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CaptainChewbacca wrote:Luke kicked ass in Vector Prime and didn't stop till it was over.

Luke was good in Vector Prime, and Dark Tide (rescuing Jacen with a force storm of boulders).

The rest of the series he was a wuss, whining about not to fight the Vong because attacking them leads to the dark side, etc, etc.

In the Unifying Force he finally got the point and slaughtered them like nuts.

Galvatron wrote:Read The Crystal Star.

The only thing worse than that crappy book is the Black Fleet Crisis.

No Praxis. Crystal Star takes the cake. BFC was bad, but *shudders* I've read through Crystal Star.

It's obvsious now how the Jedi should act. The prequels are exactly how Lucas wants them to be. Bad ass and take action.

Cal Wright wrote:No Praxis. Crystal Star takes the cake. BFC was bad, but *shudders* I've read through Crystal Star.

So have I, and, scary as this sounds, Ruins of Dantooine makes The Crystal Star look like A Tale Of Two Cities.

Praxis wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Luke kicked ass in Vector Prime and didn't stop till it was over.

Luke was good in Vector Prime, and Dark Tide (rescuing Jacen with a force storm of boulders).

Also how about Star by Star, Enemy lines doulogy and Destiney's Way where looks flies against the enemy and and goes on covert mission and the like.

no one's tossing out darksaber in the litany of bad books?

Praxis wrote:
Luke was good in Vector Prime, and Dark Tide (rescuing Jacen with a force storm of boulders).

The rest of the series he was a wuss, whining about not to fight the Vong because attacking them leads to the dark side, etc, etc.

In the Unifying Force he finally got the point and slaughtered them like nuts.

Luke letting loose and kicking ass in Unifying Force was one of the highlights of the NJO for me. It was a long time coming.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Actually, Lucas most closely compared the Jedi to US Marshalls.

That was their role in society but in attitude, style, and action they're very obviously based on samurai. They believe in an all-encompassing life force which they can use to augment their senses and perform great physical feats; these skills can only be properly accessed by banishing emotion and extraneous thoughts; they use friggin' swords...

Lucas has cited the famous samurai flick The Hidden Fortress as inspiration for Star Wars.

Where's "Courtship" in this litany of Luke-pussification?!

EVERY DAMN TIME, he tells the witches to "give up", and even RELEASES his hold on one(pulling a Vader. Heh...) when she claims to surrender. And we get preaching. Oh, god, the preaching. "No anger" this, "No violence" that. Left and right. He encourages people not to kill BEFORE A BATTLE!!

Until the end, where Wolverton realizes he's written into a corner and resorts to the almighty power of Force-wanking(resurrected through the Force... Force makes you an ace fighter pilot on a freighter... ugh.). Am I the only one who considers Force-wanking to be the much worse equivilant of techno-babble Deus-exing in the SW universe?

That's BESIDES Wolverton not paying attention to continuity and deciding Luke can translate any language by "power of the Force". "Dark Force Rising", Wolvie. READ IT!!

And yet, it ISN'T all putrid crap. Just anything containing Luke in action...

Enforcer Talen wrote:no one's tossing out darksaber in the litany of bad books?

Darksaber was bad, but it did have a few good parts.

Crystal Star and the Black Fleet Crisis didn't have one.

Plus the idiot who wrote the Black Fleet Crisis thinks turbolasers are laser beams at light speed, and that star wars uses nuclear fusion.

Faqa wrote:Where's "Courtship" in this litany of Luke-pussification?!

EVERY DAMN TIME, he tells the witches to "give up", and even RELEASES his hold on one(pulling a Vader. Heh...) when she claims to surrender. And we get preaching. Oh, god, the preaching. "No anger" this, "No violence" that. Left and right. He encourages people not to kill BEFORE A BATTLE!!

Dang, I was just reminded of Sisko's preaching in DS9 after battles...

You know, Luke and Sisko would get along well. Luke would preach before the battle, "Beware the darkside! Don't give in to anger and slaughter people, or you may become evil! Bwahahaha!" and Sisko afterward, "Look at these casualty lists...so many people died today...BooHoo...I think I'm gonna be depressed and whine to you all..."

The New Rebellion is still at the top of the shitheap as far as I'm concerned.

Kuja wrote:The New Rebellion is still at the top of the shitheap as far as I'm concerned.

That has my vote, with Planet of Twilight in a close second. As for Courtship, I always read that when I'm feeling sick, and it cheers me up.

There were many parts of Darksaber that I enjoyed, but also so many that I thought were very poor. Darksaber really isn't so much a terrible book as it is a misguided one that doesn't live up to the full possible potential that it could have.

It's a book that has a really interesting idea that could have been great, but KJA made too many poor and subpar decisions with it that it ended up sounding like a bad cartoonish comic book.

The parts with Luke and Calista were somewhat lame, but there was so much more that went wrong in that book, which partially makes me a little sad...

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:There were many parts of Darksaber that I enjoyed, but also so many that I thought were very poor. Darksaber really isn't so much a terrible book as it is a misguided one that doesn't live up to the full possible potential that it could have.

