ROTJ novelization.

[Stofsk]

The Batle Meditation can trained to anybody, but it needs normally a Jedi/Sith master to be used

If that is true then:

* Why can't my character learn it?

* Why is Bastila considered so special, being a mere Padawan (besides looking great in a metallic bikini)? She's a mere Padawan, yet can use Battle Meditation.

* Why is Battle Meditation specifically referred to by the Jedi Council on Dantooine as a rare talent?

[Lord Revan]

The Batle Meditation can trained to anybody, but it needs normally a Jedi/Sith master to be used

If that is true then:

* Why can't my character learn it?

Don't know what your character is like, so can't tell.

* Why is Bastila considered so special, being a mere Padawan (besides looking great in a metallic bikini)? She's a mere Padawan, yet can use Battle Meditation.

It's never fully explained, but it seem she has special gift for it.

* Why is Battle Meditation specifically referred to by the Jedi Council on Dantooine as a rare talent?

Being master only talent would make it a rather rare talent.

[Stofsk]

Don't know what your character is like, so can't tell.

That's not the point. My character progressed to Jedi Master, yet Battle Meditation isn't a feat or power he (or she) can learn. Bastila was unique in that regard.

It's never fully explained, but it seem she has special gift for it.

Well duh.

Being master only talent would make it a rather rare talent.

Now I remind you of what you wrote earlier:

The Batle Meditation can trained to anybody, but it needs normally a Jedi/Sith master to be used

The only person we see use Battle Meditation is Bastila and Palpatine (maaaaaybe Jorus C'baoth, unless he did something different). You say that Battle Meditation can be trained by anybody, but the simple fact of the matter is in the Canon and EU we have two definite users, and one maybe. Bastila could use it before she was a master, so that's not a pre-requisite for it's use. Palpatine could use it, and he was a Sith master. No-one else has demonstrated it's use.

We are told that it is a rare gift and Bastila is considered unique in her time - they considered her so crucial that some thought the war hinged on her ability. Palpatine's ability was so pronounced that once he died, Imperial discipline took a nose dive (HttE). Jorus C'baoth may have used the same ability or something similar to it (or a more blunt force version of it, while Bastila's and Palpatine's may have been more subtle - corroborated by the fact Jorus was insane, while Bastila was a stable Jedi and Palpatine a cunning mastermind).

So once again, I have yet to see anything to suggest that Battle Meditation is something easily learned by 'anybody' - only rare and particularly gifted force users seem able to do so.

[Lord Revan]

So seem harder to learn then I did think. Well I have no problem with that.

[Knife]

P. 46 "I was a Jedi rule-of-thumb, but it took the soldiers in the second skiff by surprise: when outnumbered, attack. This drives the force of the enemy in toward himself."

The Force: Jedi prefer attack over defence, even when outnumbered. One could specualte that "driving the force of the enemy in toward himself" gives the Jedi an advantage when using the Force in battle.

Nitpick. It doesn't say that Jedi prefer attack over defence all the time as you imply (maybe I'm reading you wrong). All we can gather from this is that is their usual tactic when outnumbered, but not in all combat situations.

Actually it makes alot of sence when you look at their combat tactics. Usually single if just a handful of combatents utilizing melee weapons. If your surrounded, attacking is a phycological blow to the enemy. Makes them think you know something he/she doesn't. Throws them off balence and off sets the disadvantage of their numbers for a small amount of time.

Surprise attack if you will.

At some point, the Jedi had a basic graps of combat even if by the late years of the OR they shat it all away.

But I remember that line in the book, kind of shots a hole in some of the EU crap.

[Stormbringer]

So once again, I have yet to see anything to suggest that Battle Meditation is something easily learned by 'anybody' - only rare and particularly gifted force users seem able to do so.

Or perhaps it's something that can be done by those of sufficient strength but it takes a very adept user to avoid the kind of brain damage that C'boath inflicted?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Of course not, don't be stupid. What I mean is that the shield is shown to be projected ONLY from a small radius around the planet-bound generator and ONLY surrounding Death Star. It in no way shows the shield to surround or envelop Endor whatsoever, other than the tiny radius around the generator. If the shield additionally enveloped Endor, then it would have been shown to do so. But it didn't, so I conclude that it didn't and that Endor was almost entirely unprotected.

