A Case for Kerry

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Axis Kast
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Post by Axis Kast »

Complete ignorance there Axis. Kerry is only a Senator because he has money? That didn't seem to help a large number of others who ran and lost and are you suggesting that Kennedy has been in office for 42 years against all challengers simply because of machine politics? Come on. Meanwhile George is struggling to get elected once.[/quote]

The election processes in this country are engineered to favor incumbents. When you add Kerry’s large personal fortune and his state’s long history of liberalism into the mix, what you have is an arduous uphill battle for challengers of any stripe.

Ted Kennedy is the biggest machine politician in this country next to Dailey.

That George was full of shit about being a uniter or failed miserably in his attempt to unite everyone. He hasn't united anyone.
Everybody calls themselves a uniter, genius.

Really? We had a slightly close election not that long ago... I wonder if I can recall back that far. It seems so long ago now, and yet they didn't have this sort of registration turnout. Many areas are showing record registrations and some haven't seen this sort of participation in 20+ years.

Again, we didn't call him the Uniter. He called himself that. WHERE is the unity he promised?
Circular reasoning. Just because the election was close doesn’t mean people originally expected it to be close.
The last time I checked, the World Trade Centers were still standing after 1993 and I don't think 3,000 people died in that one either. You have a funny way of measuring responsibility. Under one President a bomb went off, 5 people died and we brought those responsible to justice. Under another President a group hijaaks 4 planes and flies into 3 buildings killing 3,000 and those responsible are still at large.
The problem of terrorism doesn’t end when you catch those immediately responsible.

And you can get off your high horse about Osama bin Laden; al-Qaeda’s on the run, and they’re clearly hurting. Back in 2001, nobody thought we’d go this long without suffering another major attack on home soil.
Well, that and not paying any attention to your top Intel people, their reports and daily action memos denoting plans to hijaak planes and fly them into buildings..... Yeah, he had no responsibility. It's all Clinton's fault.
Now you’re asking for miracles. Do you know how many countless hundreds of threat reports pass by the President’s desk each year? The al-Qaeda memo wasn’t any different than all the rest.
Sounds better than blind faith of the failed.
I’m not the one defending Clinton and Kerry based on misconceptions of their politics. Like I said before, the economy in 2004 is as good as the economy was in 1996 when Clinton ran for reelection.

Wanna bet?
Are you fucking kidding me? John McCain has been black-listed among the Republican stalwarts. He was considered inches away from running alongside John Kerry. Arnold Schwarzenegger has a better chance of getting on the next ticket than John McCain. And the chances of that are slim and none!
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Agrajag
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Post by Agrajag »

Everybody calls themselves a uniter, genius.
When everyone else runs for President by proclaiming their best asset as being a uniter, give me a ring. I don't give a damn what other people call themselves when it comes the the Presidential election. I only care what the candidates call themselves. Are you actually trying to say that just making up bullshit is okay if others do it? I fully understand your support for Bush now.
Just because the election was close doesn’t mean people originally expected it to be close.
Were you away on some out of the solar system trek in 2000? It was clear to nearly everyone that the 2000 election was a dead heat. Polls had them neck and neck for a LONG time.
The problem of terrorism doesn’t end when you catch those immediately responsible.
First, that doesn't answer the issue of Bush having no more responsibility for this tragedy than Clinton had for 1993. Second, terrorism doesn't end when you invade unrelated countries and occupy their country without a plan to get out. In fact, let's be clear about it--terrorism doesn't end, period. George Bush does not own the solution to terrorism and all this crap suggesting that he has a plan to "win the war on terrorism" is a JOKE. NOTHING George Bush can do can with that war. Note I'm not saying Kerry can win it either but he's also not claiming he can win it. MAJOR difference there. All Bush has done is to throw rocks at the bees nest. We are NOT safer as a result.
And you can get off your high horse about Osama bin Laden;


My horse doesn't use drugs. I can understand why your horse might given your support for someone who knows all about that.
al-Qaeda’s on the run, and they’re clearly hurting. Back in 2001, nobody thought we’d go this long without suffering another major attack on home soil.
Er, really? So how do you explain the 8 year run between 1993 and 2001? I guess Clinton really had them on the run until Bush got into office? I'm not suggesting that but hey, your point seems to beg that such a viewpoint is possible. Oh, and Bush didn't stand up there and say, "in 3 years we'll have the people responsible for this on the run."

Yes indeed. We have them so far on the run that they had only enough time to blow up a train in Spain....
Now you’re asking for miracles. Do you know how many countless hundreds of threat reports pass by the President’s desk each year? The al-Qaeda memo wasn’t any different than all the rest.
Uh, forgive me, I expect the highest office in the land to be on top of these issues and not blame the lack of response on too much paperwork and, if there really was that much paperwork, what was he doing on vacation more than 40% of the time? Seems to me he wasn't exactly caught up. Meanwhile Richard Clarke didn't have that same problem. He was busy trying to get time with the man between fishing and golfing to make him aware of the problem. We also have the FBI translater who saw documents outlining very specific dates and times for all of this, but hey, they were in there with so many other things and Bush had some big fish to catch, literally.
I’m not the one defending Clinton and Kerry based on misconceptions of their politics. Like I said before, the economy in 2004 is as good as the economy was in 1996 when Clinton ran for reelection.
Based on what criteria???? Nothing I can find supports that supposition.
Are you fucking kidding me? John McCain has been black-listed among the Republican stalwarts.
So much so that he had prime exposure during a small Republican event like their recent convention. Perhaps you saw that?
He was considered inches away from running alongside John Kerry.
In what Wonderland was this alternate reality? John McCain was never going to be Kerry's running mate. The left may have dreamed about that for a period but I highly doubt McCain gave it any serious thought.

Regardless of what happens in 2004, John McCain will be running for President in 2008 as a Republican.
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Post by Axis Kast »

When everyone else runs for President by proclaiming their best asset as being a uniter, give me a ring. I don't give a damn what other people call themselves when it comes the the Presidential election. I only care what the candidates call themselves. Are you actually trying to say that just making up bullshit is okay if others do it? I fully understand your support for Bush now.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/27/dems.kennedy/

“America needs a uniter, the senator said.”

Eat it. Kerry’s no more a uniter than Bush. Of course, that doesn’t stop him from using the oldest claim in the book – one that is certain to be uttered amongst the rest of the campaign trail bullshit.
Were you away on some out of the solar system trek in 2000? It was clear to nearly everyone that the 2000 election was a dead heat. Polls had them neck and neck for a LONG time.
Prove it.

First, that doesn't answer the issue of Bush having no more responsibility for this tragedy than Clinton had for 1993. Second, terrorism doesn't end when you invade unrelated countries and occupy their country without a plan to get out. In fact, let's be clear about it--terrorism doesn't end, period. George Bush does not own the solution to terrorism and all this crap suggesting that he has a plan to "win the war on terrorism" is a JOKE. NOTHING George Bush can do can with that war. Note I'm not saying Kerry can win it either but he's also not claiming he can win it. MAJOR difference there. All Bush has done is to throw rocks at the bees nest. We are NOT safer as a result.
George Bush has invaded and occupied Afghanistan. He has sent a clear message to the state sponsors of terrorism regarding the consequences of such actions.

George Bush has invaded and occupied Iraq. He has sent a clear message to the leadership of rogue nations worldwide. They are living on borrowed time if they think they can challenge the United States without the benefit of nuclear weapons. In occupying that country, we have also taken the first – necessary – steps toward restructuring an Arab nation and providing a government that isn’t founded in fundamentalist Islam.

Er, really? So how do you explain the 8 year run between 1993 and 2001? I guess Clinton really had them on the run until Bush got into office? I'm not suggesting that but hey, your point seems to beg that such a viewpoint is possible. Oh, and Bush didn't stand up there and say, "in 3 years we'll have the people responsible for this on the run."