It's a book that has a really interesting idea that could have been great, but KJA made too many poor and subpar decisions with it that it ended up sounding like a bad cartoonish comic book.

The parts with Luke and Calista were somewhat lame, but there was so much more that went wrong in that book, which partially makes me a little sad...

Here's the bad: They brought back Madine just to kill him!

It was more how he was killed than anything else, but that didn't bother me as much as all the silly little decisions that KJA made throughout the book, such as all the things he has go wrong during the planning and construction of Darksaber. It just made it rediculous to me.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Actually, Lucas most closely compared the Jedi to US Marshalls.

That was their role in society but in attitude, style, and action they're very obviously based on samurai. They believe in an all-encompassing life force which they can use to augment their senses and perform great physical feats; these skills can only be properly accessed by banishing emotion and extraneous thoughts; they use friggin' swords...

Lucas has cited the famous samurai flick The Hidden Fortress as inspiration for Star Wars.

Ninja make more sense, actually.

The Jedi are similar to samurai in AOTC, but the same can still be said of ninja. And it's a stronger case for ninja rather than samurai. Ninja believe in ki as well and make use of it. Like the Samurai they were skilled in many different talents, and use swords. Ninja also didn't banish their emotions, but considered a balance being integral to mastering the force. Unlike the samurai the ninja weren't nobles nor were they well regarded by everyone (didn't stop them from using their services, however). Of course, there's more to it than that - the ninja weren't used just as assassins but also as commandos, security specialists, spies and secret police, and advisors.

That last point is important: in TPM Qui-gon says "I can only protect you, I cannot fight a war for you." Most of the OT is full of Jedi sneaking around (Obi-wan on the DS, sabotaging it's tractor beams etc, Luke's intricate and subtle plan to get people infiltrated into Jabba's palace), Yoda is living in the remotest region of the galaxy using secrecy as a protection from enemies - only Obi-wan knew where he was, and only he could pass that information on to Luke (this is INTEGRAL ninja doctrine, where the genin - or 'grunt man' - which is Luke, has no idea who the Grandmaster is and is only aware of him through the presence of the 'middle man' - I forget the rank names, I only remember 'genin'); finally the Jedi aren't chosen based on birth (a la nobles like Samurai) but on their ability. The closest we get to a Jedi 'dynasty' is the Skywalkers/Solos, and maybe the Horns. And they're the only ones we know about (IIRC). This isn't too surprising, as ninja had families as well. But the important distinction between a ninja and a samurai is the latter was a member of the nobility, while ninja were not.

GL may have based the Jedi on the samurai, but in practice they're more alike to the ninja in my opinion.

Except that ninja were pretty much exclusively spies and assassins...

Then again why the distinction since Ninja and Samurai were one and the same...just what we consider Ninja were a couple of clans who took up a more clandestine sake of fighting.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Except that ninja were pretty much exclusively spies and assassins...

They were more than that.

Ghost Rider wrote:Then again why the distinction since Ninja and Samurai were one and the same...just what we consider Ninja were a couple of clans who took up a more clandestine sake of fighting.

True... except for my point about nobility - the samurai were considered nobles while the ninja weren't. I make the distinction because the Jedi act very sneakily the great majority of the time: Ben on the DS, Luke's plan at Jabba's palace, the Jedi infiltrating the arena in AOTC (regardless of what followed afterwards... ), Mace Windu sneaking up to Dooku and Jango et al and in a position to decapitate the separatist movement in a flurry of violence (but he didn't... yes, he's Mr Badass... ), Mace Windu later leading a group of special COMMANDO units during the battle; Qui-gon had his priority straight - go straight to the command centre and decapitate the head - if it weren't for the droidekas... oh, the Jedi act like 'secret police' or 'secret service' in TPM and AOTC, both with their protection of Padme and their conduct with criminals like Zam Weesal.

But no Jedi appears to be recruited based on class. Anakin was a slave and Obi-wan trained him simply because he has talent. Same deal with Luke, a mere farm boy - trained because Obi-wan saw talent. They don't appear to be nobles, which is a clear trait the Samurai possess. Instead they cloister themselves away from the masses with secrecy and a good deal of misinformation. Simply saying the word 'Jedi' inspires confidence or fear. The Neimodians shitted themselves when they were told Qui-gon was a Jedi. Leia seeks out Obi-wan because she thought he could help and knew who he was thanks to her 'father'.

Faqa wrote:Where's "Courtship" in this litany of Luke-pussification?!

He was a bit too preachy in that. As you point out, a couple of times he went too far in it. But frankly, it's not terribly out of line with the movies and the more rational EU portrayls. Luke's trying not to kill, maim, and generally give into solving everything with violence. That's in line with what we see out of Yoda in the movies after all. And given the context of an extremely violent society in which the best of them embraced a violent way of life it made sense enough.

The ressurection (which was just too much of deus-ex in general) the portrayal of Luke as a powerful Jedi wasn't unreasonable. After all, the Force does make Luke an incredible pilot in Star Wars. So that's not at all unbelievable and the Falcon is a hot-rod of a courier ship anyway.

