot of difference.

People should buy them. You should try to read at work, for example, or at coffees.

I say again, tabloids are a health problem in the U.K.
They propagate all kind of fantastic bullshit and manipulate a credule opinion.

Right now I read the 'Metro' newspaper, shite but it's free at train stations

The tabloids control public opinion over here anyway it's a sad but true fact. Why do you think the first thing Blair did was get them onside? They've killed the Tory party (no big loss really) and the lib dems get zero coverage, god only knows what they're up to.

Colonel Olrik wrote:

Muad'Dib wrote:Ok for a start look at Germany, Hitler tries to gain power by force, he fails, he goes back and uses politics to get his way. He then tried to conquer Europe he fails, his sucessors in the german parliment then decide to start the EU and take by politics what they failed by force.

Sure, nowadays Germany is exactly equal to the one of the third reich. Everyone can see that. I'm waiting for Salm to confirm this. And, of course, the E.U is ruled by german despots instead by majority (or consensus) vote of all countries.

Heil Hitler!

salm wrote: Heil Hitler!

Heh, you should back me up on this. I wuz being ironical..0_o

Colonel Olrik wrote:

salm wrote: Heil Hitler!

Heh, you should back me up on this. I wuz being ironical..0_o

i was being sarcastic.

i pretty much agree with you and would have backed you up, but it seems you´ve already done all the work.

i found a german speaking swiss board with a bunch of christian fundies on it. i spent a whole bunch of time there.

EU membership is one of the best things that has happened to my country and I'm happy to live in Europe that is relatively peaceful and wealthy place to live. Germany's economical problems were certainly not caused by EMU. Krauts have huge problems in the regions of the former DDR and also the worldwide depression has hit their industry hard.

I don't personally give a damn about Union-wide regulations that state that condoms must have these features and bananas must be like this. Why do people/media make such a big number of it?

Sure, militarically Europe is a joke. I know that UK, France and to a lesser extent Italy and Germany have reasonably powerful armed forces, but compared to USA, EU has no reasonable capability for power projection or anything. Does it really need that? Dunno. What I'd like to see, is a common defence pact or unified military force with a reasonable amount of autonomy inside membership states.

Olrik, you're not the only "idealist" here. I too really hope that Europe can become even more unified. I think that "Helsinki, Finland, United States of Europe" would look good on my passport.


"ok u live in Portugal u have a small country, u won't mind being absorbed, u haven't much to lose"

Muad'Dib, are you somehow implying that smaller countries are less important than bigger ones? If so, think about it again.

The European Union is primarily an economic union, there for protecting the economies within and increasing the wealth of member nations. The military takes a strict second place in this scheme.

victorhadin wrote:The European Union is primarily an economic union, there for protecting the economies within and increasing the wealth of member nations. The military takes a strict second place in this scheme.

that´s true, the military isnt strong yet. but i hope it will grow, just in case the us is taken over by evil fundies.

salm wrote: i was being sarcastic.

i pretty much agree with you and would have backed you up, but it seems you´ve already done all the work.

I know that

Just returning the favour


PS: How nice it is being able to discuss these issues without Azeron hijacking the thread with hatemongering E.U bashing

The EU was/is planning a European Rapid Deployment Defence Force, which the americans were/are really pissed about. They claimed it would ruin NATO, etc...

Ted wrote:The EU was/is planning a European Rapid Deployment Defence Force, which the americans were/are really pissed about. They claimed it would ruin NATO, etc...

I've never understood why there still is a NATO. The Warsaw Pact is gone which is what NATO was supposed to counter, so why is there still a NATO?

Tsyroc wrote: I've never understood why there still is a NATO. The Warsaw Pact is gone which is what NATO was supposed to counter, so why is there still a NATO?

Bureaurcacies never die....they just change missions....

[Azeron mode]

besides NATO is an american imperialist tool for domination
of europe, WMAHHAHAHAHHA

[/Azeron mode]

The European Union shall be no match for Imperium Americana!

victorhadin wrote:http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,3 ... 38,00.html

Consult

Saturday's referendum saw 63% of voters support ratifying the treaty, with 37% against.