Yes indeed. We have them so far on the run that they had only enough time to blow up a train in Spain....
During Clinton’s watch, there were also the ’98 bombings and the Cole bombing. Bush, at least, responds to attacks on U.S. targets with a clear and overwhelming response; Clinton lobbed cruise missiles and his supporters claimed any stronger response was impossible because Clinton would have suffered given the Lewinsky Affair.

Uh, forgive me, I expect the highest office in the land to be on top of these issues and not blame the lack of response on too much paperwork and, if there really was that much paperwork, what was he doing on vacation more than 40% of the time? Seems to me he wasn't exactly caught up. Meanwhile Richard Clarke didn't have that same problem. He was busy trying to get time with the man between fishing and golfing to make him aware of the problem. We also have the FBI translater who saw documents outlining very specific dates and times for all of this, but hey, they were in there with so many other things and Bush had some big fish to catch, literally
Nice try. We’re talking about a needle in a haystack; the “imminent threat” memo was one of countless others being shuffled around the Beltway among the intelligence community. Bush could have been working double shifts in the Oval Office and still never have given that piece of information any special credence over any other.

Based on what criteria???? Nothing I can find supports that supposition.

From BussinessWeek Online, Sept. 6, 2004 edition.
So much so that he had prime exposure during a small Republican event like their recent convention. Perhaps you saw that?
As a matter of damage control. The administration pushed him into appearing in order to give the impression that their prodigal son had returned, so to speak.

In what Wonderland was this alternate reality? John McCain was never going to be Kerry's running mate. The left may have dreamed about that for a period but I highly doubt McCain gave it any serious thought.

Regardless of what happens in 2004, John McCain will be running for President in 2008 as a Republican.
Unlikely – not given his recent medical history and political mistakes. John McCain was a bad soldier, and it is likely that the Republican elite will make him pay once this election is over.
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Agrajag
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Post by Agrajag »

Axis Kast wrote:Eat it. Kerry’s no more a uniter than Bush.
You're going to have to do a lot better than that if you think you're going to get anywhere with me. Thankfully, I'm very familiar with right-wing fanatic tactics so I was certain, before ever getting to your "source" that you'd likely left out something important. Here's the entire quote:

"In these challenging times for our country, in these fateful times for the world, America needs a genuine uniter, not a divider who only claims to be a uniter."

There's a huge difference between someone who claims to be a uniter and then polarizes much of the entire world, let alone, his own country and someone else who claims another person is a real uniter. Nice try though.
Were you away on some out of the solar system trek in 2000? It was clear to nearly everyone that the 2000 election was a dead heat. Polls had them neck and neck for a LONG time.
Prove it.
Prove it? Next you'll ask me to prove that Wednesday follows Tuesday.

The polls were erratic at times but almost always within the margin for error. Here's one:

Polls Generally on Target
Updated 4:31 AM ET November 9, 2000

By WILL LESTER, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The often-maligned presidential polls have had their
problems in
recent months. In the final surveys before the election, however, most
showed Democrat
Al Gore gaining ground on Republican George W. Bush and called the
presidential race a
virtual tossup.

Final election polls are the acid test for pollsters, who get a harsh
dose of reality a day or
so later when the votes are counted. A major complication is to
identify likely voters.

"The polls did pretty well," said Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research
Center for the
People & the Press, whose poll closed Monday to a 2-point Bush
advantage within the
error margin, 49 percent to 47 percent.

Kohut noted many major national polls were in the same ballpark, and
most admitted the
race was too close to project a winner.

Two national polls, by CBS News and New York pollster John Zogby, put
Gore in a
narrow lead for the popular vote, which is exactly how the election
turned out. Bush may
yet win the more important battle for electoral votes, depending on
the outcome of a
recount in Florida.

"It would be asking a lot for them to be much better," said Kohut. "As
I expected they
would, they came together, and in the end they rendered a lack of a
clear preference for
Bush or Gore, which is exactly what we've got."

The poll that hit the margin the closest was CBS News, which in a poll
Tuesday morning
showed Gore ahead, 45-44 - a 1-point Gore advantage that was the
closest to Gore's
actual advantage of just under 100,000 votes.

"The polling this year was very good, at the end," said Kathleen
Frankovic, director of
surveys at CBS News. "It turned out that almost everyone produced a
result that this was
going to be a close election and a very long night."

Many polls had shown Bush with a narrow lead in the final two weeks,
and the CBS poll
caught a trend of voters shifting to Gore, especially women, as his
part of the gender gap
expanded again in the last couple of days.

Another poll that caught the late trend was Zogby's national tracking
poll, which showed
Gore up by 2 points at the end.

"We started to see Gore closing Saturday and Sunday through Monday,"
Zogby said.
"The last three days, Gore won two of three. We began to catch the
dissipation of (Ralph)
Nader's support. Nader would go down a point, and Gore would go up a
point."

Most of the national tracking polls ended up very close:

-CNN-USA Today-Gallup with Bush ahead 48-46.

-Zogby with Gore ahead 48-46.

-ABC News (which shared data with The Washington Post) with Bush ahead
48-45.

-The TIPP poll, conducted for the Christian Science Monitor and
Investor's Business
Daily, with Bush ahead 48-46.

-The Voter.com Battleground poll with Bush ahead 50-45.
George Bush has invaded and occupied Afghanistan. He has sent a clear message to the state sponsors of terrorism regarding the consequences of such actions.
Yes, attack us and we'll attack you and when we find we can't achieve our goals we'll attack other seemingly defenseless countries we happen to need resources from while not bothering to tackle anyone of any real significance. Meanwhile are you not aware that the Taliban is back in force in Afghanistan and that Karzai is now essentially reduced to being the mayor of Kabul?
In occupying that country, we have also taken the first – necessary – steps toward restructuring an Arab nation and providing a government that isn’t founded in fundamentalist Islam.
Egads... When that succeeds, let me know. I won't be holding my breath. Yeah, we're going to succeed where nations before us, spending far longer, failed miserably, or are you not aware of history in Iraq? The Iraqi people, by and large have NO love for us, our system of government, or "religion" or our way of life. We're viewed just as the British were, as infidels and occupiers and we're not going to get any further along than they did:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story ... 08,00.html

Iraq has been the way it is for a millennia. The British took over just after World War I and they left in 1958. So for 40 years they had exposure to all the sorts of things we believe in. How many signs of that do you see in Iraq these days? It's as if they were never there and guess how it's going to look when we finally drag ourselves out of there?
Bush, at least, responds to attacks on U.S. targets with a clear and overwhelming response
Clear? 15 Saudi's attack us and we attack Afghanistan and then abandon it by breaking all our promises of support and leaving too few troops there to help and then attack a nation that had nothing to do with it and then stay there with too few troops to be able to control what we broke. I'm impressed.
Nice try. We’re talking about a needle in a haystack; the “imminent threat” memo was one of countless others being shuffled around the Beltway among the intelligence community. Bush could have been working double shifts in the Oval Office and still never have given that piece of information any special credence over any other.
Are you really that gullible? Needle in a haystack? You've got your top terror expert trying every way possible to get an audience with you to discuss Al Qaida and Condi Rice has the action report IN HER HANDS and dismisses it. Talk about a large needle in a small haystack.
As a matter of damage control. The administration pushed him into appearing in order to give the impression that their prodigal son had returned, so to speak.
Yeah, okay. Remember I told you he was running in 2008 as a Republican.
Unlikely – not given his recent medical history and political mistakes. John McCain was a bad soldier, and it is likely that the Republican elite will make him pay once this election is over.
They're not that stupid.
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Post by Beowulf »

Does the phrase "Coalition of the Bribed and Coerced" ring a bell? Remember who came up with it? It seems slightly... divisive to me...
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Post by Axis Kast »

You're going to have to do a lot better than that if you think you're going to get anywhere with me. Thankfully, I'm very familiar with right-wing fanatic tactics so I was certain, before ever getting to your "source" that you'd likely left out something important. Here's the entire quote:

"In these challenging times for our country, in these fateful times for the world, America needs a genuine uniter, not a divider who only claims to be a uniter."

