post Wars vs Trek, Could the Empire destroy a BLACK HOLE?

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2004-06-12 05:01am

Solauren wrote:It wouldn't need to produce them, just dump loads of Anti-matter down them.

Glad to see you missed half the debate

.

Or was this humour ?

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-06-12 10:19am

Humour.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-06-12 04:00pm

One idea: Pour exotic matter (with the quality of anti-mass) or fire a beam of negative energy into the black hole: either one will neutralize the mass of the singularity.

Idea two: fire a Quantum torpedo into the hole. The explosion will open up an eleven dimensional manifold with far greater "surface area" than the natural four dimensional gravitic manifold of the hole. with X^7 times the amount of hawking radiation going on, the hole wil "evaporate" that much faster.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-06-12 04:32pm

If negative mass is all you need, dump Hypermatter fuel into it.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2004-06-12 04:39pm

I thought hypermatter was 'positive' ( aka, how would they get 'positive' energy from its annihilation ? ) ?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-06-12 08:09pm

The Nomad wrote:

I thought hypermatter was 'positive' ( aka, how would they get 'positive' energy from its annihilation ? ) ?

It would have to be negative for hyperdrive to work as it's stated to(Ep II ICS). It's 'ballast' to drop the overall ship mass to below zero.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-06-12 11:57pm

I like the hypermatter idea.

Drop in a buttload of hypermatter fuel, and kiss the Black Hole bye-bye

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-06-13 03:47am

SirNitram wrote:
The Nomad wrote:

I thought hypermatter was 'positive' ( aka, how would they get 'positive' energy from its annihilation ? ) ?
It would have to be negative for hyperdrive to work as it's stated to(Ep II ICS). It's 'ballast' to drop the overall ship mass to below zero.

If its "negative", how do you turn it "off" while in normalspace?

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2004-06-13 05:43am

Particle pairs are little pairs of matter/antimatter particles that pop in and out of the existance in otherwise empty space. Happens every second, all over the Universe. Normally, they pop back out of existance without any problem.

The problem comes when a black hole captures one of them, often the antimatter particle, and loses a tiny bit of it's mass and the matter particle skirts off. Or the other way around.

I know this nonsense has already been dealt with, but...

Nitram, if an equal amount of positive and negative particles were being sucked into the black hole, they would balance out. There'd be no net loss to the black hole. If you had taken your own logic a step further, you would have realized this, and would have realized that this couldn't possibly be the cause of Hawking radiation.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-06-13 12:55pm

SPOOFE; I had this same arguement in a thread over on STRAIGHT DOPE a while back, and got a reply proving how virtual particle pairs are indeed the cause of Hawking radiation, though the explanation went way over my head.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-06-13 01:25pm

Enola Straight wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
The Nomad wrote:

I thought hypermatter was 'positive' ( aka, how would they get 'positive' energy from its annihilation ? ) ?
It would have to be negative for hyperdrive to work as it's stated to(Ep II ICS). It's 'ballast' to drop the overall ship mass to below zero.
If its "negative", how do you turn it "off" while in normalspace?

Bugger all if I know. How do you make a subatomic knot of spacetime? They manipulate the mass of the ship somehow while the complex mass stays the same.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2004-06-13 03:58pm

SirNitram wrote:
Enola Straight wrote:
SirNitram wrote: It would have to be negative for hyperdrive to work as it's stated to(Ep II ICS). It's 'ballast' to drop the overall ship mass to below zero.
If its "negative", how do you turn it "off" while in normalspace?
Bugger all if I know. How do you make a subatomic knot of spacetime? They manipulate the mass of the ship somehow while the complex mass stays the same.

Well, the AOTCICS makes no sense here. How could the DS, TF Coreships and all annihilate hypermatter in order to get energy to power their shields, weapons, sublight drives etc if it had negative energy ?

If they annihilate it by contact with normal matter ( which should be impossible given their gravitational repulsion ), then the energy gain is zero ( (m + -m)c² = 0 ).

Well, they may use "hyperluminal hypermatter particles" ( that's how they're called, uh ? ) but that doesn't mean they have to be negative, therefore they're positive since they have to be in order to get energy as stated in both SWICS and SW2ICS, and exactly how they proceed in order to make the ship go tachyon is unknown.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2004-06-14 02:48am

Holy crap, Enola Straight, you're on the SDMB, too?

