Was Vader Well Known?

[Stormbringer]

*dons never-read-EU asbestos suit*

Isn't everyone knowing Vader is a magical person almost expressly rejected by ANH, where the whole Jedi thing is laughed at, even by Imperial higher-ups who were old enough to remember the Jedi?

Only one of them actually scoffed and even then it was more disregarding his ability than that he could and did use the force.

And Stormbringer, I agree Han would've fired anyway (I know I do when bizarre bondage-masters gatecrash dinner), but by then he did know exactly who Vader was, so its not important.

Okay, point settled.

Its a shame the EU talks up his officer slayage. He didn't seem so unbalanced in ANH, so I just figured it was just stress.

Except it's not stress nor unbalanced. It's simply intolerance for what he perceived as incompetence and it's never said to be otherwise in the movies.

Stormbringers comment on Imperial secrecy is interesting; obviously, since they can hide a DS construction, they could conceal Vader's presence, or history, or attitudes, and it makes sense to do so... so the EU Imperial posterboy schtick doesn't really make any sense.

Except it makes a lot of sense for the Palpy to continue to play to Anakin's ego while using Vader as very public symbol. After all, part of the propoganda (from Wedge's Gamble) is that Vader helped bring down the corrupt and wicked Jedi Order because he was a pure Jedi. Not unlike Phillip's destruction of the Knight's Templar. It ties Palpatine to shining ideals that the people believed the Jedi embodied while providing a convinient excuse for rid himself of them.

As for the other darkside adepts, he did use them as you suggest. Emperor's Hand(s) any one?

[Stormbringer]

Han Solo, for one, also rejected the whole Force thing, though he ought to have been experienced enough to know better.

Perhaps, but nothing in Han's experience would have given him reason to believe though.

That's one thing that's bugged me about this whole saga: only about twenty years are supposed to pass between episodes 3 and 4, and yet the Jedi Order seems to have nearly vanished into myth. They are household names in TPM, even in a backwater like Tattooine. (Watto: "What do you think you are, some kind of Jedi?") Notice how in ANH, Kenobi can wander the streets of Mos Espa without arousing suspicion, or even comment, until he disarms a bar patron.

Anyways, there must have been an extremely effective propaganda campaign in order to purge the Jedi not only from the history books, but from living memory, one of Orwellian proportions. It seems to me that to parade Vader around as one of the supposedly mythical former Jedi would be counter-productive to that agenda, especially to the general public.

Actually, it's not that un-reasonable. For one thing the simple number of Jedi means that far more than 99.9% of the people had never seen a Jedi outside of movies. For most people they would be mostly "mythical" to start with. Once the order gets purged then it's not suprising people stop believing.

As for Obi-wan, notice that his desert hermit robes fit in well enough on Tatooine, why would they think he's anything but an old farmer? (Incidentally, it wasn't until the prequels that all Jedi started dressing like desert hermits, before they usually wore armor or uniforms not terribly disimilar to Vader or Lukes customes).

The question, though, is whether or not Vader is known to exist by the general public, not whether or not it's known that he is strong with the Force. The answer that I come up with is "why not".

And I listed a number.

[Galvatron]

As for the other darkside adepts, he did use them as you suggest. Emperor's Hand(s) any one?

Not to mention the Imperial Inquisitors like Tremayne, Jerec, and Blackhole. Even the Dark Empire sourcebook makes mention of the Emperor ordering his dark Jedi into seclusion.

I can imagine that Vader spent a good deal of his time on Vjun training in the Sith arts, far away from the public eye.

[SCRawl]

Han Solo, for one, also rejected the whole Force thing, though he ought to have been experienced enough to know better.

Perhaps, but nothing in Han's experience would have given him reason to believe though.

Assuming an ANH age of about 33 (I don't know what the official line is), he certainly should have heard of the Jedi before the Dark Times, as Obi-Wan put it. At the very least, it seems to me that he would have met with people in his line of work who were also old enough to know better. Hell, his first mate was one such individual....

That's one thing that's bugged me about this whole saga: only about twenty years are supposed to pass between episodes 3 and 4, and yet the Jedi Order seems to have nearly vanished into myth. They are household names in TPM, even in a backwater like Tattooine. (Watto: "What do you think you are, some kind of Jedi?") Notice how in ANH, Kenobi can wander the streets of Mos Espa without arousing suspicion, or even comment, until he disarms a bar patron.