There's a huge difference between someone who claims to be a uniter and then polarizes much of the entire world, let alone, his own country and someone else who claims another person is a real uniter. Nice try though.
And what do you think was Kerry’s underlying reason for talking about unity, Sherlock? It doesn’t take a genius to see that he’s trying to claim the mantle of “uniter” for himself. Your argument is the equivalent of calling a President a willful liar because they promised to be a “good” president. The term is highly subjective. In fact, Bush is technically a uniter based on his polling numbers. He’ll marshal a far greater number of party faithful than Bill Clinton.
Prove it? Next you'll ask me to prove that Wednesday follows Tuesday.

The polls were erratic at times but almost always within the margin for error.
… and you’ve tried to give me pre-, post-, and near-election polls, all within a week of the final vote… which does nothing to substantiate your argument that the race was considered neck-and-neck all along.
Yes, attack us and we'll attack you and when we find we can't achieve our goals we'll attack other seemingly defenseless countries we happen to need resources from while not bothering to tackle anyone of any real significance. Meanwhile are you not aware that the Taliban is back in force in Afghanistan and that Karzai is now essentially reduced to being the mayor of Kabul?
Prove that Iraq was a war for oil. Back your assertion with clear facts.

The Taliban are being subject to a withering campaign. In fact, they lost another major leader only this week to American hunter-killer units.
Egads... When that succeeds, let me know. I won't be holding my breath. Yeah, we're going to succeed where nations before us, spending far longer, failed miserably, or are you not aware of history in Iraq? The Iraqi people, by and large have NO love for us, our system of government, or "religion" or our way of life. We're viewed just as the British were, as infidels and occupiers and we're not going to get any further along than they did:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story ... 08,00.html

Iraq has been the way it is for a millennia. The British took over just after World War I and they left in 1958. So for 40 years they had exposure to all the sorts of things we believe in. How many signs of that do you see in Iraq these days? It's as if they were never there and guess how it's going to look when we finally drag ourselves out of there?
Actually, Iraq is the most secular country in the Middle East, excepting Israel and Turkey.
Clear? 15 Saudi's attack us and we attack Afghanistan and then abandon it by breaking all our promises of support and leaving too few troops there to help and then attack a nation that had nothing to do with it and then stay there with too few troops to be able to control what we broke. I'm impressed.
Afghanistan was the nation-state that provided material support to those terrorists, idiot. They were a necessary target.

Are you really that gullible? Needle in a haystack? You've got your top terror expert trying every way possible to get an audience with you to discuss Al Qaida and Condi Rice has the action report IN HER HANDS and dismisses it. Talk about a large needle in a small haystack.
One action report out of thousands. You seem to be under the impression that the al-Qaeda threat stood out among many others before September 2001. Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that it didn’t. Like I said before, all of our scenarios regarding how to deal with hijacked planes began and ended at either the point of take-off or the point of landing.
Yeah, okay. Remember I told you he was running in 2008 as a Republican.
Not if he’s alienated himself to the party faithful, he’s not. And that’s exactly what John McCain managed to do. There’s a reason he didn’t win in 2000, too, despite his technically higher standing than Bush.
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Post by Edi »

Axis Kast wrote:And what do you think was Kerry’s underlying reason for talking about unity, Sherlock? It doesn’t take a genius to see that he’s trying to claim the mantle of “uniter” for himself. Your argument is the equivalent of calling a President a willful liar because they promised to be a “good” president. The term is highly subjective. In fact, Bush is technically a uniter based on his polling numbers. He’ll marshal a far greater number of party faithful than Bill Clinton.
Typical dodge of the question, Comical Axi. Bush claimed to be a president who would unite all Americans, not just the party faithful. And it's quite unnecessary to bring up his uniter claim when calling him a liar, the Iraqi WMD debacle made him one beyond a shadow of doubt. Besides, why should Kerry not call himself a uniter? He certainly can't do a worse job of that than Bush has.

Axis Kast wrote:The Taliban are being subject to a withering campaign. In fact, they lost another major leader only this week to American hunter-killer units.
Withering only in your delusions, Kast. I'd call it withering if there were half the resources being unsuccessfully used in Iraq, and the campaign against them was withering before Bush's Iraq invasion, but since then the operations against the Taliban have been few, far between and relatively ineffective compared to what they were before.
Axis Kast wrote:Actually, Iraq is the most secular country in the Middle East, excepting Israel and Turkey.
You mean Iraq WAS the most secular country in the Middle East after Turkey and Israel. Right now it's a shithole where fundamentalists run riot and the populace calls for a government according to Islamic principles.

Axis Kast wrote:Afghanistan was the nation-state that provided material support to those terrorists, idiot. They were a necessary target.
He's not disputing that, he's telling you that leaving just a token force in Afghanistan and breaking all promises of aid (Bush talked abput rebuilding the country, remember?) just so you could inade Iraq which had diddlysquat to do with the war on terror was a fucking bad idea.
Axis Kast wrote:One action report out of thousands. You seem to be under the impression that the al-Qaeda threat stood out among many others before September 2001. Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that it didn’t.
Outright lie. AQ had committed the USS Cole bombing in Yemen, bombed two US embassies, and conducted other terrorist attacks against US and US interests and it was known that these were AQ strikes, so your assertion that they did not stand out is blatantly false.
Axis Kast wrote:Like I said before, all of our scenarios regarding how to deal with hijacked planes began and ended at either the point of take-off or the point of landing.
Due to negligence. The subject of planes being used as missiles had been brought up years earlier when plans for such usage were uncovered in the Philippines. The reports were later forgotten or ignored.

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Post by Axis Kast »

Typical dodge of the question, Comical Axi. Bush claimed to be a president who would unite all Americans, not just the party faithful. And it's quite unnecessary to bring up his uniter claim when calling him a liar, the Iraqi WMD debacle made him one beyond a shadow of doubt. Besides, why should Kerry not call himself a uniter? He certainly can't do a worse job of that than Bush has.
You’re splitting proverbial hairs here to grasp a victory based entirely on your own subjective analysis, moron. All politicians will tell you they intend to unite the electorate. All politicians will tell you they will be an effective force for positive change. It goes with the territory of seeking office. You might as well roundly condemn all politicians as liars and stop voting at all because they never admit that what they’re really after is money, power, or influence. Indicting Bush because he is not a “uniter” is like calling somebody a criminal because they’ve J-walked. Everybody does it, and it has no standing on their actual honesty.

Withering only in your delusions, Kast. I'd call it withering if there were half the resources being unsuccessfully used in Iraq, and the campaign against them was withering before Bush's Iraq invasion, but since then the operations against the Taliban have been few, far between and relatively ineffective compared to what they were before.
Which is why we just lopped off the head of their operations, eh? You make this too easy.
You mean Iraq WAS the most secular country in the Middle East after Turkey and Israel. Right now it's a shithole where fundamentalists run riot and the populace calls for a government according to Islamic principles.

The influence of years of secular existence don’t fall by the wayside because the imposing force of that influence is gone. Iraqis still have vastly different expectations and opinions regarding “effective” government than, say, Saudis.

He's not disputing that, he's telling you that leaving just a token force in Afghanistan and breaking all promises of aid (Bush talked abput rebuilding the country, remember?) just so you could inade Iraq which had diddlysquat to do with the war on terror was a fucking bad idea.
We’ve already been down this road before. I disagree that Iraq had nothing to do with the War on Terror.

