StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Ah hell, I'm gonna split this thread to PST.

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:I can count the number of Voyager episodes I've seen on two hands.

Ah, so you do have some taste

More luck then anything.

I can't believe this got started because of a goofy little photoshop job.

Come on folks, loosen the heck up and laugh, enjoy yourselves from time to time. This is getting annoying.

Kuja wrote:I can't believe this got started because of a goofy little photoshop job.

Well, this is a board where debating topics of wide varieties is the primary purpose for coming here...

Come on folks, loosen the heck up and laugh, enjoy yourselves from time to time. This is getting annoying.

The picture was funny, and we're not taking it seriously.

However, the Trek hull strength debate is not new, and is obviously still not entirely resolved. Your thread merely inevitably brought up the subject again (the thread title alone was sufficient), and naturally lines got drawn, arguements were formed, evidence was compiled, and now it's war!

Robert Walper wrote:Species 8472's ability to tear through hull plating and SIF fields is an indication of their enormous strength and durability, not weakness of Federation hulls.

No, that would indicate extreme weakness in the Federation hull. It's extremely doubt that a spindly bug monster in zero gravity could do much of anything to much more claw at the surface of a metal plate. IIRC, it's arms don't have a much greater crosssection than a human arms, and since it's organic it can't be all that vastly stronger.

Really, the ball is in your court to demonstrate that it's superstrengh on the part of the Bug Eyed Monster, not weakness in the hull. Really, a critter with millions of times the strength of a man despite similar arm size, a spindlier body, organic composition, the fact that the BEM was wounded at the time AND working without gravity as an anchor is a far more outrageous claim than really shitty materials on the part of the hull.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:Species 8472's ability to tear through hull plating and SIF fields is an indication of their enormous strength and durability, not weakness of Federation hulls.

No, that would indicate extreme weakness in the Federation hull. It's extremely doubt that a spindly bug monster in zero gravity could do much of anything to much more claw at the surface of a metal plate. IIRC, it's arms don't have a much greater crosssection than a human arms, and since it's organic it can't be all that vastly stronger.

Really, the ball is in your court to demonstrate that it's superstrengh on the part of the Bug Eyed Monster, not weakness in the hull. Really, a critter with millions of times the strength of a man despite similar arm size, a spindlier body, organic composition, the fact that the BEM was wounded at the time AND working without gravity as an anchor is a far more outrageous claim than really shitty materials on the part of the hull.

Except we have canon examples said hull can take an extremely impressive pounding and remain intact. But I leave the ball in Alyeska's court on that note, as he is far more versed on that specific issue than I am. I merely happen to agree with him.

Well here is an important question. Did the bug punch through the outer hull? Every example I give on hull strength can be written off as the outer hull and the skeleton structure. The interior bulkheads are never as strong as the skeleton.

Alyeska wrote:Well here is an important question. Did the bug punch through the outer hull?

Yes. We see the Species 8474 individual walking on Voyager outer hull. Seconds later, the ship rocks, and Tuvok reports there is a hull breach and explosive decompression on deck #whatever. He reports, IIRC, a total of two or three such breaches, apparently as the 8472 punched its way through a couple of layers of hull.

Every example I give on hull strength can be written off as the outer hull and the skeleton structure. The interior bulkheads are never as strong as the skeleton.

Well, the Species 8472 got inside of Voyager, and it didn't use an airlock.

Well then we are faced with two very unatractive situations. From the Quantum Slipstream episode where Voyager makes a run for home we can clearly see Voyager sustain heavy kinetic damage from an uncontroled crash landing into a planet and only the very bottom deck suffered structural damage. One nacelle was also damaged when it skimmed over a mountain peak pushing through the ice. The Generations crash also gives us an example of very strong hulls.

This means either S8472 are insanely strong, or for some reason Trek hulls are selective strong. Neither are very good answers.

Robert Walper wrote:Except we have canon examples said hull can take an extremely impressive pounding and remain intact. But I leave the ball in Alyeska's court on that note, as he is far more versed on that specific issue than I am. I merely happen to agree with him.

That's bad logic and a bad attempt at dodging the issue. You've still got to demonstrate that the S8472 in question, despite everything working against it, is really millions of times stronger than a man. After all, you were the one who made that claim in first place, not Alyeska, which means that you have to put up or shut up, not Alyeska.