The continuity flub was just that.

He was a bit too preachy in that. As you point out, a couple of times he went too far in it. But frankly, it's not terribly out of line with the movies and the more rational EU portrayls. Luke's trying not to kill, maim, and generally give into solving everything with violence. That's in line with what we see out of Yoda in the movies after all. And given the context of an extremely violent society in which the best of them embraced a violent way of life it made sense enough.

The ressurection (which was just too much of deus-ex in general) the portrayal of Luke as a powerful Jedi wasn't unreasonable. After all, the Force does make Luke an incredible pilot in Star Wars. So that's not at all unbelievable and the Falcon is a hot-rod of a courier ship anyway.

"Too preachy" is a bit of an understatement.

"You feel the pull too, the bloodlust, the call of the hunt", Luke said, pulling off his flight suit. Beneath it, he was dressed in flowing robes the red color of desert sandstone. "That's the Dark Side of the Force whispering to you, calling to you"

"So, tell me", Luke said, "how did your brother die?" "Shot", Isolder said, "Harravan shot him in the head with a blaster".

"I see", Luke said. "You must forgive him. Your anger burns in you, a black spot on your heart. You must forgive him and serve the Light side of the Force"

"When you remain calm, when you feel at peace, when you show mercy and justice to those who make themselves your enemies, then you will know that you are using the Force correctly. But if you surrender to hate, or despair, or greed, then you give in to the dark side and it will dominate your destiny, take control of you"

Ugh. That's not just "too preachy". that's "Pat Buchanean on steroids" preachy!

I would really hate to be accused wanking off to Zahn's trilogy, but he does it RIGHT. Luke is discplined, controlled, powerful and resourseful. At the same time, he knows how and when to kill, he knows he's got a sufficiently long way to go before he can dictate or teach ANYONE, and he's NOT a one-man army! More like the way a knight is supposed to be(the only decision he made I disagreed with was not finishing off C'baoth in DFR, but he's forgiven for one lapse).

Further, you must have forgotten the following ANH line:

"You bet I could, I'm not such a bad pilot myself".

Waaaaaaay before he started tapping into the Force. He's a good pilot, and the Force makes him better, but c'mon, "Courtship"'s portrayal was just plain annoying.

Ugh. That's not just "too preachy". that's "Pat Buchanean on steroids" preachy!

Again considering even the good gals of it were verging on the Dark side I'd say it's not too preachy. After all, a Jedi might be required to fight but when they start enjoying then there's a problem.

And well all know where desire for revenge leads... *cue Imperial March*

I would really hate to be accused wanking off to Zahn's trilogy, but he does it RIGHT. Luke is discplined, controlled, powerful and resourseful. At the same time, he knows how and when to kill, he knows he's got a sufficiently long way to go before he can dictate or teach ANYONE, and he's NOT a one-man army! More like the way a knight is supposed to be(the only decision he made I disagreed with was not finishing off C'baoth in DFR, but he's forgiven for one lapse).

I agree that Zahn did a far better portrayl than just about anyone else. However I disagree with your notion that a Jedi should kill lightly.

Further, you must have forgotten the following ANH line:

"You bet I could, I'm not such a bad pilot myself".

Waaaaaaay before he started tapping into the Force. He's a good pilot, and the Force makes him better, but c'mon, "Courtship"'s portrayal was just plain annoying.

He made a shot that even the computers couldn't make all using the Force for fuck's sake! It made Anakin a champion pod-racer at nine! I don't think the piloting scene is at all over the top all things considered.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:What's the "80ish EU book"?

IM sorry i havent gotten on this post, i can only get on on weekends. For those of you who think im basing it on one book im not, the 80's book quote was to show that i have read that many books and is basing my opinion on those books. The Thernbee is coaxed in The New Rebellion, he coaxes a whole lot of creatures like the Yezzum or Yuzzem (2 species diffrent types i cant tell them apart by name) in Splinter of the Minds Eye. People put that book down because of its simplicity but may i remind you that it was the intended sequel and TV movie if A New Hope failed in the box office. I dont remember which series it was but there was one where Luke "dies" and he needs to coax mother nature to give him streagth. Crystal Star was retarded, much to Treky and featured the only other alien from a nother dimension in Star Wars next to the Otherspace books.

The EU depicts Luke as a lover of animals and befriends them through the force. I find that repetitive and very un Star Wars iee. The EU never keeps it simple for Luke like it does in the Prequel books. When Obi-wan and Anakin had to "CALM" animals only in Rouge Planet and The Approching storm. IN AOTC Anakin seems to only calm them, not befriend them and become cozy with the Reek.

I Like the EU mainly for its extended tales of Star Wars. I try to forget the mistakes of the author and concentrate on the fights and political strife.

Im not a Treky but once Rodenberry died and others took over Star Trek still had a fanbase and most of them pushed away the mistakes made for the newer episodes just like Star Wars fans should forget the authors mistakes and remember that is a continuation of George Lucas' stories.

I'm surprised no ones mentioned Children of the Jedi as a bad book....