Outright lie. AQ had committed the USS Cole bombing in Yemen, bombed two US embassies, and conducted other terrorist attacks against US and US interests and it was known that these were AQ strikes, so your assertion that they did not stand out is blatantly false.
And it wasn’t anticipated that they could ever effect an attack using airplanes as suicide weapons. AQ was considered a completely external threat.
Due to negligence. The subject of planes being used as missiles had been brought up years earlier when plans for such usage were uncovered in the Philippines. The reports were later forgotten or ignored.
Negligence that nobody could have known to correct before 9/11. The lone cries of a few whistle-blowers going against convention weren’t going to cut it.
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Post by Agrajag »

Axis Kast wrote:
The term is highly subjective. In fact, Bush is technically a uniter based on his polling numbers. He’ll marshal a far greater number of party faithful than Bill Clinton.[/b]
It's not subjective in the way Bush used it. He said time and again (which Kerry is NOT doing) and specifically made a point of saying he was an outsider and was known for getting the left and right to work together (which was a sham, but that's another topic). This was said at every opportunity. The man is a liar, period. On September 17th he said he "remembered" days in his youth of people putting up signs in Texas that said, "Wanted--Dead or Alive" and that he wanted justice for Osama and that we'd get it, dead or alive. First there's the whole typically goofy Bush-ism that unless he was around for 1800's, he never saw such signs except in movies. Second, a year later, after it was clear he couldn't get Osama, he said one man wasn't important and that he no longer thinks about him much at all. Talk about being full of shit and, by the way, flip-flopping at the same time. He does this CONTINUALLY.
… and you’ve tried to give me pre-, post-, and near-election polls, all within a week of the final vote… which does nothing to substantiate your argument that the race was considered neck-and-neck all along.
Where do I send the time machine for you? Give me a break.
prove that Iraq was a war for oil. Back your assertion with clear facts.
Prove that you ate this morning. Prove it. This is your response to everything??? Give it time. BTW, on the full of shit lying level, this is yet another one. Iraq's oil would be paying for this war. That came right from Bush and Cheney and, once again, nothing could be further from the truth.
The Taliban are being subject to a withering campaign. In fact, they lost another major leader only this week to American hunter-killer units.
Meanwhile they control much of the country, Karzai knows us to be untrustworthy, our troops are being killed there and there are limitless people to take the place of the few leaders we may get.
Actually, Iraq is the most secular country in the Middle East, excepting Israel and Turkey.
That's like saying except for an apple and an orange, a banana is the least like a fruit of all fruits. First, I don't believe that. Second, it's such a small distinction comparatively as to be useless.
Afghanistan was the nation-state that provided material support to those terrorists, idiot. They were a necessary target.
They were an easy target, first and foremost. We certainly weren't even going to explore the Saudi situation. Second, AGAIN, we did a portion of the job and made many promises that we then reneged on. Of course they all sounded good at the time for all the press.
One action report out of thousands. You seem to be under the impression that the al-Qaeda threat stood out among many others before September 2001.
That's just not accurate. And, BTW, stop with the "one out of thousands" crap. It's their job to explore these. Even if this were the case (and Clarke and the FBI interpreter both said there were lots of material covering this issue), very few people are going to allow the excuse that there was just too much data to sort through, especially when you're on vacation almost half the time. This is supposed to the administration that are the experts on terrorism.
Not if he’s alienated himself to the party faithful, he’s not. And that’s exactly what John McCain managed to do. There’s a reason he didn’t win in 2000, too, despite his technically higher standing than Bush.
We'll just agree to disagree and time will take care of this.
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Post by Agrajag »

Axis Kast wrote:All politicians will tell you they intend to unite the electorate.
The KEY difference here is that it was a prime centerpiece of Bush's campaign. Kerry is not doing the same thing. He's saying he could do a better job, and frankly, many of us realize it'd be nearly impossible not to do a better job of uniting the country. Again, BUSH made this a key element of his campaign. It wasn't just something he said a few times as a toss-in comment. This was said as a central argument for electing him. The old children's argument that, "everyone else does it" just isn't going to cut it here.
We’ve already been down this road before. I disagree that Iraq had nothing to do with the War on Terror.
Then there's little to be gained from debating with you. The 9/11 commission clearly stated that Iraq had nothing to do with this act. Were their involved in terror campaigns? I have no doubt about that but gee, that would apply to just about every country out there. We'd be very high on that list. When are we going to attack ourselves? Nothing personal but the impact of a guy running into a building and blowing up 10 people and a multi-million dollar guided missle flying into a nearby building and killing dozens is clear. One is a nut case from a fringe fundamentalist group. The other is from a much scarier source to most. Try seeing things from outside your own experience for a change.
And it wasn’t anticipated that they could ever effect an attack using airplanes as suicide weapons. AQ was considered a completely external threat.
It WAS anticipated and documented! We knew they were taking flying lessons IN THIS COUNTRY. We certainly knew planes could be hijaaked. Which part of this is outside the capability of understanding????
Negligence that nobody could have known to correct before 9/11. The lone cries of a few whistle-blowers going against convention weren’t going to cut it.
This administration is billing itself as the experts in the war on terror. They had the opportunity to address any situation they wanted and they have had the FULL power to do it (and yet repeatedly they claim that Kerry and Edwards have somehow managed to keep them from getting what they want). Being asleep at the wheel is not an acceptable excuse from our leadership.

In ANY other scenario in this world, such a group would be out on their ASS. Imagine for a moment that you're the head of a company and, while you're there, something happens that you didn't anticipate that ends up costing the company dearly. Do you really believe that walking in front of the board of directors and saying, "We couldn't anticipate this" and "we only had a few people who saw it as a problem" is going to save your job? What are you smoking?

Imagine further that while on the same job you get the company involved in a situation that becomes extremely costly and costs the company millions of dollars and the loss of prestige in the market. When the board asks why this happened do you honestly believe that telling them, "Well, the information I based those decisions on turned out to be inaccurate" is going to save your ass? You're out of your mind if you think that would happen. In both cases you'd be history immediately and I expect a LOT more from my President than I do from the head of a corporate entity.

It's like we're dealing with children here! Did we somehow get the "Our Gang" kids to run the country???
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Post by Agrajag »

Here's a link debunk the ridiculous assertion that no one could anticipate the events of 9/11:

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?sto ... 7222832444

Note the August 6th date and all the G8 warnings. He knew. He was too busy thinking about fish.

On the G8 here's another one:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/s ... 18,00.html

So the President of Egypt informs Bush of this and still you say he and his top people couldn't anticipate Bin Laden doing any of this sort of thing???

Right....
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Post by Axis Kast »

It's not subjective in the way Bush used it. He said time and again (which Kerry is NOT doing) and specifically made a point of saying he was an outsider and was known for getting the left and right to work together (which was a sham, but that's another topic). This was said at every opportunity. The man is a liar, period. On September 17th he said he "remembered" days in his youth of people putting up signs in Texas that said, "Wanted--Dead or Alive" and that he wanted justice for Osama and that we'd get it, dead or alive. First there's the whole typically goofy Bush-ism that unless he was around for 1800's, he never saw such signs except in movies. Second, a year later, after it was clear he couldn't get Osama, he said one man wasn't important and that he no longer thinks about him much at all. Talk about being full of shit and, by the way, flip-flopping at the same time. He does this CONTINUALLY.
I have to say that this is highly entertaining. Never before have I met anyone so desperate to take the most minor of campaign stump declarations – “I’m a good guy, and people will like me,” – and try to warp it into evidence of a failure to deliver to the electorate on an actual and meaningful level. All this has done is to mark you as either supremely naïve or supremely shallow. If you believed what people actually tell you about their character on the campaign trail – people you’ve never met for more than a handshake, and people trying to win the hearts of millions of voters with very different interests –, then I’ve got a bridge to sell in Brooklyn. And if you think Bush’s insistence that he would be a good leader is evidence that he lied about something that isn’t utterly subjective in every sense of the word, you’re just plain stupid.

Where do I send the time machine for you? Give me a break.
You’re the one who posted an article about the post-election situation. I asked for proof that people knew it would be a close race in the twelve to one month(s) prior.