Anyways, there must have been an extremely effective propaganda campaign in order to purge the Jedi not only from the history books, but from living memory, one of Orwellian proportions. It seems to me that to parade Vader around as one of the supposedly mythical former Jedi would be counter-productive to that agenda, especially to the general public.

Actually, it's not that un-reasonable. For one thing the simple number of Jedi means that far more than 99.9% of the people had never seen a Jedi outside of movies. For most people they would be mostly "mythical" to start with. Once the order gets purged then it's not suprising people stop believing.

Let's try a hypothetical. Say they disband the Navy Seals tomorrow. They're an elite subset of the US military, they (I assume) routinely execute classified operations, and yet they are publicly known, at least as an entity. Do you think that, in this hypothetical situation, twenty years from now we would think they were a myth? I realize that the scales of our situation and that of the GFFA are far, far different, but the principles are the same. Those who were old enough to remember the Jedi should retain their memories into ANH and beyond.

As for Obi-wan, notice that his desert hermit robes fit in well enough on Tatooine, why would they think he's anything but an old farmer? (Incidentally, it wasn't until the prequels that all Jedi started dressing like desert hermits, before they usually wore armor or uniforms not terribly disimilar to Vader or Lukes customes).

This is of course true, though the Jedi "uniform" was still recognizable on sight. (Personally, though I like the look, I think it was a mistake to make Kenobi's desert hermit costume the Jedi uniform, strictly for reasons of logic.)

The question, though, is whether or not Vader is known to exist by the general public, not whether or not it's known that he is strong with the Force. The answer that I come up with is "why not".

And I listed a number.

It seemed to me that you listed a number of reasons why the public (or at least, a large enough subset of them) ought to know that Vader existed, and was a former Jedi. Perhaps I've misunderstood you. In any case, I certainly had no objections to the notion that Vader's existence was far from secret. I do have issues with the notion that everyone knows he's a Force user, given the evidence that the Force has been relegated to the level of superstition.

(In case it isn't clear, I'm no fan of the EU, have had minimal exposure to it, and am willing to neglect it out of hand. That makes me a heretic to some of you, and I'm willing to live with that.)

[Jalinth]

As for the other darkside adepts, he did use them as you suggest. Emperor's Hand(s) any one?

Not to mention the Imperial Inquisitors like Tremayne, Jerec, and Blackhole. Even the Dark Empire sourcebook makes mention of the Emperor ordering his dark Jedi into seclusion.

I can imagine that Vader spent a good deal of his time on Vjun training in the Sith arts, far away from the public eye.

Either that, or Vader was known as the Emperor's attack dog - a sinister, shadowy figure everyone feared, but no one knew very much about. No need for most Imperial servants to know he's Jedi, just that when a "Lord Vader" paid you a visit, take it seriously.

Tarkin would be an exception - he'd know exactly what Vader was given his high rank.

ESB and beyond he comes out more (dealing with Lando and others directly) and might become a public known figure.

I've avoided most of the EU except for Zahn's first trilogy.

[Galvatron]

Perhaps, but nothing in Han's experience would have given him reason to believe though.

Assuming an ANH age of about 33 (I don't know what the official line is), he certainly should have heard of the Jedi before the Dark Times, as Obi-Wan put it. At the very least, it seems to me that he would have met with people in his line of work who were also old enough to know better. Hell, his first mate was one such individual....

Given his background as a shady "fringe" character, Han may have seen enough bullshit in his time to view any such thing with extreme skepticism. After all, his line about "simple tricks" acknowledges that he was aware of the so-called Force and the Jedis' "magical" feats, but he was too cynical as a result of his personal experiences to believe they were anything but mere illusions.

So Han may have been in the minority and not necessarily a reliable indicator of how the majority remembered the Jedi.

(In case it isn't clear, I'm no fan of the EU, have had minimal exposure to it, and am willing to neglect it out of hand. That makes me a heretic to some of you, and I'm willing to live with that.)

You'll get no argument from me on that (and I've had lots of exposure to it). At any rate, I think a great deal of the pro-EU sentiment 'round these parts is a result of years of "versus" debating on ASVS. IOW, they don't necessarily like it, but they feel obligated to defend it because it helps them in their cause.

Me, I don't give a rat's ass about the "versus" debate so I unabashedly criticize the EU's validity at every opportunity.