It's that simple.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Christ, you've been on here how long, posturing and puffing out your chest and you don't know that shit? Buy a fucking book on logic and read it before you pontificate again.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I do fucking know that, yet because there is no evidence to state otherwise in the film, I don't personally think it is likely that such can occur.

And if you think any of this shit has anything to do with arrogance, you are again mistaken about me.

[Thanas]

We know however from the SW Insider, that GA Declann (wonder if I got that name right) was working either as a relay for Palpatine or practicing battle meditation himself at Endor.


We also know that Palpatine was sending Mara commands through the force during the battle.

So I guess Palpy was good at Multitasking.

[Crazedwraith]

Fair point. However- we know that Alderaan had defenses as strong as any other planet in the Empire from the ANH novelization. This is just another reason to doubt the "we have no weapons" line.

Last time I checked Shields weren't weapons. Having Strong Defensive shields does not nessacarily mean they have weapons.

[Stark]

How bout Leia (a terrorist leader) being a major figure in Alderaan politics? Isn't she even a senator? The rebel troops in ANH are Alderaanian troops; they fought to the death rather than surrender to Vader's ship. At the very least they were supplying arms, but they may have been a major element in the rebellion... and they were hardly making any secret of it. They even tried to use Leias diplomatic immunity as a cover to supply the rebels with state secrets. Their military became part of the rebellion. Its obvious that Alderaan was no less militarised than your average planet.

She even said 'we have no weapons' when SHE owned a fucking gun! I mean, really...

[Batman]

How bout Leia (a terrorist leader) being a major figure in Alderaan politics? Isn't she even a senator? The rebel troops in ANH are Alderaanian troops; they fought to the death rather than surrender to Vader's ship. At the very least they were supplying arms

Oh please. One measly corvette does NOT equal supplying arms...

Their military became part of the rebellion

Where does it say they had a military and that it was part of the Rebellion?
Heck, for all we know that wasn't even an Alderaanian ship, but belonged directly to the Republic...

Its obvious that Alderaan was no less militarised than your average planet.
She even said 'we have no weapons' when SHE owned a fucking gun! I mean, really...

Erm- one lousy (assuming it was Alderaanian in the first place) corvette with a couple dozen grunts wearing sidearms plus one senator with a sporting blaster do not a mililitarized planet make.
Unless by 'average' you mena they 'all' have such pitiful forces

[Knife]

Oh please. One measly corvette does NOT equal supplying arms...

At the time of ANH, two squadrons of fighters was a big deal for the Rebels. Thus a Corvette would have been realitively a big deal as well. Alderaan may have not been a weapons depot, but it was definately financing the Rebellion.

Where does it say they had a military and that it was part of the Rebellion?
Heck, for all we know that wasn't even an Alderaanian ship, but belonged directly to the Republic...

It was the Senators' consular ship. So either those troops were Imperial versions of Secret Service/Diplomatic Security or they were Alderinian troops serving the Viceroy and his daughter.

Since those same uniforms were seen at Yavin, either those Imperial troops defected with Leia or they were Alderinian troops which reinforces the idea that the Yavin Cell WAS the Alderinian cell and they were contributing to the Rebellion.

This is further reinforced by Leia's pitch to Obi, in that her father needs Obi Wan's help in his fight against the Empire. The Empire may not know that it is fighting Organa, but he's definately fighting them and using Alderinian forces/equipment and resources to do it.

Erm- one lousy (assuming it was Alderaanian in the first place) corvette with a couple dozen grunts wearing sidearms plus one senator with a sporting blaster do not a mililitarized planet make.
Unless by 'average' you mena they 'all' have such pitiful forces

The fact that their 'consulars ship' was armed, shows that the Alderinians are not against weapons or are extreme pacifists. Their troopers onboard the Tantive, fought in an organized and highly trained way and delayed the enemy to give their charge a chance to get away, often by buying time with their lives.

