StarDestroyer.Net BBS

McC wrote:The CIA?

George Tenet. Can't think of the FBI Director's name at the moment, but I know I know it...

I think Vader was well-known amongst the upper echelons of the Imperial government and the military, but I doubt he was to the general populace. It just doesn't make sense that the Emperor would widely publicize having a Sith Lord in his employ.

As usual, I think the EU is wrong.

Keep in mind that Vader might not have been as well known at the time of ANH as he later would be. From what I gather in ANH (the movie and the novelization), the Empire was largely in the hands of technocrats like Tarkin, with the Death Star the crowning achievement of that elite. In fact, the novelization implies that the emperor himself had little control over the likes of Tarkin and Motti, and even Vader at one point appears to dismiss the emperor.

Once the DS was destroyed thanks to Tarkin's own arrogance, that might well have destroyed the technocrats politically (and outright killed much of their leadership) and left Vader and the Emperor in a position to reassert control.

I very much think that Lucas's vision of Palpatine when he wrote ANH was that of an invisible, largely ineffective puppet. He neither appears nor is mentioned by name in the movie and is only mentioned by name in the novel once, in the excerpt from The Chronicle of the Whills. Tarkin appears to make the decision to destroy Alderran without consulting either Vader or the Emperor, and it's clear Vader is subordinate to Tarkin. The Chronicle of the Whills describes Palpatine as being trapped by the corporations and powerful individuals who made his ascent to Emperor possible in the first place. ANH, taken outside the context later established by the other four films and the EU, portrays an Empire run by a technocratic oligarchy, whose members are exemplified by Grand Moff Tarkin, through a puppet emperor, not a Sith Lord whose powers approach godlike and whose goals are nothing less than immortality, the extermination or enslavement of the entire sapient population of the galaxy, and the creation of a Dark Side theocracy.

Inside the context, it's a bit trickier to rationalize. Master manipulator that Palpatine is, he may have found it politically advantageous to appear weak and allow the public to believe his subordinates were the evil ones--"if only Hitler knew", in other words. At any rate, it's possible Vader was relatively unknown until after the Death Star's destruction--his own survival of that disaster would make his a name worth noting, after all, let alone his apparent promotion afterwards (compare Jerjerrod's cowering to Tarkin's arrogance in his presence).

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Sometimes people choose to tell stories in an odd manner.

VERY odd. Imagine if you tell someone that Elvis Presley killed his father, and you're telling him like this:

"A young singer named Elvis, who was a pupil of mine until he...
(blah-blah-blah).... He betrayed and murdered your father."

Yes it's weird, but it would sure let the audience in on what's happening, wouldn't it?

Palpatine is actually mentioned at least twice in ANH: Once by Tarkin, then immediately afterwards by Tagge.

To Galvatron: I don't think they would advertise that Vader was a Dark Lord of the Sith, either, but that doesn't mean that they can't mention him at all to the Galactic population. They could have just made something up as to why Darth Vader is called "Lord."

Never by name, though.

Though now that I'm thinking about it, his name was never mentioned in the other OT movies, either. So that's not a valid point. Still, he was never SEEN in ANH.

Well, was there really a reason that he should have been?

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Well, was there really a reason that he should have been?

Not really. His absense in the film doesn't give me the impression I have of Lucas's original concept of the Empire so much as the novelization and certain other details in the film, such as Tarkin apparently acting on his own to destroy Alderaan (which should have been outside his territory as governor of the Outer Rim). Before anyone says it, I know that can be easily rationalized to fit with what later material tells us, but I'm just looking at ANH on its own, outside the context provided by later materials, to try to judge what Lucas was thinking.

In the ANH Radio Drama, Vader does, in fact, object to the destruction of Alderaan on the grounds that it was one of the foremost worlds in the Empire, and he also says that the Emperor should be consulted before such a decision was made.

Tarkin outrightly dismissed Vader, saying that the emperor had given him a free hand in routing out the Rebels, and that the decision was his. Vader shut himself up at that point.

Luke dosent know of Vader mainly because Lukes Uncle Owen hid alot from him. He wouldnt tell Luke who Ben was and he wouldnt let Ben give Luke his fathers lightsaber when he was old enough just to keep Luke from being curious about his heritage. And correct me if im wrong but wasnt it during the time of ANH the Empire only had a small outpost on Tattooine and no major Imperial prescence was on the planet only until the droids became an issue. I mean Ben wouldnt hide on a planet full of Imperial ears and eyes. To make it simply Tatooine is to remote and Uncle Owen hid alot from Luke

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
I always wonder why Luke's response is not like this one:

LUKE: Vader? You mean THAT Darth Vader? He is the one who killed my father?

Okay, one would say that Luke is just a farmboy from some backwater planet, but I guess even if a teenage redneck from some backwater village is being told that Al Gore killed his father, his reaction would not be much different.

REDNECK KID: Al Gore? You mean THAT Al Gore? He is the one who killed my father?

So how can we rationalize Luke's ignorance??

Except Luke would be a farmboy in some isolated town in China.

Try this situation

you are in Darwin, Australia, where the only real american influence has been a few troops stationed for training excersizes. Beyond that nothing. You go out of darwin a little to a small cattle ranch a day and a half drive's south inland, in the desert. Here you meet a kid in his late teens who's lived here all his life, a day and a half's drive from darwin. The nearest farmstead is an hours flight in a Cessna 172 away. (remember the T16 thing? Training craft? See a link here?)

This kid hardly knows who George W Bush is, nevermind Al Gore!

Add to this a father who tries to hide things (history) from the kid. and never mentiones "Al Gore" Well... since he doesn't exactly have many friends (I'm just going down the road (4 hours away) to see my friends... and pick up a couple batteries)


I like this better than China, because at least there are american troops sometimes stationed in Darwin, whereas in China, the only american troops there would be in the alternitave history when World War 3 starts.

Tychu wrote:Luke dosent know of Vader mainly because Lukes Uncle Owen hid alot from him. He wouldnt tell Luke who Ben was and he wouldnt let Ben give Luke his fathers lightsaber when he was old enough just to keep Luke from being curious about his heritage. And correct me if im wrong but wasnt it during the time of ANH the Empire only had a small outpost on Tattooine and no major Imperial prescence was on the planet only until the droids became an issue. I mean Ben wouldnt hide on a planet full of Imperial ears and eyes. To make it simply Tatooine is to remote and Uncle Owen hid alot from Luke

I like this explanation the best of any that anyone has presented. Uncle Owen let Luke virtually nothing about his father, chances are he knew little about galactic politics, except that he thought the Empire was evil.

The Elvis comparison is a good one, but I have a question: What if someone lives in a culturally retarded area and doesn't know about American pop or country music?

And this assumes that Vader was as well known in the Empire as Elvis is on Earth. The opening crawl refers to Vader and his men as the Empire's "sinister agents". Maybe Vader isn't as well known as some think.

Another reason I have no use for the EU.

Vader was a recognised figure in the Empire. IIRC in the Courtship of Princess Leia one of Warlord Zsinj's bridge officers recalls a child hood memory of Vader heading an Imperial Parade in Coruscant. Also he is mentioned in the Old Imperial Museum(sp?) as the last True Jedi, this is stated in the Rogue Squardon books when they are scouting Coruscant.