Now either demonstrate that S8472s really are that strong or concede that you are wrong and that Federation hulls are that weak as they can be ripped open by small BEMs.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:Except we have canon examples said hull can take an extremely impressive pounding and remain intact. But I leave the ball in Alyeska's court on that note, as he is far more versed on that specific issue than I am. I merely happen to agree with him.

That's bad logic and a bad attempt at dodging the issue. You've still got to demonstrate that the S8472 in question, despite everything working against it, is really millions of times stronger than a man. After all, you were the one who made that claim in first place, not Alyeska, which means that you have to put up or shut up, not Alyeska.

Now either demonstrate that S8472s really are that strong or concede that you are wrong and that Federation hulls are that weak as they can be ripped open by small BEMs.

Stop trolling Gil. Robert can provide more sources on hull strength then you can. Your argument outright tosses out an example in favor of your example. Thats not smart debating.

Alyeska wrote:This means either S8472 are insanely strong, or for some reason Trek hulls are selective strong. Neither are very good answers.

It can't be the former, something can't punch or strike with any force at all in zero gravity since it would just fly off in the opposite direction when it threw the blow. The fact that it was walking on the hull at all indicates that it was able to dig into the hull with it's feet, meaning that the hull was so pathetically weak that it couldn't even resist a toe lock from our Bug Eyed Monster.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Alyeska wrote:This means either S8472 are insanely strong, or for some reason Trek hulls are selective strong. Neither are very good answers.

It can't be the former, something can't punch or strike with any force at all in zero gravity since it would just fly off in the opposite direction when it threw the blow. The fact that it was walking on the hull at all indicates that it was able to dig into the hull with it's feet, meaning that the hull was so pathetically weak that it couldn't even resist a toe lock from our Bug Eyed Monster.

Never occured to you it might be holding on the hull through other means? Say magnitism. Hell, today there are people who are magnetic. I saw a guy put a bloody iron on his chest and it didn't fall. Also did you see any damage on the hull?

Generations, Voyager, Delta Flyer, and even a Jem Hadar bug prove that Trek ships tend to have rather impressive hull resistance when slamming into a planet.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:Except we have canon examples said hull can take an extremely impressive pounding and remain intact. But I leave the ball in Alyeska's court on that note, as he is far more versed on that specific issue than I am. I merely happen to agree with him.

That's bad logic and a bad attempt at dodging the issue. You've still got to demonstrate that the S8472 in question, despite everything working against it, is really millions of times stronger than a man. After all, you were the one who made that claim in first place, not Alyeska, which means that you have to put up or shut up, not Alyeska.

Now either demonstrate that S8472s really are that strong or concede that you are wrong and that Federation hulls are that weak as they can be ripped open by small BEMs.

Species 8472 member physically punches through Voyager hull (ref STVOY "Prey").

Voyager's hull withstood extended exposure to meteorite impacts because their deflector dish was offline (ref STVOY "Year of Hell Part 2")

Voyager's hull strength, not reinforced by SIF, maintained intregity when slamming into a ice planet's surface at a high velocity during a crash(ref STVOY "Timeless")

Saucer section of a Galaxy Class Starship maintains integrity when slamming into the solid surface of a planet after free fall throught the planet's atmosphere (ref ST "Generations")

The Delta Flyer's hull, after losing shields, can withstand the water pressure at a depth of 600 kilometers (ref STVOY "Thirty Days")

There's also apparently an example of the Delta Flyer's hull maintaining integrity after crashing through a kilometer of solid rock, although I don't recall this myself and therefore reference an episode name.

Alyeska mentioned a Dominion bug fighter craft as well, ut I leave that example to him. I never watched much of DS9...

Alyeska wrote:Stop trolling Gil. Robert can provide more sources on hull strength then you can. Your argument outright tosses out an example in favor of your example. Thats not smart debating.

I'm not trolling, I'm forcing him to support his retarded claim with actual evidence. Conversely, you're trying to throw out my example with yours. So until you demonstrate that S8472s are millions of times stronger than a man, despite being wounded, spindly, organic AND in zero gravity, we have absolutely no choice but to conclude that Federation hulls really are that weak.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Stop trolling Gil. Robert can provide more sources on hull strength then you can. Your argument outright tosses out an example in favor of your example. Thats not smart debating.

I'm not trolling, I'm forcing him to support his retarded claim with actual evidence. Conversely, you're trying to throw out my example with yours. So until you demonstrate that S8472s are millions of times stronger than a man, despite being wounded, spindly, organic AND in zero gravity, we have absolutely no choice but to conclude that Federation hulls really are that weak.