[PainRack]

As for Obi-wan, notice that his desert hermit robes fit in well enough on Tatooine, why would they think he's anything but an old farmer? (Incidentally, it wasn't until the prequels that all Jedi started dressing like desert hermits, before they usually wore armor or uniforms not terribly disimilar to Vader or Lukes customes).

Indeed, the ROTj novelisation stated that Luke was wearing his Jedi Uniform.

Assuming an ANH age of about 33 (I don't know what the official line is), he certainly should have heard of the Jedi before the Dark Times, as Obi-Wan put it. At the very least, it seems to me that he would have met with people in his line of work who were also old enough to know better. Hell, his first mate was one such individual....

He would have heard of the Jedi, but he would have associated them with the Judicals, not a religious order that have supernatural powers.

Let's try a hypothetical. Say they disband the Navy Seals tomorrow. They're an elite subset of the US military, they (I assume) routinely execute classified operations, and yet they are publicly known, at least as an entity. Do you think that, in this hypothetical situation, twenty years from now we would think they were a myth? I realize that the scales of our situation and that of the GFFA are far, far different, but the principles are the same. Those who were old enough to remember the Jedi should retain their memories into ANH and beyond.

Except that the sheer majority of the people never saw the Jedi, and the many visible feats of the Jedi Order could be easily replicated with technology.

It seemed to me that you listed a number of reasons why the public (or at least, a large enough subset of them) ought to know that Vader existed, and was a former Jedi. Perhaps I've misunderstood you. In any case, I certainly had no objections to the notion that Vader's existence was far from secret. I do have issues with the notion that everyone knows he's a Force user, given the evidence that the Force has been relegated to the level of superstition.

Let's put it this way. Everyone knows that Tom Cruise is a scientologist. Everybody knows that that religion is crap. Translate to Darth Vader.

[Stormbringer]

Assuming an ANH age of about 33 (I don't know what the official line is), he certainly should have heard of the Jedi before the Dark Times, as Obi-Wan put it. At the very least, it seems to me that he would have met with people in his line of work who were also old enough to know better. Hell, his first mate was one such individual....

He had heard of the Jedi but given his life experience as being a con man and seeing other play up other similar religions for their own end he doesn't trust the whole Force shtick. It's as simple as him being a very cynical SoB.

Let's try a hypothetical. Say they disband the Navy Seals tomorrow. They're an elite subset of the US military, they (I assume) routinely execute classified operations, and yet they are publicly known, at least as an entity. Do you think that, in this hypothetical situation, twenty years from now we would think they were a myth? I realize that the scales of our situation and that of the GFFA are far, far different, but the principles are the same. Those who were old enough to remember the Jedi should retain their memories into ANH and beyond.

A nifty analogy except it's got some serious flaws:

1) There are quite simply far less Jedi than there are SEALs. There are only a few tens of thousands of Jedi for millions of planets. So by a rough analogy, there would be one SEAL on the entire planet. Much easier to believe that's a myth huh?

2) Jedi are magic users, not simply highly trained people. That does make a difference. Even Watto was half joking to Qui-Gon after all.

3) It's obvious that people still do believe in Jedi, it's just their legacy has been clouded and obscured by Imperial propoganda. And since the only way people knew about Jedi to begin with it's not as hard to do as you seem to believe.

This is of course true, though the Jedi "uniform" was still recognizable on sight.

Not really. We've got plenty of instances in which is wasn't. And frankly on Tatooine, it's going to be even less recognizalbe since it's the Wacky Desert Hermit Get-up (TM).

(Personally, though I like the look, I think it was a mistake to make Kenobi's desert hermit costume the Jedi uniform, strictly for reasons of logic.)

Yes, it was for a lot of reasons.

It seemed to me that you listed a number of reasons why the public (or at least, a large enough subset of them) ought to know that Vader existed, and was a former Jedi. Perhaps I've misunderstood you. In any case, I certainly had no objections to the notion that Vader's existence was far from secret. I do have issues with the notion that everyone knows he's a Force user, given the evidence that the Force has been relegated to the level of superstition.

Except there's plenty of purely canon evidence that ordinary enough people know what Vader is, a force user. Not all of them buy the notion of magical powers, as is demonstrated by the likes of Motti or Han, but a lot of people buy the notion at least on some level. And Palpatine simply used that in his propoganda to frame the Jedi for all sorts of crimes as Phillip did to the Knight's Templar (a source for the Jedi I might add).