The parliaments of all the other member states had approved the treaty - only Ireland was constitutionally bound to consult the electorate.

Ten states are preparing to join the EU in 2004.

They are Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Cyprus, Lithuania, Slovenia, Estonia, Latvia, Slovakia and Malta.

Solidarity

A further two - Romania and Bulgaria - are behind with their free market reforms but are expected to become members before the end of the decade.

The prime minister of Poland, Leszek Miller, raised a glass of Guinness and broke into song with "I love you like Ireland", adapting a popular Polish ballad.

Hungarian Foreign Minister Laszlo Kovacs praised the Irish vote as one of "responsibility and solidarity".

"They have also given an opportunity, which Ireland enjoyed decades ago when it joined the (EU), to the countries now wishing to join," he said.

Well, I hope you resolve the Cyprus issue first. The Turks are not going to be pleased if you let the Greek Cypriots in as long as they're claiming that Turkish Cyprus is part of their Republic. To be precise, they'll annex Turkish Cyprus to protect the population; and I rather suspect, Victor, you know what the repercussions of that would be.

How exactly do you think you can solve it? The crowd in Brussels has not been kind to the Turks of late...

Not a clue. Like most people, I have never really considered this.

Personaly my politics are a wee bit left of center, but in the modern EU unless ur extreem Left Wing ur a nazi facist and thos new papers mentioned like the Guardian, The Times ect will hound you out of public office. the fact of the matter is the EU superstate will all end in tears, and what polls have u been reading, the ones i have seen say that British public opinion of the Euro is falling more and more, only the extreem left idiots continue to support it.

The United Kingoom of Great Britain and NORTHERN IRELAND will never join the USE, relations between America and us are too strong. WHo backed Bush in attacking Afghanistan while the girlie left eurocrats sat on their hands and flew PLO flags.

extreemism of any kind is wrong, but the extreem left facists of europe are startign to make ole Adolf look amiable

Muad'Dib wrote:So basically what we are starting is a United States of Europe and each country loses it's individuality, no thank u, it should also be pointed out there was less than a 50% turnout

Ummm, less individuality? What about the cultural minorities in France that are only gaining a voice and attempting to become more independant through the EU.

Marina's back!
I dont know wether to be happy or sad.
Specially with Rise of the Dreadnought.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Well, I hope you resolve the Cyprus issue first. The Turks are not going to be pleased if you let the Greek Cypriots in as long as they're claiming that Turkish Cyprus is part of their Republic. To be precise, they'll annex Turkish Cyprus to protect the population; and I rather suspect, Victor, you know what the repercussions of that would be.

How exactly do you think you can solve it? The crowd in Brussels has not been kind to the Turks of late...

It is a problem, yes, but not as serious as it may seem. There are currently a lot of conversations between the two sides of the island towards some kind of union. Turkey would not invade against the will of the turkish population.

The talks will be accelerated with this decision. Both sides have to gain with an union.

Turkey is a candidate to enter the Union. There are several more that have not been considered fit yet. It has strong economical ties with the E.U and there is a chance of its entry being reconsidered in the next months.

And what would the consequences of an anexation be? It's pretty much the situation now, but for the troops. It wouldn't necessarily mean war.

Muad'Dib wrote:Personaly my politics are a wee bit left of center, but in the modern EU unless ur extreem Left Wing ur a nazi facist and thos new papers mentioned like the Guardian, The Times ect will hound you out of public office.

Really? from your past opinions [advocating terrorism] you seem like a bit of a fascist to me.

the fact of the matter is the EU superstate will all end in tears

Buhuh. Just because you want it so doesn't mean it's a fact.

and what polls have u been reading, the ones i have seen say that British public opinion of the Euro is falling more and more, only the extreem left idiots continue to support it.

Yes, those and all the fucking bussinessmen of the country. Try reading the Guardian or the Times instead of the Sun. Trust me, there's a lot of difference.