Might want to reread what I said. I took the evidence we had and pointed out that in order to avoid throwing out either example we had two unappealing answers.

Furthermore, listen to what your saying. You are arguing that Federation hulls are incredibly weak. This is in gross contradiction with MULTIPLE examples. I can provide you the exact details on every single one if your interested. Therefor we can NOT conclude that Federation hulls really are that weak.

Quick reference checking on my part determined I erred on the Delta Flyer example. The Delta Flyer in fact buried itself under three kilometers of rock. It was attempting to outrun an ion storm travelling at a speed of 33,000 kilometers an hour and crashed into a planetoid. Voyager had to initiate digging operations to retrieve the crew and shuttle. (ref STVOY "Once Upon a Time").

Alyeska wrote:Well then we are faced with two very unatractive situations. From the Quantum Slipstream episode where Voyager makes a run for home we can clearly see Voyager sustain heavy kinetic damage from an uncontroled crash landing into a planet and only the very bottom deck suffered structural damage. One nacelle was also damaged when it skimmed over a mountain peak pushing through the ice. The Generations crash also gives us an example of very strong hulls.

This means either S8472 are insanely strong, or for some reason Trek hulls are selective strong. Neither are very good answers.

I'd suggest the "insanely strong S8472" comes across as the most "reasonable" conclusion. Their bioships are made of the same genetic material, and they can shrug off kiloton (lower limit yield according to SDN) warheads.

Robert Walper wrote:I'd suggest the "insanely strong S8472" comes across as the most "reasonable" conclusion.

I wouldn't. In "Prey", the S8472 bug went hande to hand with a Hirogen, and didn't squash him into paste, for those that believe it must be "insanely strong" to breach Voyager's hull.

And we know in turn, that Hirogen are not "insanely strong", as the crew fought with them on numerous occasions hand to hand.

In TNG's "A Mattetr of Honor", a strange organism was eating away at the E-D's hull.

In Generations, I did NOT see the saucer section rip through "mountains".

In VOY's "Timeless", Voyager was hardly intact. most of the lower decks collapsed on themselves, as Chakotay and Kim find out.

I can't recall the episode, but one Voyager ep featured an enemy ship using some kind of claw to latch on to Voyager's hull.

yeah, the most I saw it do was a little clear cutting.....

The Yosemite Bear wrote:yeah, the most I saw it do was a little clear cutting.....

It plowed into a hillside once, to memory, but judging from what it kicked up, that was mostly soil.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

The Yosemite Bear wrote:yeah, the most I saw it do was a little clear cutting.....

It plowed into a hillside once, to memory, but judging from what it kicked up, that was mostly soil.

as usual making moutains out of light hills....

This is also the universe were several dozen Cardassian warships couldn't stay in a nebula for more than a few dozen hours due to particle flux chewing the shit out of their hulls in "Chain of Command". Nebulas are closer to vacuum than we can currently create in a labratory, yet it was destroying StarTrek hulls and damaging their scopes so they couldn't see.

The Yosemite Bear wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:

The Yosemite Bear wrote:yeah, the most I saw it do was a little clear cutting.....

It plowed into a hillside once, to memory, but judging from what it kicked up, that was mostly soil.

as usual making moutains out of light hills....

If you examine the speed at which the ship hit and the obstacles in its way, you see that the shi took some impressive KE. Infact the Saucer struck something that caused it to rebound up somewhat. Yet the section that imediately struck and would cause such a rebound was not visibly damaged.

In the Voyager episode where it crash landed he very bottom decks crushed and that was all. Even then he main structure of the ship remained intact and even survived bein incased in a glacier. This is far more KE then you are atributing to S8472. In other words Gil, your claim that S8472 is weak and Federation hulls are weak is inherently flawed.

Robert Walper wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote: Besides, Federation hulls can be ripped open by angry bugged eyed monsters in zero gravity (a S8472 did it and in zero gravity, there is very little leverage). They just aren't that strong.

Perhaps more objective examples, like the one's Alyeska has submitted, are far more reliable sources to gauge Federation hull strength.

Species 8472's ability to tear through hull plating and SIF fields is an indication of their enormous strength and durability, not weakness of Federation hulls.

As biological materials have set upper limits determined by their chemical composition, no it shows the hull is shit instead.