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Posted: 2002-10-26 12:18am
by Vympel
Russian spec forces kicked ass and took names. Most impressive. I was expecting hundreds of dead hostages.
Posted: 2002-10-26 12:23am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Excellent operation. Casualties appear so far like they've been much lower than I could have possibly hoped for among the hostages, and I'm surprised any of the terrorists survived. Hopefully the Russians forget they instituted due process a while back whilst dealing with them.
Putin's popularity rating in Russia is probably going to soar now; whatever else he's done he's managed to make their security forces much more able to deal with a situation like this, though precisely how able we won't be able to determine until we get a firm body count and can confirm if they killed or caught all the terrs.
Applause to the Russians who went in there for risking their lives on such a noble cause.
Hopefully now we can expect Russia to stand with us on other issues relevant to removing this menace of Islamofascism from the world.
Posted: 2002-10-26 12:28am
by Enlightenment
Current reports from the CBC and BBC indicate at least 20 dead. It is not known what proportion of this total were Muslims or victims.
The Times of India is reporting that at least 36 Muslims were sent to Allah and that ten victims were killed in the assault.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms. ... d=26324550
Dutchess of Zeon: Russia has always been on side when it comes to wiping out violent Islam. It's just that they, like quite a fair bit of the world, don't see all that much of a connection between
Iraq and Islamic terrorism.
This post suffered a gateway timeout. (504)
Posted: 2002-10-26 05:26am
by Oberleutnant
According to the latest news I've heard, 10-30 hostages were killed. An Australian diplomat claims that no foreigners were among them. The shootout between the Russian special forces and the terrorists lasted an hour, during which 32-36 Chechens were killed. There's supposedely one Russian casualty.
Wow, I'm impressed! An amazing operation indeed.
After Russia and UK, France has probably the best military in Europe, that has performed well in post-Indochina era. Don't diss them too much, even if it's for fun.
France's military expenditures are fourth biggest in the world. Just look at the recent events in Ivory Coast, for example, who were the first to go in to protect foreign civilians? The French troops. Who has the only carrier in Europe that is capable of launching conventional aircrafts? The French...
67 hostages killed, over 750 rescued; all the terrs gotten.
Posted: 2002-10-26 06:49am
by The Duchess of Zeon
MOSCOW (Oct. 26) - Sixty-seven of the hostages held in a Moscow theater by Chechen rebels for several days died during the ordeal, the deputy interior minister said Saturday.
But more than 750 hostages were saved, Deputy Interior Minister Vladimir Vasilyev said several hours after Russian special forces stormed the theater.
He said 34 of the approximately 50 hostage-takers were killed, including the leader, and he confirmed that a special gas was used to knock out everyone in the theater and allow the rescue operation to proceed.
No children were among the dead, Vasilyev said.
News reports said President Vladimir Putin went to one of the Moscow hospitals where hundreds of freed hostages were taken by bus and ambulance.
Earlier, Russian news agencies reported that none of the foreign hostages, including three Americans, was killed during the crisis, which began Wednesday night during a performance of the popular musical ''Nord-Ost.'' The agencies cited diplomats at foreign missions in Moscow.
Federal Security Service chief Nikolai Patrushev told Putin that none of the estimated 50 captors escaped.
Interior Minister Boris Gryzlov also told Putin about 30 accomplices of the gunmen were arrested in the Moscow area, but details were not immediately available.
At least three people were killed by the gunmen inside the theater. A young woman was killed in the early hours of the crisis, although it was not clear if she was a hostage or a distraught relative who rushed into the building. Early Saturday, officials said the captors killed two hostages and wounded two others.
The hostage-takers earlier threatened to begin killing their captives at dawn Saturday. After the two deaths, officials reached the captors by phone but then quickly said their negotiations had failed, and the raid began.
Russian television footage from inside the theater showed the camouflage-clad body of the gunmen's leader, Movsar Barayev, lying on his back amid blood and broken glass, a cognac bottle placed at one of his lifeless hands.
In the theater hall, the corpses of several female captors, clad in black robes and head coverings, sprawled in the red plush seats, their heads thrown back or on their folded hands, as if asleep.
Canisters loaded with explosives and metal fragments were attached to the waists of some captors, who threatened to blow up the theater if their demand for Russian troops' withdrawal from the rebel republic of Chechnya was not met.
Outside city Hospital 13, dozens of hostage relatives gathered, waiting for word or the appearance of a treasured face.
Hostage Olga Dolotova embraced her mother, Galina, when she walked out, then hunched and pulled her jacket hood over head to shield herself from journalists.
Galina Dolotova said her 32-year-old daughter appeared to have been one of the hostages least affected by the gas, but still ''she was in terrible shape'' when she was brought in.
State-controlled ORT television showed freed hostages being revived at Sklifosovsky Hospital, Moscow's main emergency-care facility. Footage showed a young woman on a bed in a hallway, stirring as if just coming out of the gas and raising up on one elbow, looking around uncomprehendingly.
How the gas was spread through the building was not immediately known, but workers were seen digging around sewers and steam pipes near the theater in the first day of the crisis.
