GL: Vader = Pathetic

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-09-22 10:42pm

I always go the impression that Vader was humouring Tarkin by letting Motti go. Vader had made his point and Motti was too inconsiquential for Vader to fear him as an enemy after humiliating him. Vader and Tarkin also seem to have a history, which would also explain Leia's comment. Perhaps they had a "good cop, bad cop" set up with Vader as the overt threat, Tarkin as the voice of reason.

Vader seems content to let Tarkin run the DS. It is his baby, after all. Vader seems to be there to make sure everything runs smoothlly: recover the plans, find the rebel base, destroy it, and keep the DS under Palpatine's control.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-23 10:06am

GL in the ROTJ commentary says that Palpatine wants Luke to replace Vader because ever since his accident, Vader can no longer be as powerful as he could be because he is mostly machine now. Which of course raises the issue, does that mean that a Jedi who has cybernetic implants or limbs becomes less powerful than when he was whole? It also raises the issue, that if Vader could not reach his full potential why didn't Palpy chuck him during the Purge and get himself a nice whole Jedi, or train some other force sensitive from scratch as he did with Maul? Or does it point to something more sinister that in Ep. III perhaps the Emperor was fairly certain or knew that Anakin had children and was just biding his time for the child to grow.

Kind of also gives you a clue to how powerful Anakin could have been if not for the accident if Vader is considered damaged goods.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-23 10:14am

Stravo wrote:GL in the ROTJ commentary says that Palpatine wants Luke to replace Vader because ever since his accident, Vader can no longer be as powerful as he could be because he is mostly machine now. Which of course raises the issue, does that mean that a Jedi who has cybernetic implants or limbs becomes less powerful than when he was whole? It also raises the issue, that if Vader could not reach his full potential why didn't Palpy chuck him during the Purge and get himself a nice whole Jedi, or train some other force sensitive from scratch as he did with Maul? Or does it point to something more sinister that in Ep. III perhaps the Emperor was fairly certain or knew that Anakin had children and was just biding his time for the child to grow.

Kind of also gives you a clue to how powerful Anakin could have been if not for the accident if Vader is considered damaged goods.

Also with the whole cybernetic implants...it could be the whole extent. In the way that Vader needed a certain level of maintence, but given Lucas' propensity to his ideas...I'm leaning more toward that Lucas believes that the Machine is directly hindering Vader.

A reason of not chucking Vader is he may seriously be just that powerful even as Anakin Lite. Thus even if the Emperor got a new whole Apprentice, it wouldn't be as good or have as much potential.

Also the new ESB dialogue has some interesting hints of EP III....so we'll see how Lucas puts that into play.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-23 10:46am

Stravo wrote:GL in the ROTJ commentary says that Palpatine wants Luke to replace Vader because ever since his accident, Vader can no longer be as powerful as he could be because he is mostly machine now. Which of course raises the issue, does that mean that a Jedi who has cybernetic implants or limbs becomes less powerful than when he was whole?

Probably. After all, the Force is about a Jedi's connection to life. A cybernetic is not 'life', and thus would reduce the 'surface area' where he can have contact with the Force.

It also raises the issue, that if Vader could not reach his full potential why didn't Palpy chuck him during the Purge and get himself a nice whole Jedi, or train some other force sensitive from scratch as he did with Maul?

Probably not so sinister. Remember that Anakin level Force talent don't come very often. Even 1/4th of Vader could easily be worth a whole of everyone else.

I just read DE and DEII's audiotape transcripts. The inferior quality of Palpatine's other Dark Jedi has to be read to be believed. From the transcript, it sounded like Palpatine had to stuff Force power into the ones that came later to make them worth a damn as Dark Jedi.

Which makes sense. The Jedi are apparently the largest group of Force users, and would presumably have the vast majority of elites Force users. And the Emperor killed them. What does he have left? The second rate stuff.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-09-23 10:53am

But why should Palpatine try to get a more powerful potential contender, if Vader does just fine (especially since the Jedi are whipped out)?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-09-23 10:57am

A cybernetic is not 'life', and thus would reduce the 'surface area' where he can have contact with the Force.

Which brings up the interesting case of General Grievous. If he is indeed a Force-user being picked up and used by the Sith, he must be very "weak" in the Force, being even more machine than Vader. (Vader had head and torso, Grievous only has parts of his biological head still intact.)