Prove that you ate this morning. Prove it. This is your response to everything???
Well, yes, that’s generally how debates work.

Give it time. BTW, on the full of shit lying level, this is yet another one. Iraq's oil would be paying for this war. That came right from Bush and Cheney and, once again, nothing could be further from the truth.
Wait, wait. We say that if we liberate Iraq, we will expect them to pay for their reconstruction using their own resources, and you construe this as some kind of greedy land grab? News-flash: if we had wanted oil, we’d just have offed Chavez and called it a day.
Meanwhile they control much of the country, Karzai knows us to be untrustworthy, our troops are being killed there and there are limitless people to take the place of the few leaders we may get.
The death of an organization’s top leadership tends to set them back some, you realize. :lol: When we go after those people aggressively and effectively on a consistent basis, they begin devoting more resources to running and less to plotting violence. They also tend to run out of the kinds of highly skilled personnel capable of coordinating such efforts rather quickly. We see it in Israel right now.
That's like saying except for an apple and an orange, a banana is the least like a fruit of all fruits. First, I don't believe that. Second, it's such a small distinction comparatively as to be useless.
Not at all. Social structures in Iraq are quite different from those in, say, Saudi Arabia, for example. Women, for instance, have very different expectations about their future in Iraq than they do elsewhere in the Middle East.
They were an easy target, first and foremost. We certainly weren't even going to explore the Saudi situation. Second, AGAIN, we did a portion of the job and made many promises that we then reneged on. Of course they all sounded good at the time for all the press.
So we shouldn’t have gone into Afghanistan? What’s your fucking point? That there’s more left to do – well that’s obvious. We didn’t need you to tell us that.

And what’s this obsession with you and taking the high road? We can’t fight a war but with countries guaranteed to make it hard for us to win? An enemy doesn’t stop being an enemy because he’s smaller or weaker than you are.
That's just not accurate. And, BTW, stop with the "one out of thousands" crap. It's their job to explore these. Even if this were the case (and Clarke and the FBI interpreter both said there were lots of material covering this issue), very few people are going to allow the excuse that there was just too much data to sort through, especially when you're on vacation almost half the time. This is supposed to the administration that are the experts on terrorism.

Bush is President at a time when this nation has never been more “wired.” His time out of the White House is tempered by his ability to remain in communication consistently. It’s also worth pointing out that, before Bush, the president who spent the least time actually in office was Bill Clinton – which suggests that as time progresses, technology makes it easier to escape the confines of a single, centralized office.

Furthermore, it isn’t the President’s job to sift through the thousands of intelligence reports coming his way. He was receiving multiple assessments of dangers facing the United States, of which al-Qaeda’s plan to hit the World Trade Center with aircraft was only one.

Then there's little to be gained from debating with you. The 9/11 commission clearly stated that Iraq had nothing to do with this act. Were their involved in terror campaigns? I have no doubt about that but gee, that would apply to just about every country out there. We'd be very high on that list. When are we going to attack ourselves? Nothing personal but the impact of a guy running into a building and blowing up 10 people and a multi-million dollar guided missle flying into a nearby building and killing dozens is clear. One is a nut case from a fringe fundamentalist group. The other is from a much scarier source to most. Try seeing things from outside your own experience for a change.
You’ve doubtless encountered my prior arguments about threat assessment in the post-9/11 world. “Rogue” regimes like that of Hussein and the need to fundamentally restructure the Middle East by occupying a nation and forcing Western democracy on them – because the cycle of dictatorships and Islamofascism certainly wasn’t going to produce any sort of dynamic change whatsoever – made going into Iraq more necessary than ever before.

And Bush’s plans of preemption already apply to every country. We set no new precedent that will influence anybody’s actions in the future. Real leaders know that the world is a dangerous place where enemies will strike for reasons far more complex than, “Well, Bush did it, too!”
It WAS anticipated and documented! We knew they were taking flying lessons IN THIS COUNTRY. We certainly knew planes could be hijaaked. Which part of this is outside the capability of understanding????
No, you blithering idiot. We didn’t think they’d be able to get off the fucking ground. I’ve said it twice already – maybe even three times. Every hijack plan on the books suggested that a SWAT team at one end of the flight or another would be the effective answer.
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Post by Agrajag »

BTW, before I get too started here, here's a great piece today in the Seattle Post Intelligencer:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/ ... ney29.html

TYPICAL of the entire problem here. Here's a top part of it: Dick Cheney more than a decade ago defended the decision to leave Saddam Hussein in power after the first Gulf War, telling a Seattle audience that capturing Saddam wouldn't be worth additional U.S. casualties or the risk of getting "bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq."
Never before have I met anyone so desperate to take the most minor of campaign stump declarations – “I’m a good guy, and people will like me,”
Axis, you're an idiot. That is NOT in any WAY, SHAPE or FORM what the President said, suggested, meant or promised. At EVERY turn the man made a MAJOR case for his being an outsider and that he was the only person who could bring everyone together. This was NOT just some standard line offered up as a minor piece of his campaign. I don't care how minor YOU think it is. BUSH made it a MAJOR issue. I can't believe how desperate you are to sweep it under the rug. You make excuses for this administration at every turn. His promises are just minor points, his administration wasn't able to anticipate trouble because of too many pieces of paper, etc., etc., etc.

In your view, you cannot believe what the candidates say so why are you believing what the President is telling you now??? You create your own Catch-22.
And if you think Bush’s insistence that he would be a good leader is evidence that he lied about something that isn’t utterly subjective in every sense of the word, you’re just plain stupid.
When you see me saying that, let me know. Saying you're going to be a good leader and then failing to be a good leader isn't lying, it's failing. However, saying you're a uniter and then immediately moving to divide people IS a lie. That is NOT failing.
You’re the one who posted an article about the post-election situation. I asked for proof that people knew it would be a close race in the twelve to one month(s) prior.
http://www.insidepolitics.org/heard/heard31900.html
Agrajag: Give it time. BTW, on the full of shit lying level, this is yet another one. Iraq's oil would be paying for this war. That came right from Bush and Cheney and, once again, nothing could be further from the truth.

Axis: Wait, wait. We say that if we liberate Iraq, we will expect them to pay for their reconstruction using their own resources, and you construe this as some kind of greedy land grab?
Go re-read the comment. I said it was a lie from this administration that their oil will pay for this war. That was the statement and none of that has come to pass. Time will show that this was about oil just as the 1991 war was.
The death of an organization’s top leadership tends to set them back some, you realize.
Axis, this isn't a social club with a few members. We can cut off the head of these organizations and never achieve anything except some nice headlines. It's like suggesting that if they kill Bush, we're going to be slowed down in our determination to put them down. Yeah, okay.
When we go after those people aggressively and effectively on a consistent basis, they begin devoting more resources to running and less to plotting violence.
History does not support your view. You mean like the decades of war with the IRA? You mean like the decades of struggle between Israel and Pakistan? All you do is embolden the enemy against you and prove their very case against you.
That's like saying except for an apple and an orange, a banana is the least like a fruit of all fruits. First, I don't believe that. Second, it's such a small distinction comparatively as to be useless.
So we shouldn’t have gone into Afghanistan? What’s your fucking point? That there’s more left to do – well that’s obvious. We didn’t need you to tell us that.
My POINT is that, as usual, this administration didn't finish the job. There's NEVER a plan to finish. Get in, get all the solid press and when the going gets tough, play the bait and switch game to get the emphasis off the tough situation. Should we have gone into Afghanistan? Certainly, but we left it before the job was done. What we have there now is a farce to just make it out like we're doing something there when we're not. Karzai is furious with us and he's our own hand-picked choice to run the country.