There were no immediate reports of any deaths among the special forces, the ITAR-Tass news agency said, citing the so-called ''operative staff'' coordinating Russia's response to the crisis.
The assault came after a night of heavy explosions and repeated bursts of gunfire.
Sergei Ignatchenko, spokesman for the Federal Security Service, said the operation to free the hostages began when the rebels began executing captives.
Earlier, a mediator who met with the gunmen said they promised to release the hostages if Putin declared an end to the war in Chechnya and began withdrawing troops.
The new demands were brought out of the theater just before midnight Friday by Anna Politkovskaya, a Russian journalist respected by Chechens for her war reporting and called in by rebels to mediate.
Asked if the captors seemed to be preparing to kill hostages, Politkovskaya said they told her, ''We're going to wait only a little while.''
Politkovskaya listed rebel demands, and foremost were Putin's declaration of an end to the war and the start of a Russian withdrawal from any region in Chechnya to show good will. If verified, the rebels promised to free the hostages.
She said the captors agreed to her suggestion that verification be done by Lord Judd, a member of the Council of Europe who has made many trips to investigate the human rights situation in Chechnya.
The demand was the first time the gunmen revealed specific conditions for freeing the hostages, who included Americans, Britons, Dutch, Australians, Canadians, Austrians and Germans.
The Kremlin made only one public counteroffer, when Patrushev said the hostage-takers' lives would be guaranteed if they freed their captives.
Daria Morgunova, a spokeswoman for the musical, said an actor who was among the hostages called her to say the captors threatened Friday to begin killing hostages the next morning.
The gunmen released 19 hostages Friday, including eight children between 6 and 12 years old. Dressed in winter coats - and one clutching a teddy bear with aviator goggles, the children appeared healthy as they left the building accompanied by Red Cross workers.
Seven adults were freed earlier in the day and four citizens of Azerbaijan were released after dark, Russian officials said.
Politkovskaya, a reporter for the independent Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta, arranged earlier for the hostage-takers to accept deliveries of water and warm meals for the captives.
She was one of several influential figures entering the theater late Friday in efforts to mediate, although the hostage-takers derided the Kremlin for not sending high-level officials to negotiate.
Deputy Interior Minister Vladimir Vasilyev was quoted by news agencies as saying unsuccessful attempts had been made to contact Aslan Maskhadov, a rebel leader who was president of Chechnya between the Russian troops' withdrawal in 1996 and the resumption of the war three years later.
''The leader of the terrorist act is Maskhadov. It was organized with his participation,'' Vasilyev said in televised comments, while state-run Russian networks broadcast footage meant to prove the link.
That footage showed Maskhadov saying rebels have shifted from guerrilla warfare to an ''offensive'' strategy and adding, ''I am certain that in the final stage we will carry out a still more unique action, like the jihad, and with this operation we will liberate our land from the Russian aggressors.''
AP-NY-10-26-02 0557EDT
(AOL News Service, no link available.)
Posted: 2002-10-26 09:03am
by Vympel
67 is a high toll- but VERY low compared to the 700 odd hostages. An excellent operation by Russian forces. Considering that there were over 40 tangos, it went very well indeed.
As I was hoping, that fucker who led them is among the dead. I hope he got a 5.45 round to the head, rather than blow himself up.
Posted: 2002-10-26 09:11am
by Grand Admiral Thrawn
Pretty low dead count.
Posted: 2002-10-26 09:30am
by Admiral Piett
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Hopefully now we can expect Russia to stand with us on other issues relevant to removing this menace of Islamofascism from the world.
I do not know,maybe they still remember when you unleashed the islamofascists... ehm "freedom fighters" against them a couple of decades ago...
Posted: 2002-10-26 09:38am
by Mr Bean
Movsar Barayev, the Chechens' ringleader, was killed in the raid
Excellent, and to be Honset anything under 100 dead would have been amazing considering the explosives
67 causaultes is high but consider the circusmtances
Looks like the Spantiza have not lost it(Of course I would have handled the situatio diffrently, IE Let them go now or I turn Checnia and all of its citizens into a puddle of Radio-active goo, Think I'm kidding? I have twelve ICBMS aimed at your Captial, you have 1 hour to release half the hostages or I fire, and then a second devstation salvo of four ICBMS one hour after that)
(From an Acdemic standpoint it would have been quite intresting to see World Opionion and likewise plus how the T's reacted to that statment)
Posted: 2002-10-26 09:44am
by weemadando
*Miss Cleo mode*
I see armoured divisions... Rolling across Chechnya... I see a very very pissed off Putin...
*/Miss Cleo mode*
Posted: 2002-10-26 09:45am
by Vympel
Admiral Piett wrote:The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Hopefully now we can expect Russia to stand with us on other issues relevant to removing this menace of Islamofascism from the world.
I do not know,maybe they still remember when you unleashed the islamofascists... ehm "freedom fighters" against them a couple of decades ago...
Let's not kid ourselves eh?
It was realpolitik then, its realpolitik now, as it always was with nations and as it always will be.
There are no permanent allies. Only permanent interests.
Where the interests of the USA and Russia coincide, they'll fight side-by-side.