But why should Palpatine try to get a more powerful potential contender, if Vader does just fine

Because he´s getting old. Luke is the new shit, get it?

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-09-23 11:04am

Life creates the force- being more machine than man doens't mean your ability to manipulat it must diminish.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-23 11:06am

Vympel wrote:Life creates the force- being more machine than man doens't mean your ability to manipulat it must diminish.

But how do we then justify GL's statement that now that Vader was more machine than man his ability to use the force has been diminished and he will never be able to achieve his potential? I think that seems to indicate that Lucas is going in the direction that cybernetics diminsh your ability to make the force flow through you.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-09-23 11:11am

Stravo wrote:But how do we then justify GL's statement that now that Vader was more machine than man his ability to use the force has been diminished and he will never be able to achieve his potential? I think that seems to indicate that Lucas is going in the direction that cybernetics diminsh your ability to make the force flow through you.

Oh, it's commentary- didn't notice, sorry.

Brings up the question whether commentary, even from the creator, counts as "canon" though, as opposed to out of universe speculation.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-23 11:15am

I don't think we can just pick and choose what we like from the creator. Most people here would do a jig of joy if GL came out and just said, "The EU is a continuation of my story and should be seen as on a par with my movies." But if he says somethign in commentary suddenly "You know, thats just a director commenting on his film, it should hardly be considered canon."

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-23 11:24am

Vympel wrote:Life creates the force- being more machine than man doens't mean your ability to manipulat it must diminish.

Life creates the Force, but it is your biological and astral parts that access it. Your biologics are not the only thing - in some esoteric EU, it seems that some people have been able to adapt Ssi-Ruuk enteching tech to transfer their souls into a robot and maintain Force sensitivity. But it just can't possibly be good for your study of the Life Force to have lost 3/4ths of your body. There is probably a reason why Palpatine didn't just let himself be a big, not-so-luminous glob of Dark Side energy, instead continually using his Clone gambit.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-09-23 11:26am

VT-16 wrote:
But why should Palpatine try to get a more powerful potential contender, if Vader does just fine
Because he´s getting old. Luke is the new shit, get it?

That is not the point.

I would understand, if Palpatine wants to get rid of Vader, because he has become to powerful or experienced to keep safely around, but not because he is to old (he is what, 40? 45?) or to weak.

Luke on the other side would need a lot of training and, once fully trained, would be more dangerous than Vader in the end, if that part about being machine and not in tune with the force would be true.

Hmmm, given our knowledge of the EU, why didn´t Palpatine clone Vader (not as an adult) and raised the child by himself? Or did Vader with Luke for that matter.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-09-23 11:27am

Stravo wrote:I don't think we can just pick and choose what we like from the creator. Most people here would do a jig of joy if GL came out and just said, "The EU is a continuation of my story and should be seen as on a par with my movies."

No we wouldn't. That would be a clarion call to every EU supremacist fuckwit who thinks that the EU is just as valid as the films. But I know what you're saying- but the analogy is still false- one is how the items *within* his universe relate to each other, the other isn't.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-23 11:31am

What would be the difference between these two creators making comments on their films:

Roddenberry: "Photon torpedoes have the explosive force of about 60 megatons."

GL: "People with cybernetic implants have problems using the force because it does not flow as easily through them as they would through someone who does not."

Would Trekkies be allowed to use Roddenberry's quote in vs. debates? If we argue that they could not, why? And if they could why then could we not look at GL's statement as fact?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-09-23 11:44am

On the canon-issue:

Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon.

That is not the point.

I would understand, if Palpatine wants to get rid of Vader, because he has become too powerful or experienced to keep safely around, but not because he is to old (he is what, 40? 45?) or to weak.

Actually, that is the point. Vader´s past his prime, he´s good, but if Palpatine can get someone better, he will. Enter Luke.

The fact that Luke overwhelmed his father at the end only strenghtened Palpatine´s view of him as more powerful than Vader.
But you´re probably right about "Vader too powerful and experienced to keep around". Since it´s in the Sith´s nature to double-cross each other when they become more than two, Palpatine seized the golden opportunity to get a younger, stronger (yet less experienced) apprentice that he could mold and form into a new Sith Lord.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-23 01:13pm

Stravo wrote:Roddenberry: "Photon torpedoes have the explosive force of about 60 megatons."