If you honestly believe there is some plan to go back and correct the Afghanistan situation then you're more gullible than I am.
And what’s this obsession with you and taking the high road? We can’t fight a war but with countries guaranteed to make it hard for us to win? An enemy doesn’t stop being an enemy because he’s smaller or weaker than you are.
hahaha So the hard war isn't worth it? It's only worth it if the war is an easy one? Explain that to the World War vets. When the administration talks about the axis of evil and makes statements like our needing to take pre-emptive action against those who hate us and then waffles on those who represent the biggest concerns, THAT shows the true colors of the message.
Bush is President at a time when this nation has never been more “wired.” His time out of the White House is tempered by his ability to remain in communication consistently.
More excuses. He's so wired that he couldn't anticipate what was obvious to the intelligence departments. Yeah, he was wired. Wired on what is the question...
It’s also worth pointing out that, before Bush, the president who spent the least time actually in office was Bill Clinton – which suggests that as time progresses, technology makes it easier to escape the confines of a single, centralized office.
hehehe. Yeah and paperwork will be eliminated by technology too. Been waiting on that one for decades.
Furthermore, it isn’t the President’s job to sift through the thousands of intelligence reports coming his way. He was receiving multiple assessments of dangers facing the United States, of which al-Qaeda’s plan to hit the World Trade Center with aircraft was only one.
It's the job of his administration to figure this out and give the President the correct information. This guy apparently needs to fire everyone because he's constantly missing information or getting the wrong information. For a smart guy he seems to be continually dealing with the wrong data or a lack of data. Again, you make more excuses for the guy.
made going into Iraq more necessary than ever before.
Bullshit. NONE of that was stated as the reason for going into Iraq. Bush would have NEVER gotten support for such a tactic. He'd have been laughed out of office for trying that one.
We didn’t think they’d be able to get off the fucking ground.
You can say it 20 times, it won't change the fact that the information showed clearly that they have every opportunity to get off the ground. A SWAT team wasn't involved at any level of this and this administration did NOTHING to deal with the CLEAR information outlining exactly what happened. If this administration believed they couldn't get off the ground, well, guess what? THEY WERE DEAD WRONG AND NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR POOR JUDGEMENT!!!!

Excuse after excuse after excuse..... That's all you have to offer. Bush is a leader but he makes the wrong decisions. Oh, but others felt this way, oh but the data was incorrect, oh but there was too much to go though, but Bush is a leader! Bush is the man for the job! ......
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Post by Axis Kast »

TYPICAL of the entire problem here. Here's a top part of it: Dick Cheney more than a decade ago defended the decision to leave Saddam Hussein in power after the first Gulf War, telling a Seattle audience that capturing Saddam wouldn't be worth additional U.S. casualties or the risk of getting "bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq."


This from the man in favor of dynamism. :lol: Times change. So do perceptions. The key words in your statement: “more than a decade ago.”
Axis, you're an idiot.
I’m not the one who seems to think that all politicians are honest when they’re on the campaign stump.
That is NOT in any WAY, SHAPE or FORM what the President said, suggested, meant or promised. At EVERY turn the man made a MAJOR case for his being an outsider and that he was the only person who could bring everyone together. This was NOT just some standard line offered up as a minor piece of his campaign. I don't care how minor YOU think it is. BUSH made it a MAJOR issue. I can't believe how desperate you are to sweep it under the rug. You make excuses for this administration at every turn. His promises are just minor points, his administration wasn't able to anticipate trouble because of too many pieces of paper, etc., etc., etc.

In your view, you cannot believe what the candidates say so why are you believing what the President is telling you now??? You create your own Catch-22.
Well of course Bush is going to claim he’ll make everybody feel fuzzy-wuzzy and good about their neighbor. It’s a requirement of candidacy.

As for what I believe, get real. There’s a difference between Bush’s policy and the pre-election bullshit of every Presidential hopeful.
When you see me saying that, let me know. Saying you're going to be a good leader and then failing to be a good leader isn't lying, it's failing. However, saying you're a uniter and then immediately moving to divide people IS a lie. That is NOT failing.
But wait! I thought going against the grain was a good quality. Oh, wait. I forgot. It’s only when Democrats do it. Oops.

Not to mention your asinine attempt to make it sound as if Bush planned to make his presidency controversial.
Wow. I’m impressed. You can find a website without any poll numbers whatsoever that makes an argument that wouldn’t even pass muster with a high-school teacher for lack of corresponding evidence. You want to give people numbers, son, not hot air.

Go re-read the comment. I said it was a lie from this administration that their oil will pay for this war. That was the statement and none of that has come to pass. Time will show that this was about oil just as the 1991 war was.
So we shouldn’t have aided Kuwait in 1991? We shouldn’t have put the breaks on Saddam’s plans – when he was clearly an insane individual out to expand at the expense of his neighbors? Wow. That would have been great for regional stability.

And that the oil hasn’t started to flow has no bearing on where it will go. The problem is that the pipelines still need to be adequately defended, not that the oil is going into Bush’s bank account, liar.

Axis, this isn't a social club with a few members. We can cut off the head of these organizations and never achieve anything except some nice headlines. It's like suggesting that if they kill Bush, we're going to be slowed down in our determination to put them down. Yeah, okay.
First of all, an assassination tends to knock the wind out of any country. That’s kind of why we tried to kill people like Hitler and Castro when the possibilities arose, moron.

Secondly, al-Qaeda isn’t a country. There are far fewer institutional safeguards to prevent organizational breakdown. Besides the fact that killing a cell leader usually means simultaneously chasing remaining members into hiding or away from their prior location, something that doesn’t always correspond to national assassinations.

History does not support your view. You mean like the decades of war with the IRA? You mean like the decades of struggle between Israel and Pakistan? All you do is embolden the enemy against you and prove their very case against you.
Car bombings no longer occur in Israel because the IDF shot or jailed all those capable of making such bombs. The terrorists in Palestine are now reduced to suicide bombings.
My POINT is that, as usual, this administration didn't finish the job. There's NEVER a plan to finish. Get in, get all the solid press and when the going gets tough, play the bait and switch game to get the emphasis off the tough situation. Should we have gone into Afghanistan? Certainly, but we left it before the job was done. What we have there now is a farce to just make it out like we're doing something there when we're not. Karzai is furious with us and he's our own hand-picked choice to run the country.

If you honestly believe there is some plan to go back and correct the Afghanistan situation then you're more gullible than I am.
There are still 20,000 U.S. troops there, numbnuts. And the TV headlines that we keep seeing daily about renewed campaigns and the effective killings of Taliban leaders who prior escaped custody make your points utterly worthless. Too bad.
hahaha So the hard war isn't worth it? It's only worth it if the war is an easy one? Explain that to the World War vets. When the administration talks about the axis of evil and makes statements like our needing to take pre-emptive action against those who hate us and then waffles on those who represent the biggest concerns, THAT shows the true colors of the message.
I should have expected this kind of Red Herring from you. Unfortunately, trying to attribute your argument to me won’t work.

Your argument seems to be that we began with Iraq because it was an easier target with Iran. That’s true. So? Iran’s stronger military doesn’t obviate Iraq’s crimes.

More excuses. He's so wired that he couldn't anticipate what was obvious to the intelligence departments. Yeah, he was wired. Wired on what is the question...
Concession accepted. The amount of time Bush spent at his Texas ranch – or, for that matter, on appointments nationwide – has nothing to do with the effectiveness of intelligence screening.

It's the job of his administration to figure this out and give the President the correct information. This guy apparently needs to fire everyone because he's constantly missing information or getting the wrong information. For a smart guy he seems to be continually dealing with the wrong data or a lack of data. Again, you make more excuses for the guy.
Which is why there was an intelligence community overhaul, Captain Obvious.
Bullshit. NONE of that was stated as the reason for going into Iraq. Bush would have NEVER gotten support for such a tactic. He'd have been laughed out of office for trying that one.
VERY GOOD! Lesson #1: Politicians tell you what they want you to hear.