You can see how little respect Barayev had for the women: "hear, take this pissy little Makarov pistol, and oh just as an afterthought ... these explosives"
Posted: 2002-10-26 10:10am
by Admiral Piett
Vympel wrote:
There are no permanent allies. Only permanent interests.
That is for sure.
However in this case no more "noble cause" propagandistic bullshit, please.
Posted: 2002-10-26 10:23am
by HemlockGrey
I do not know,maybe they still remember when you unleashed the islamofascists... ehm "freedom fighters" against them a couple of decades ago...
If I recall, we supported the Northern Alliance.
Posted: 2002-10-26 11:14am
by Vympel
Cyril wrote:I do not know,maybe they still remember when you unleashed the islamofascists... ehm "freedom fighters" against them a couple of decades ago...
If I recall, we supported the Northern Alliance.
I believe he was referring to the Mujhadeen (now the Northern Alliance) who fought the Soviets in Afghanistan. The Taliban were relatively new on the scene. Russia supported the Northern Alliance from since the Taliban took power to beyond 9/11.
Posted: 2002-10-26 12:04pm
by Guest
I'm glad Putin didn't negotiate with those bastards. If something like that were to happen in the US (which is possible) I hope Bush doesn't negotiate either.
Posted: 2002-10-26 12:09pm
by Mr Bean
New Info
It seems the Spantiza moved in after the Terriorst Began Shooting the Hostage, It now Appears that acutal Hostages killed during the Raid was under ten, however over 50 where killed in one section of the building it appears now by some Terriorsts who either fliped out and started shooting or where ordered to due so, Which is unknow as all of them where killed in the assult
So the acutal Assult was high succesful though it seems it was a bit-late and brought on by the hosing of over 40 hostages by the Terriorsts
Posted: 2002-10-26 03:39pm
by Mr. B
The only good terrorists are dead terrorists. I hope the same happens to those responsible for Bali too.
Posted: 2002-10-26 04:22pm
by Alyeska
The update I just saw on CNN says 90 dead (hostages and terrorists combined). The female terrorists with the bombs did not explode because the Russians pumped in knock out gas before attacking and all the female terrorists were "sleeping" when the operation kicked off.
Posted: 2002-10-27 01:01am
by Vympel
Mr Bean wrote:New Info
It seems the Spantiza moved in
I think you mean Spetznaz Bean
Posted: 2002-10-27 02:12pm
by TrailerParkJawa
Latest news on the net now indicates over 100 dead. I think think includes the terrorists, but that more people died from the "gas" they used than actually shooting.
This was a truely fucked situation that was bound to end badly, but I bet the Russians will have a really hard time admitting that the "gas" was what killed the hostages, if that turns out to be the case. They still cant break their old habits of hiding the truth from the populace.
Either way, Im not sure they had much choice. This was a bad situation to be in.
Posted: 2002-10-27 02:19pm
by NecronLord
It was still the best option, until the death toll reaches 600 it remains the best choice and a sucessful operation
Posted: 2002-10-27 02:25pm
by TrailerParkJawa
Yeah, it was probably the best option. All I am saying is that the typically Russian response will be something, like: "It was not the gas, but the fact that the victims were not healthy to begin with."
I wonder how something like that would go down here in the West. Im not sure the govt would authorize releasing gas that would kill 10-20% of the hostages. At least I dont think they would.
Posted: 2002-10-27 09:15pm
by The Duchess of Zeon
TrailerParkJawa wrote:Latest news on the net now indicates over 100 dead. I think think includes the terrorists, but that more people died from the "gas" they used than actually shooting.
This was a truely fucked situation that was bound to end badly, but I bet the Russians will have a really hard time admitting that the "gas" was what killed the hostages, if that turns out to be the case. They still cant break their old habits of hiding the truth from the populace.
Either way, Im not sure they had much choice. This was a bad situation to be in.
Indeed. It was a choice between the bombs killing all the hostages, and some of the rescuers too, or pumping in the gas, knowing some of the people weakened by the stress and lack of food and water would die from it, but you'd save some by doing it, but at the same time the blood of the ones who died from the gas would be on your hands.
Some poor bastard on the scene in command of the force surrounding the theatre heard the report of the terrorists firing on the hostages inside. He, literally, undoubtably had only
seconds to make the decision in his head, to send his men in with or without the gas, to risk the building going up and everyone getting killed, or to pump the gas in and know that it might kill a portion of the hostages, but the ones it didn't kill would come out alive.
Whoever it was, he was the man on the scene, he made the judgement call. And more than five hundred people are still alive to be with their families today, so I don't think hindsight can fault him for it.
Posted: 2002-10-27 10:11pm
by Enlightenment
Current death toll is 117 hostages with several hundred more still in hospital and an undetermined number of those in intensive care. All but one was killed by gas exposure. Don't be surprised if the death toll rises.
The Russians should start avenging their losses by gunning down Chechen children. 1000:1 seems a fair exchange rate: every one of them killed young is one fewer potential martyr for Allah.
Posted: 2002-10-27 10:28pm
by Vympel
It's a case of 'moral mathematics'. Without the gas- casualties would've been much higher. What choice did they have?