These are not action of a random group of people who were given guns with no training and told to stand around and look cool.

Also keep in mind that Leia was on route for a 'subtle' mission to get a Jedi Master. You know, some thing that you wouldn't want to advertise by having a god damn taskforce following you.

[Batman]

Oh please. One measly corvette does NOT equal supplying arms...

At the time of ANH, two squadrons of fighters was a big deal for the Rebels. Thus a Corvette would have been realitively a big deal as well. Alderaan may have not been a weapons depot, but it was definately financing the Rebellion.

Financing, no question. Supplying arms, at least on a scale were the planet/the government is assumed to be behind it, IMHO takes more than one Corvette. It may have been a big deal to the Rebels, but to Alderaan?
This is a universe where individuals can own capital ships...

Where does it say they had a military and that it was part of the Rebellion?
Heck, for all we know that wasn't even an Alderaanian ship, but belonged directly to the Republic...

It was the Senators' consular ship. So either those troops were Imperial versions of Secret Service/Diplomatic Security

Entirely possible.

or they were Alderinian troops serving the Viceroy and his daughter.

A double dozen armed guards does not a military make.
Well, technically it propably DOES, but not the point of making Alderaan militarily relevant.

Since those same uniforms were seen at Yavin, either those Imperial troops defected with Leia or they were Alderinian troops

Members of the Alderaanian (Whatever) force being part of the Rebellion does not equal the Aleraanian (whatever) force being, which was what Stark claimed.

which reinforces the idea that the Yavin Cell WAS the Alderinian cell and they were contributing to the Rebellion.

Individual Alderaanians, including (Whatever) force members did.
Never intended to content that. Does not make the entire Alderaanian (Whatever) force a member of the Rebellion.

This is further reinforced by Leia's pitch to Obi, in that her father needs Obi Wan's help in his fight against the Empire. The Empire may not know that it is fighting Organa, but he's definately fighting them and using Alderinian forces/equipment and resources to do it.

Not under contention. Does not require these contributions to be substantial from the Alderaanian (leave alone imperial) perspective.

Erm- one lousy (assuming it was Alderaanian in the first place) corvette with a couple dozen grunts wearing sidearms plus one senator with a sporting blaster do not a mililitarized planet make.
Unless by 'average' you mean they 'all' have such pitiful forces

The fact that their 'consulars ship' was armed, shows that the Alderinians are not against weapons or are extreme pacifists.

Never claimed they were.

Their troopers onboard the Tantive, fought in an organized and highly trained way and delayed the enemy to give their charge a chance to get away, often by buying time with their lives.
These are not action of a random group of people who were given guns with no training and told to stand around and look cool.

Never claimed it was.

Also keep in mind that Leia was on route for a 'subtle' mission to get a Jedi Master. You know, some thing that you wouldn't want to advertise by having a god damn taskforce following you.

Doesn't mean there would have been one available.
Claiming a statement of 'We have no weapons' in the face of planet-shattering firepower a lie ought to require a little more than that I think...

[Knife]

Doesn't mean there would have been one available.
Claiming a statement of 'We have no weapons' in the face of planet-shattering firepower a lie ought to require a little more than that I think...

In reverse, I think it should take more than a throw away line of a desperate woman trying to save her home, to discount the obvious pieces of Alderinian military in ANH.

Granted, they were not a 'Klingon' type society but with the examples I gave you, it shows that they weren't a bunch of longhair hippies either. They possessed some semblence of military force and were obviously not afraid to use it, if in a covert way.

[Howedar]

I do fucking know that, yet because there is no evidence to state otherwise in the film, I don't personally think it is likely that such can occur.

There are explicit statements that do state otherwise in the canon novel.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I do fucking know that, yet because there is no evidence to state otherwise in the film, I don't personally think it is likely that such can occur.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Do I need to increase the size too? Add color and italics?

You're not stupid and have no excuse to be ignoring the canon policy. You know that the novelisations complement the film, and if something is in the novelisation but not the film, it simply adds to the film story; you can only call override on outright contradiction, and you know that.