It’s also of interest that, like virtually everyone else on this board, you blithely ignore one of the vital lessons of 9/11 – that threats are no longer contingent on having many resources or large armies. If you can’t figure out why 9/11 made us worry more about “rogue” regimes like Iraq, you need to take another look at what happened that day in 2001.

You can say it 20 times, it won't change the fact that the information showed clearly that they have every opportunity to get off the ground. A SWAT team wasn't involved at any level of this and this administration did NOTHING to deal with the CLEAR information outlining exactly what happened. If this administration believed they couldn't get off the ground, well, guess what? THEY WERE DEAD WRONG AND NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR POOR JUDGEMENT!!!!
Just like FDR should have been kicked out for misjudging where the Japanese would strike?

Or what about Kerry? He tried to trash the intelligence budget, after all.
Excuse after excuse after excuse..... That's all you have to offer. Bush is a leader but he makes the wrong decisions. Oh, but others felt this way, oh but the data was incorrect, oh but there was too much to go though, but Bush is a leader! Bush is the man for the job! .....
I’m not the one crying that I don’t like Bush’s leadership. That’s your problem.

If you think the answer to this nation's troubles are a mixture of protectionism, unattainable social goals, and a series of doomed-to-fail efforts to engage the Europeans in another Grand Old Alliance, by all means, go right ahead and vote for Kerry, though.
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Post by Agrajag »

Axis Kast wrote:This from the man in favor of dynamism. :lol: Times change. So do perceptions. The key words in your statement: “more than a decade ago.


Hahahah. Again, excuses. The point is that exactly what he said then is exactly what has happened now. All that has changed is POLITICS. The situation in Iraq didn't not significantly change between then an the invasion.

I’m not the one who seems to think that all politicians are honest when they’re on the campaign stump.


That makes two of us. However, I am the one holding them to what they campaign on. All I see that Bush has done is to give the rich a tax break that he promised. I got my $300. Boy did that make a major difference in my life but meanwhile I have to worry about my children having to now be in debt to cover for it. Nice job.

Well of course Bush is going to claim he’ll make everybody feel fuzzy-wuzzy and good about their neighbor. It’s a requirement of candidacy.


What a surprise! Another excuse!

Not to mention your asinine attempt to make it sound as if Bush planned to make his presidency controversial.


I said this where?

You want to give people numbers, son, not hot air.


Excuse me but let's turn this around. Give me numbers showing that the election was not close. You know as well as I do that it's not easy to find 4-5 year old polls. They have no relevance today to keep active.

So we shouldn’t have aided Kuwait in 1991? We shouldn’t have put the breaks on Saddam’s plans – when he was clearly an insane individual out to expand at the expense of his neighbors? Wow. That would have been great for regional stability.


That's exactly what I'm saying. We went to war for oil. Plain and simple.

And that the oil hasn’t started to flow has no bearing on where it will go. The problem is that the pipelines still need to be adequately defended, not that the oil is going into Bush’s bank account, liar.


Uh, you actually need to state something to be lying about something. I never said Iraq oil money was going into Bush's bank account. The FACT is that the administration said Iraqi oil would be paying for this war. It didn't pay for the war and it's not paying for anything now.

First of all, an assassination tends to knock the wind out of any country. That’s kind of why we tried to kill people like Hitler and Castro when the possibilities arose, moron.


This is terrorism IDIOT. This isn't a country leader with autonomous power over a nation. Get a clue. Killing a cell kills the cell, not the issue.


Car bombings no longer occur in Israel because the IDF shot or jailed all those capable of making such bombs. The terrorists in Palestine are now reduced to suicide bombings.


Israel seems to COMPLETELY disagree with you:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... +Since.htm

There are still 20,000 U.S. troops there


And that's nowhere near the number needed to achieve the mission outlined when we went there. It may not bug you that we're now down to Kabul but it bothers me.

Your argument seems to be that we began with Iraq because it was an easier target with Iran. That’s true. So? Iran’s stronger military doesn’t obviate Iraq’s crimes.


We were in no danger from Iraq that necessitated our need to divert from the primary mission of dealing with Afghanistan. Iraq's crimes have nothing to do with 9/11, nor did they need our immediate attention. Now we're over-extended and if anything does crop up, we can't effectively deal with it. Nice job!

The amount of time Bush spent at his Texas ranch – or, for that matter, on appointments nationwide – has nothing to do with the effectiveness of intelligence screening.


History seems to disagree with you. You've already conceded that he couldn't keep up with the needle in that haystack. Perhaps if he spent more time actually on the job instead of out golfing, fishing and ranching (unless you're going to suggest those were all of National interest), he'd have had the time and ability to actually meet and listen to his advisors that were concerned about this issue.

Which is why there was an intelligence community overhaul, Captain Obvious.


Which your man was against and fought before waffling and flip-flopping on it when he realized it was political suicide to fight it.

VERY GOOD! Lesson #1: Politicians tell you what they want you to hear.


RIGHT! THANK YOU! You just made my point. The man LIED to everyone about why we were going into Iraq. THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Regarding terrorism, the key is to stop sticking our noses in everyone else's business. It is not our job to tell the world how to live. THAT will make the biggest impact on terrorism.

Just like FDR should have been kicked out for misjudging where the Japanese would strike?


More excuses! Yet another "The other guy did it so it's okay for my guy to do it." FDR also has come under extreme criticism for this failing. I can point you to many books on the subject including a large number of them that are the text books used to teach our children about the situation. 1941 was also a little different than 2001.

Or what about Kerry? He tried to trash the intelligence budget, after all.


Bzzzt, sorry, more talking points from the right.

I’m not the one crying that I don’t like Bush’s leadership. That’s your problem.


No, you're just the one saying he's a good leader but then making every excuse under the sun for his endless failures and lies.

On your last point, I'm voting for Kerry because Bush has failed and doesn't deserve another term. I'd vote for just about anyone right now other than this guy. And just in case you get confused, I'm not a Democrat. I've voted Republican as often as I've voted Democrat and, for that matter, Independent. I'm voting on the RECORD, not for a party.
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Post by Coyote »

Agrajag wrote: That's exactly what I'm saying. We went to war for oil. Plain and simple.
You keep saying this like it's a bad thing.

But seriously--- since it seems you only came here to mouth off, let's try this... why should I vote for Kerry other than "he's not George Bush"?

I don't like GW but I have been given absolutely no solid reason to vote for Kerry either. What really makes him so special that I or anyone else should cast a vote for the guy and be able to sleep at night? What makes him not "the lesser of two evils" but rather a man truly worthy of leadership?

What are the guys plans and positions?
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Post by Ender »

Coyote wrote:
Agrajag wrote: That's exactly what I'm saying. We went to war for oil. Plain and simple.
You keep saying this like it's a bad thing.

But seriously--- since it seems you only came here to mouth off, let's try this... why should I vote for Kerry other than "he's not George Bush"?

I don't like GW but I have been given absolutely no solid reason to vote for Kerry either. What really makes him so special that I or anyone else should cast a vote for the guy and be able to sleep at night? What makes him not "the lesser of two evils" but rather a man truly worthy of leadership?

What are the guys plans and positions?
Basically the same questions I asked in the threads I just started. Notice the lack of serious response to Kerry, and the lack of response PERIOD to bush.
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Post by Coyote »

Ender wrote:...Basically the same questions I asked in the threads I just started. Notice the lack of serious response to Kerry, and the lack of response PERIOD to bush.
Yeah, I noticed this after I'd posted... and ironic considering that the title of this piece o' work is "A Case for Kerry". I still don't see it.

Maybe I should cull it down-- away from the intangible and into something with identifiable paramaters: I think the War on Terror is a good thing and we have needed to face this elephant for a long time. I admit it may mean looking at things we have done in the world that makes us into a target, but I refuse to believe this is all America's fault, too.

I also think that the War in Iraq is not necessarily a bad thing, but the timing, the way it was conducted and the poor post-war planning has proven to be problematic. So now I'm over here and the way things are sounding, I could very easily be facing another deployment within 5 years if not sooner. Things here are nowhere near as bad as the media puts it, I've mentioned that before, but I also recognize that things could, potentially, be a lot better too.