(In case it isn't clear, I'm no fan of the EU, have had minimal exposure to it, and am willing to neglect it out of hand. That makes me a heretic to some of you, and I'm willing to live with that.)

I don't like the EU either. Most of it's shit. But it's there and it counts whether you like or not.

[Crom]

(Personally, though I like the look, I think it was a mistake to make Kenobi's desert hermit costume the Jedi uniform, strictly for reasons of logic.)

Yes, it was for a lot of reasons.

Was Kenobi's costume originally not the Jedi uniform? What reasons did they have for make the hermit robes standard issue for Jedi?

[Lord Revan]

What reasons did they have for make the hermit robes standard issue for Jedi?

I think it's bacause most of the jedi's work was in outer rim worlds (like Tatooine) where such costumes are more common.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Lord Vader had a variety of unofficial and temporary posts prior to the Battle of Yavin, but it was only after that Lord Vader was elevated to the Supreme Commander of the Imperial armed forces. As to who the "official" Supreme Commander was before that, I don't know, perhaps Palpatine himself held the title, but I figure that no figure had official supreme operational command of the Imperial armed forces before Vader.

After Vader's death, Sate Pestage appears to occupied this capacity, at least unofficially. Madame Director of Imperial Intelligence, Ysanne Isard, also appears to.

The next official supreme commander was, of course, GADM Thrawn. After that, Master Skywalker was designated Supreme Commander by the Emperor, and after Palpatine's death and Luke's redemption, Imperial Military Executor Sedriss assumed the position, and then Nist, one of Palpatine's "Dark Jedi."

[Illuminatus Primus]

Was Kenobi's costume originally not the Jedi uniform? What reasons did they have for make the hermit robes standard issue for Jedi?

The gross overgeneralization fallacy. This was lamented by Bob Brown, the renowned OT purist.

[Illuminatus Primus]

China is able to officially claim that the Japanese never ruled Manchuria, and other parts of rather recent history to which there are thousands of living witnesses. Ever read 1984? Ever hear of the scientific and historical revisionism under "dialectical materialism" in the USSR?

Shit, deleting the already semi-mystical abilities of ten thousand individuals in a galaxy of quadrillions in two decades isn't that hard.

[SCRawl]

I have to say, you've all made some good points. I still find the idea that Vader can be known to be a former Jedi, with magical powers is in conflict with the idea that the Emperor took steps to make the Jedi vanish into history. But that's my problem.

China is able to officially claim that the Japanese never ruled Manchuria, and other parts of rather recent history to which there are thousands of living witnesses. Ever read 1984? Ever hear of the scientific and historical revisionism under "dialectical materialism" in the USSR?

Shit, deleting the already semi-mystical abilities of ten thousand individuals in a galaxy of quadrillions in two decades isn't that hard.

As I said earlier, I felt that such a cover-up would have to be of Orwellian proportions, implying that I have indeed read "1984". Really, though, did the great unwashed actually believe all the crap that they were being fed? They accepted it, of course, since there wasn't anything they could do about it, but aside from the few who had their memories "adjusted", they still remembered what they knew to be true.

(I wonder, in the GFFA, are the Jedi discussed in the news, or in the entertainment? Do they make movies, and are some of the characters Jedi? This is getting, admittedly, rather far off topic, but I'm curious.)

I'm really not making a whole lot of sense, so I think it's better that I pick this up another time. It's been a long day, about 17 hours since I rolled out of bed, so I have an excuse.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Even if you grew up to your early teens knowing of the Jedi as a real thing, are you going to argue with all the major news organizations if they launch a real investigation/expose of Jedi fraud and crime? People are programmed to trust their sources. Only intelligent adults or people who had more direct contact with the Order stand a real chance.

[Elheru Aran]

I always viewed Vader as being more of the Emperor's personal thug, bouncer, and all-around muscle. Or rather, that's likely how the Moffs and higher-echelon Imperials viewed him; they knew what he could do, they were aware that he had wide discretionary powers, and they were aware that he was there to ensure that the Emperor's orders were carried out. In other words, as I've said, Vader was Palpatine's muscle..........

and also his public enforcer. Palpatine rarely appeared in public (AFAIK), and thus Vader would've been the most directly visible way for Palpatine to convey his wishes to the Empire.