[PainRack]

Well, Vympel did a good job, I never even noticed droids having sensors built into them as well as the walkers before.

Here's a couple of my own notes, regarind the Endor battle.

Admiral Ackbar stepped forward. His speciality was Imperial defense procedures.

This suggested that not Tarkin review of the Outer Rim also allowed Ackbar access to Imperial tactical doctrine on a small scale level, as well as operational and stragetic levels,i.e, the Tarkin Doctrine.

...monitoring ingress and egress of vehicles through the deflector shield. It was an operation involving a thousand scurrying ships, and everything was proceeding with maximum efficiency, ....

The scale of transit through the Endor deflector shield.

Artoo sat, unmoving except for the little radar screen that stuck out the top of his blue and silver dome,revolving, scanning the forest............ Artoo led the way, his revolving sensor sensing...

limited radar Sensors could be used in the forest, without Imperial dectection.

..battalion after battalion emerged in formation, to fire off toward the Death Star........

The Rebel Fleet was organised in battalion formation. It will be interesting to know what this means.

Lando was worried from the moment they came out of hyperspace. He checked his screen, reversed polarities, queried the computer

What is this "reversed polarities"? The only connection we know is that it is related to the inability to get some kind of reading on the shield.

Red Leader's voice shouted back over the headphones.'I get no reading, are you sure?

This may suggest that X-wing sensors are not delicate enough to determine the non-existence of the shield, unlike the Millenium falcon.

Take evasive action. Green Group, steer course for Holding Sector. MG-7 Blue group-

Green Group may refers to fighters, but the additional of MG-7 Blue group is most likely not. If they are ships, this may consist of a rearguard force, as Admiral Ackbar prepares to retreat. In that case, the use of a holding sector, probably an assembly point for last point formation changes for the fleet group as a rearguard area is indicative of Ackbar flexibility.

All ships, stand your position. Wait for my command to return! Ut was far too late for Lando and his attack squadrons to heed that order, though. They were already way ahead of the pack, heading straight for the oncoming Imperial Fleet

What does this order mean? This also describes the scale of the starfighter battle, and the closeness of Lando perspective to the Imperial fleet onscreen.

Wedge Antilles, Luke's old buddy from the first campaign led the X-wings

A disrepcacny with the movie?

We're moving to point three across the axis- Two of them coming in at twenty degrees

This method of navigation and battle control appears vastly different to that practised in ANH. However, similarities still apply, "There're four marks at point three five. Cover me!" for example.

Two fleet captains stood behind him,

Description of naval rank, and staff aide for Admiral Piett.

Flustered controllers were still trying to contact the Liberty, while fleet captains ran from screen to port, shouting, directing, misdirecting.

Equivalence of aides for Admiral Ackbar are Fleet captains. Glimpse of Rebel command network.

While the Death Star beam methodically disintergrated the Rebel ships.

Multiple uses of the Death Star main weapon was observed.

That's strange, I recall there was a quote about the Rebels formation and its importance at the end of the hyperspace exit, similar in content to that found in Wedge attack on Bilbringi in the Thrawn campaign, but I can't find it.

looked like nothing so much as the stuffed baby Wookie doll Leia remembered playing with as a child

Hmmm, looks like Wookies were not only adult companions, but the childhood companions of princesses

IP: The Neb B Frigates in particular were referred to as "Space Cruisers" in the TESB Script, not Rebel Cruisers. Indeed, ROTJ is the only novelisation to have ever deviated from the traditional "cruiser/corvette" for the Rebs, while "downgrading" ISDs to Destroyers, although it adds a caveat of supervessels. Prior to that, and indeed, the first SW artworks explicitly states the Devastator as an Imperial cruiser, TESB, where we were first introduced to the notion of Imperial Star Destroyers, and the Executor as the Largest of All star destroyers, followed up its next line with "5 cruisers", whereas later in the holoconference, they were "battleship commanders".

As for the TFNers, they got their data from the Truce at Bakura sourcebook.