<snip>

Would Trekkies be allowed to use Roddenberry's quote in vs. debates? If we argue that they could not, why? And if they could why then could we not look at GL's statement as fact?

Because on-screen visuals say otherwise? *Shrug* And if they didn't the Trekkies wouldn't be using it. We would.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2004-09-23 01:31pm

Didn't Yoda say not to judge a Jedi by their size? He, the most powerful of them, was a tiny midget but that hardly reduced his force abilities any. I don't see how reducing body mass would reduce force sensitivity - is dieting banned by the Jedi? More likely the mechanics themselves on Vader was an obstruction.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-09-23 01:46pm

VT-16 wrote:
A cybernetic is not 'life', and thus would reduce the 'surface area' where he can have contact with the Force.
Which brings up the interesting case of General Grievous. If he is indeed a Force-user being picked up and used by the Sith, he must be very "weak" in the Force, being even more machine than Vader. (Vader had head and torso, Grievous only has parts of his biological head still intact.)

at least SW.com seems say that Gen Grevious is a whole creature in a custom build droid body. Vaders body on other hand is/was cut&paste version of Anakin Skywalkers body and mechanical replacements.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-09-23 02:05pm

at least SW.com seems say that Gen Grevious is a whole creature in a custom build droid body

Wow, he must be really tiny then?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-09-23 02:13pm

VT-16 wrote:
at least SW.com seems say that Gen Grevious is a whole creature in a custom build droid body
Wow, he must be really tiny then?

Really since also said to be non-humanoid, so the (near)humanoid droid body could have build hide his true bodys shape and size.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-09-23 02:16pm

I thought Vader's decline in force abilities from his days as Anakin had more to do with him being barely alive and needing assistance to stay that way. It isn't so much that he has robotic replacement parts it's that he was wounded so gravely that some of those are actually keeping him alive.

I think it was in Shadows of the Empire where Vader could focus his force abilites to briefly heal himself. Maybe Vader has to use some of his power over the force just to assist the machines in keeping himself alive?

Someone who's that close to being dead isn't going to be as powerful as a perfectly healthy version of themself.

It's not contradictory to what Lucas says but it is an interpretation.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-09-23 06:58pm

That's moronic. So if you're taller and heavier you'll have a deeper connection with the Force? If you're a Hutt Jedi or some other larger species you're stronger than humans in the Force?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-09-23 06:59pm

Stravo wrote:I don't think we can just pick and choose what we like from the creator. Most people here would do a jig of joy if GL came out and just said, "The EU is a continuation of my story and should be seen as on a par with my movies." But if he says somethign in commentary suddenly "You know, thats just a director commenting on his film, it should hardly be considered canon."

No Stravo, it has to do with the fact that under SoD, George Lucas does not exist and those opinions of his that are not written into the film, are irrelevent.

This is especially relevent to GL's commentary and rational analysis because he contradicts himself and claims that's how it always was all the time.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:There is probably a reason why Palpatine didn't just let himself be a big, not-so-luminous glob of Dark Side energy, instead continually using his Clone gambit.

Its because he couldn't do it; not having a host body would cause his spirit to diffuse into the madness of the Dark Side.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-09-23 07:12pm

Stravo wrote:
Vympel wrote:Life creates the force- being more machine than man doens't mean your ability to manipulat it must diminish.
But how do we then justify GL's statement that now that Vader was more machine than man his ability to use the force has been diminished and he will never be able to achieve his potential? I think that seems to indicate that Lucas is going in the direction that cybernetics diminsh your ability to make the force flow through you.

Perhaps it's psychological or an emotional hindrence...

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-23 07:37pm

IP wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:There is probably a reason why Palpatine didn't just let himself be a big, not-so-luminous glob of Dark Side energy, instead continually using his Clone gambit.
Its because he couldn't do it; not having a host body would cause his spirit to diffuse into the madness of the Dark Side.

Which goes with my point - your body affects your connection with the Force. Now, it won't be the only factor, after all talent and experience with the Force count for a lot too. But losing half your body just can't be good for the connection.

That's moronic. So if you're taller and heavier you'll have a deeper connection with the Force? If you're a Hutt Jedi or some other larger species you're stronger than humans in the Force?

Don't be so black and white. You know that there are many factors in determining your power in the Force.