To illustrate-- picture this scenario: you are a pedestrian on Coruscant (or Kuat, Byss, whatever inhabitated Imperial planet you want). The nearby advertising holoscreens crackle as the Imperial public-broadcast signals override the advertising software, the Imperial seal appears, and then the grim visage of Lord Vader is superimposed...

I can easily imagine that Vader's appearance, at least, was well known to the Imperial public. His reputation is another matter. The higher-ups would've known more concrete stuff, although only the real Imperials would've known the real stuff; there would've been more than enough rumor going around to keep everybody subdued when Vader was around...

[Stofsk]

(I wonder, in the GFFA, are the Jedi discussed in the news, or in the entertainment? Do they make movies, and are some of the characters Jedi? This is getting, admittedly, rather far off topic, but I'm curious.)

The only EU example I can think of was in the "Classic Star Wars" comic strips which were reprinted by Dark Horse in comic book format. In one of the plots a master actor is recruited by Darth Vader to 'take on the role' of Obi-wan Kenobi and thus trick Luke.

That's not really what you're after, but it's sort of similar. Same deal with the HoT Duology, with Flim (an actor/con artist) taking on the role of someone famous (in this case, GADM Thrawn). It does show that actors exist in the SW universe... whether or not there's a TV show "Jedi Beat: Life On The Spaceways" or "Eye on Coruscant: tonight's special, the Jedi Temple!" is something which I don't think can be answered.

[Howedar]

Even if you grew up to your early teens knowing of the Jedi as a real thing, are you going to argue with all the major news organizations if they launch a real investigation/expose of Jedi fraud and crime? People are programmed to trust their sources. Only intelligent adults or people who had more direct contact with the Order stand a real chance.

You could fairly easily accept that the Jedi were not as pure and wonderful as they professed to be, but actually being convinced they never existed is a much bigger step.

[PainRack]

You could fairly easily accept that the Jedi were not as pure and wonderful as they professed to be, but actually being convinced they never existed is a much bigger step.

Not never existed. Han, Tarkin, Motti, all knew that there were Jedi, and there was this religion called the Force.

What they were convinced of, was that the Force, never existed, and the Jedi didn't have "super-powers", or what Han refers to as simple parlour tricks.

[Cao Cao]

Personally I always thought the likes of Motti knew full well about Force powers, but thought them to be old hat and inferior to the technological might of the Empire. After all, the Empire or at least it's foundation exterminated the Jedi (I doubt Vader went around personally executing every single Jedi), so in the people's eyes their power existed but it wasn't THAT great.
As for Han, he probably didn't give a damn.

[JediMaster415]

Let me start by first saying that I am an EU fan for the reason that Han is my hero, Jaina Solo is my favorite SW character and the EU gives me a nice fix until the OT comes out on DVD.

On this topic, I think that the public knew enough about Vader to know that if he was hanging around, it was best to hide and pray he wasn't after you. Anything about what exactly made him dangerous was rumor to the general populace and more concrete, the higher up you got in the military and government.

As for Han firing on Vader on Bespin, Han did come very close to Vader in Ann Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy. Hanging around Luke and the Rebellion could only help reinforce the seriousness of that close encounter with the Dark One. Thus, his first reaction is his most natural: shoot first, ask later and hope you didn't hit someone important.

Well, there's my view on this particular subject.

[Kurgan]

I think this is just more evidence that Lucas originally intended more time to pass between the "time of the prequels" and the original trilogy.

Now he's in the process of "revising" that idea (which helps explain the apparent "youthening" of Anakin's ghost).

Palpatine is very old, Obi-Wan is old, Yoda is old (well, in his own way, heh), Vader is old.

This way the Empire is pretty dang impressive if they can take over everything, build up a huge army that was never there before, and make everybody virtually forget the past in such a short time.

Then again, in the EU they end up fighting the Empire for another 15 years or so after Endor...

[Kuja]

Vader was extremely well-known. In Splinter of the Mind's Eye, for example, Vader frequented parades and had enough of a reputation that a few words to a child from Vader stuck with the guy for his entire life. He was by far the most visible of the Emperor's agents.

I think you are referring to The Courtship of Princess Leia. The boy Vader stopped to talk to ended up in Zsinj's service and suggested he reinforce Dathomir on gut instinct.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Not to drag this back up, but according to the OT ITW, Kenobi would learn the latest news about the Empire and Vader with occasional trips to Mos Eisley.

So seems like learning about Darth Vader is just as easy as keeping up with the news and asking spacers about recent events.