[Crazedwraith]

Wedge Antilles, Luke's old buddy from the first campaign led the X-wings

A disrepcacny with the movie?

How so? Wedge was Red Leader at Endor. Red Wing was mainly X-Wings and Wedge was Luke's friend from the Battle of Yavin? Where's the disrepcacny?

[Batman]

Doesn't mean there would have been one available.
Claiming a statement of 'We have no weapons' in the face of planet-shattering firepower a lie ought to require a little more than that I think...

In reverse, I think it should take more than a throw away line of a desperate woman trying to save her home, to discount the obvious pieces of Alderinian military in ANH.

Why? What litle Aldeaanian military forces we see do not amount to a credible military. If there is evidence for a more credible force, it has not been presented so far.
Why should a force that tiny be counted?

Granted, they were not a 'Klingon' type society but with the examples I gave you, it shows that they weren't a bunch of longhair hippies either.

Never argued they were.

They possessed some semblence of military force and were obviously not afraid to use it, if in a covert way.

And I don't think I ever argued that, either. The operative phrase here being 'some semblence of'.

[Illuminatus Primus]

IP:

What the hell are you talking about? Are you trying to derail this thread? By your own statement you're going well outside the frame of this conversation on the ROTJ novelisation. We had a brief pique of interest in the ship-classification shit and all parties in that thread decided to leave it at rest. I'm not going to destroy this thread arguing that with you.

[vakundok]

Well, Vympel did a good job, I never even noticed droids having sensors built into them as well as the walkers before.

Interestingly, the ANH novelisation also mentions pain (felt by C3PO). EDIT: Emm, more correctly he did not feel it at all.

Red Leader's voice shouted back over the headphones.'I get no reading, are you sure?

This may suggest that X-wing sensors are not delicate enough to determine the non-existence of the shield, unlike the Millenium falcon.

No. The sensors of the Falcon were also unable to get any readings regarding to the presence of the shield. Lando's instinct saved his life along with many fighters.

Take evasive action. Green Group, steer course for Holding Sector. MG-7 Blue group-

Hm, I thought MG7 was the identifier of the sector. In the script available on the net, there is no comma between sector and MG(?)7. Neither in the translation. (I know, it does not count in this case.)

All ships, stand your position. Wait for my command to return! Ut was far too late for Lando and his attack squadrons to heed that order, though. They were already way ahead of the pack, heading straight for the oncoming Imperial Fleet

What does this order mean?

From the context, the goal of the order was to stop the rebell fleet from getting closer to the imperial. Likely Ackbar wanted some time to decide how they could escape (return to hyperspace or even Sullust).

[PainRack]

How so? Wedge was Red Leader at Endor. Red Wing was mainly X-Wings and Wedge was Luke's friend from the Battle of Yavin? Where's the disrepcacny?

In the movie, Wedge led a mixed squadron of forces, that included approximately 2 X-wings, a Y-wing and IIRC, A-wing and B-wing.

[PainRack]

No. The sensors of the Falcon were also unable to get any readings regarding to the presence of the shield. Lando's instinct saved his life along with many fighters.

Lando: We should be able to get a reading on the shield, up or down.

Hm, I thought MG7 was the identifier of the sector. In the script available on the net, there is no comma between sector and MG(?)7. Neither in the translation. (I know, it does not count in this case.)

Hmmm, I never thought of it that way. That will neccesitate multiple holding sectors, holding points for the various fighter groups though...... hmmm

All ships, stand your position. Wait for my command to return! Ut was far too late for Lando and his attack squadrons to heed that order, though. They were already way ahead of the pack, heading straight for the oncoming Imperial Fleet

From the context, the goal of the order was to stop the rebell fleet from getting closer to the imperial. Likely Ackbar wanted some time to decide how they could escape (return to hyperspace or even Sullust).

That was initially what I thought, but from a pure reading of the novel, it doesn't seem that way because Lando calrissan was stated to be "way ahead" of the pack. Furthermore, the movie also depicted Lando fighters moving in to cut off the TIE fighters.

[CJvR]

Thoughts, comments? What do you think?

I like the printed version better than the filmed one.