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-06-14 11:06am

Shit...where have you been, man?

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2004-06-18 02:17am

The original post said the Empire could go near lightspeed through the black matter, so, if the black hole at the end of the tunnel, why move it? just go around it through the black matter for a short while until you are on the other side, it may even help conceal where they came from.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-06-19 11:41am

Because the Emperor wants it destroyed.

hvb · Post by **hvb** » 2004-06-20 09:57am

Ups right you are... my solution on page 1 only solves the tactical problem stated of removing the plug, not the problem of destroying the black hole.

To destroy the black hole I would put it in a huge refrigerator:
The reason Hawking radiation does not bleed off a larger black hole is that background radiation infall is greater then the Hawking radiation going out.
So we need only create a space with a temperature closer to absolute zero then the universe at large, and a larger black hole can bleed off as well if placed inside.
For a mass 3.8Msol black hole this temperature needs to be frigging low, and it would still take billions of years to bleed off; but the scheme has the charm of being physical and will be much faster then to wait for the univers to cool off by expansion to achieve the same effect over the next googolplex years or so on its own, as an explanding universe nears its "steady state" phase.

The real problem here of course is that the SW civilization is unlikely survive long enough to see the project to its end.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-06-20 08:50pm

The Emperor dislikes your idea, as it will take to long.

Hmmmm, could the Empire use a modified Genesis Device to destroy the black hole?

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2004-06-21 07:55am

Solauren wrote:Hmmmm, could the Empire use a modified Genesis Device to destroy the black hole?

I hardly see how. The matter is stuck inside the black hole. Even if you could reorganize it inside, it couldn't expand past the event horizon.

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2004-08-01 06:12pm

Dumping antimatter will not affect the black hole much at all--antimatter still has positive energy. It will only feed it more.

Dumping 1e35J of laser power to its along one direction (which should be within the Empire's capability, as the Death Star demonstrates, particularly since it does not need to be in a single shot, just total exposure) into that black hole (with mass approximately the Chandrasekhar limit, 3e30kg) will accelerate it to about 0.01% lightspeed. At that rate, 1AU distance will be achieved in under two months, at which point the black hole's gravitational pull will be made completely irrelevant by Imperial standards: 0.009m/s², which is nothing to ships which routinely escape gravitational fields of about 10m/s².

This seems like an acceptable solution.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-08-01 09:28pm

The Nomad wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Enola Straight wrote: If its "negative", how do you turn it "off" while in normalspace?
Bugger all if I know. How do you make a subatomic knot of spacetime? They manipulate the mass of the ship somehow while the complex mass stays the same.
Well, the AOTCICS makes no sense here. How could the DS, TF Coreships and all annihilate hypermatter in order to get energy to power their shields, weapons, sublight drives etc if it had negative energy ?

If they annihilate it by contact with normal matter ( which should be impossible given their gravitational repulsion ), then the energy gain is zero ( (m + -m)c² = 0 ).

Well, they may use "hyperluminal hypermatter particles" ( that's how they're called, uh ? ) but that doesn't mean they have to be negative, therefore they're positive since they have to be in order to get energy as stated in both SWICS and SW2ICS, and exactly how they proceed in order to make the ship go tachyon is unknown.

My rough understanding of it was since things moving FTL are also moving backwards in time, and since from a quantum point of view there is no difference between antimatter and matter, then all a hypermatter reactor was doing was using the "adjustible mass" property of complex matter to artifically increase the amount being anhilated at in the reactor, so they got the benefirs of having a lot of mass without having to actually carry it.

But I've never taken any courses in relativity and quantum mechanics, so I could easily be horribly wrong on that point.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-08-01 09:31pm

Didn't trek have an episode where they had to shift or adjust a quantum filament? Just use that tech to use one to move the black hole.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-08-02 02:04pm

Nope.

A Quantum Filament can be thought of as a bolt of space lightning...the E-D had to do some emergency repairs in engineering after the ship was hit.

You may be thinking of a Cosmic String Fragment...a line segment analogy to the point singularity of a Black Hole.

There the E-D used the Swiss Army Deflector Dish to create a harmonic resonant frequency to get rid of the 2-D entities which held the ship in their gravitational wake on the way to a Cosmic String.

Neither the CS nor QF was "defeated" using tech.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-08-02 02:44pm

I can't read the thread through Solauren's semen.