The United Kingoom of Great Britain and NORTHERN IRELAND will never join the USE, relations between America and us are too strong. WHo backed Bush in attacking Afghanistan while the girlie left eurocrats sat on their hands and flew PLO flags.

All Europe did. Or do you think that the only way to fight terrorism is to send out big guns? Did you miss all the effort made by the intelligence services throughout the Union? Even in Portugal we had our share of potential terrorists arrested.

extreemism of any kind is wrong, but the extreem left facists of europe are startign to make ole Adolf look amiable

And you're deserving more and more the title of village idiot. Your constructive opinions of the E.U stand right by side with those of our friend Azeron.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

victorhadin wrote:http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,3 ... 38,00.html

Consult

Saturday's referendum saw 63% of voters support ratifying the treaty, with 37% against.

The parliaments of all the other member states had approved the treaty - only Ireland was constitutionally bound to consult the electorate.

Ten states are preparing to join the EU in 2004.

They are Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Cyprus, Lithuania, Slovenia, Estonia, Latvia, Slovakia and Malta.

Solidarity

A further two - Romania and Bulgaria - are behind with their free market reforms but are expected to become members before the end of the decade.

The prime minister of Poland, Leszek Miller, raised a glass of Guinness and broke into song with "I love you like Ireland", adapting a popular Polish ballad.

Hungarian Foreign Minister Laszlo Kovacs praised the Irish vote as one of "responsibility and solidarity".

"They have also given an opportunity, which Ireland enjoyed decades ago when it joined the (EU), to the countries now wishing to join," he said.

Well, I hope you resolve the Cyprus issue first. The Turks are not going to be pleased if you let the Greek Cypriots in as long as they're claiming that Turkish Cyprus is part of their Republic. To be precise, they'll annex Turkish Cyprus to protect the population; and I rather suspect, Victor, you know what the repercussions of that would be.

How exactly do you think you can solve it? The crowd in Brussels has not been kind to the Turks of late...

sure, they´re not going to be pleased. but what are they going to do about it? they want to enter the EU as well. and they´re getting closer to get their chance. they´ve abolished the death penalty (only in times of peace though) which has been a big step. but they´re still in thin ice. they´re not going to completely fuck their chances up by anexing tc.

Your economies will no longer be managed by your capitals, but by some
bureaucrats in Brussels as they play with the Euro.

I'm all for eliminating tariffs and establishing free trade, but the European
Union seems to be more and more of an attempt to trample national
sovereignity with an impersonal group of bureaucrats dictating from Brussels..

I know this isn't popular to say, but the EU is probably Germany's attempt
to get what they couldn't in two world wars: control over Europe.

MKSheppard wrote:Your economies will no longer be managed by your capitals, but by some
bureaucrats in Brussels as they play with the Euro.

I'm all for eliminating tariffs and establishing free trade, but the European
Union seems to be more and more of an attempt to trample national
sovereignity with an impersonal group of bureaucrats dictating from Brussels..

I know this isn't popular to say, but the EU is probably Germany's attempt
to get what they couldn't in two world wars: control over Europe.

Actually the Bruxelles often intervene to prevent the national governments from intervening too much in the economies.The eurocrats are far more pro laissez faire and pro free trade than the national politicians.
And the germans did not want the euro and the EU more than the others.If anything the opposite is true."The Germany takes over" scenario is nothing more than an fantasy dictated by ingnorance of the current situation.By the way,the current president of the european commission is an italian.

I know this isn't popular to say, but the EU is probably Germany's attempt
to get what they couldn't in two world wars: control over Europe.

according to your sig you like großdeutschland anyway, so what´s your problem, shep?

this argument has been smashed already anyways.

Your economies will no longer be managed by your capitals, but by some
bureaucrats in Brussels as they play with the Euro.

beurocrats in brussels or beurocrats in berlin... who cares?

salm wrote: beurocrats in brussels or beurocrats in berlin... who cares?

The difference is, you can vote out the shitheads in berlin...you cannot
vote out the shitheads in Brussels....