So I need to know why I should have faith in Kerry to handle all this as it unfolds. To talk about whether the war was just or not is rapidly moving into the context of the Historians. What are we going to do about it now that it is in our laps is the more appropriate question.

Who will be Kerry's advisors? Will they be adequately schooled in Middle Eastern history, politics, culture, and the goals of Arab leaders and the public to address the issues? Does Kerry or Edwards or any of their hangers-on that will be likely candidates for Cabinet posts adequately comprehend the mindset behind the Jihadist movement?

Most of Bush's advisors are Soviet-oriented Cold War specialists-- ill-suited to comprehend the motives and movements of the Jihadis. But this does not automatically mean that Kerry's picks will be any better suited.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Post by Agrajag »

Coyote wrote:
Agrajag wrote:You keep saying this like it's a bad thing.
I highly suspect if you polled Americans and said, "Is going to war for oil a bad thing", the Yes votes would rather dwarf the No's.
why should I vote for Kerry other than "he's not George Bush"?
I don't like GW but I have been given absolutely no solid reason to vote for Kerry either. What really makes him so special that I or anyone else should cast a vote for the guy and be able to sleep at night? What makes him not "the lesser of two evils" but rather a man truly worthy of leadership?
In my book he may very well be the lesser of two evils. I am not a Democrat. I am not a Kerry fan. I am making a case for voting for Kerry very much based on Bush having failed so miserably. The alternative to Kerry is 4 more years of Bush and a Bush that doesn't have to cater to anyone in order to assure any further terms in office. THAT scares the HELL out of me.

Contrary to bullshit spin, the economy is not doing well. It's up one day it's in the tank the next. FEW people are better off today than they were 4 years ago. Seniors are in major trouble. Healthcare is completely a mess and we're in a war that a majority of Americans now say they don't think was worth it and that number is growing daily.

I want someone in office who is going to attempt to curtail the corporate tax loopholes and get them to pay their fair share. Kerry is for that. I want someone in there who will try to impact the offshoring problem. Kerry is for that. I want someone in there that agrees that the Iraq situation IS a mess and needs changing. Kerry has that potential (frankly I don't believe ANYONE can solve it but clearly this path isn't working).

I love his concept for healthcare where we'll re-insure the healthcare companies will be covered for catastrophic coverage. That WILL save us money. My healthcare is now $850 a MONTH with a $30 co-pay and with some nasty limits, especially on prescription drugs. Both my wife and I had our companies DROP their healthcare because THEY couldn't afford it any longer and these are major companies.

As I've said, is Kerry the perfect candidate? HARDLY. He doesn't have all the answers but he's going to bring a different tact to the office and right now, I'll take that risk over what is a KNOWN entity in Bush. To suggest that Bush is a known entity and that's GOOD is a mystery to me. I see nothing good in ANYTHING the guy has done. Not a single solitary thing.

Even his own party now thinks he's lying to the people. This administration has to end and putting in a career politician with an okay record sounds like a major improvement to me over a guy who failed at most everything he ever tried. I'm also a veteran and I don't go for this disappearance in Alabama crap. That DOES resonate with me. The guy is out for himself, period. Kerry MAY be out for himself but somehow his choices seem to include others along the way.
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Post by Knife »

Agrajag wrote:
I highly suspect if you polled Americans and said, "Is going to war for oil a bad thing", the Yes votes would rather dwarf the No's.
I'll grant you that most would knee jerk a no. Then ask them about the price they're paying for gas, and you'll get a whole new answer.
In my book he may very well be the lesser of two evils. I am not a Democrat. I am not a Kerry fan. I am making a case for voting for Kerry very much based on Bush having failed so miserably. The alternative to Kerry is 4 more years of Bush and a Bush that doesn't have to cater to anyone in order to assure any further terms in office. THAT scares the HELL out of me.
After reading the thread, you've really not made any argument other than 'he's not Bush'. I'm not really hot on Bush either but...

Note, I'd prefer a decent choice, but.....
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Coyote »

Agrajag wrote:
Coyote wrote:
Agrajag wrote:You keep saying this like it's a bad thing.
I highly suspect if you polled Americans and said, "Is going to war for oil a bad thing", the Yes votes would rather dwarf the No's.

Probably true, but does that make it right? People forget that oil is the one irrefutable and undeniable lynchpin upon which the economy of this entire planet rests. It will stay that way until we all become truly dedicated to alternate fuel sources. Until that day comes, we have to deal with the beast as it is.

And oil runs everything. Even the hospitals and transportation networks of the most poor, unfortunate third world backwaters needs that precious black goo. It is not just Western greed that flourishes in oil-- even the people of color around this planet rely on this stuff to keep them from a stone age existence.

In my book he may very well be the lesser of two evils. I am not a Democrat. I am not a Kerry fan. I am making a case for voting for Kerry very much based on Bush having failed so miserably. The alternative to Kerry is 4 more years of Bush and a Bush that doesn't have to cater to anyone in order to assure any further terms in office. THAT scares the HELL out of me.
So in other words, your argument rests on "He's not George".

I want someone in office who is going to attempt to curtail the corporate tax loopholes and get them to pay their fair share. Kerry is for that. I want someone in there who will try to impact the offshoring problem. Kerry is for that. I want someone in there that agrees that the Iraq situation IS a mess and needs changing. Kerry has that potential (frankly I don't believe ANYONE can solve it but clearly this path isn't working).
Kerry may be for these things but what is his realistic plan for reaching these goals? I'm for the idea of peace in the Middle East and a group hug with the European Drum Circle but until I have a solid plan to achieve these things, it remains just talk-- which is cheap.

I love his concept for healthcare where we'll re-insure the healthcare companies will be covered for catastrophic coverage. That WILL save us money...
Please explain what his plan is in this regard, I am interested in what his plan is regarding health care, which I agree is screwed ten ways from Tuesday in the US.
... Kerry MAY be out for himself but somehow his choices seem to include others along the way.
But what if those others are just the usual band of self-interest and lobbyist groups that just happen to be from the other side of the political spectrum? Then we have merely swapped one problem for another, and no one is better off.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Post by Agrajag »

Knife wrote:I'll grant you that most would knee jerk a no. Then ask them about the price they're paying for gas, and you'll get a whole new answer.
That has nothing to do with war. No matter how you spin it, if the topic of war is raised to deal with the cost of a gallon of gas, people will not be for that. No one will send their kids to die in order to pay less for oil.
After reading the thread, you've really not made any argument other than 'he's not Bush'. I'm not really hot on Bush either but...
Put it this way, I'm far more concerned about what Bush has already done and 4 more years of his "leadership" without having to worry about re-election scares the hell out of me. What he did to already, when having to worry about it, was too much in my book. Without that concern? No way.

So, given the choice between an evil I know and another candidate who has not proven to be evil even if he hasn't proven to be perfect, I'll vote for the challenger every time there.

What I do NOT buy is Cheney's view that Kerry in the White House would directly tie to us being attacked. It's garbage. How would he do worse? Is anyone actually going to try and suggest that terrorists will feel more compelled to attack us with Kerry in office? Give me a break. They despise Bush. Where were the beheadings in 1991??? Where were all the kidnappings then? Face it. The dial of terrorism has been turned UP since Bush invaded. It has not gone down. In addition, it's also ludicrous to assume that if anyone but Bush was in office and we were attacked, that measures wouldn't have been taken to step up our security. It would be suicide to not have done so.

We responded, measurably, to each attack on us. There is NO reason to believe that when 9/11 happened that Gore or anyone else wouldn't have gone after Bin Laden at that point and in a measure similar to what we did do. What would NOT have happened is the invasion of Iraq and now, with the benefit of distance and time to consider it fully, the majority of Americans, with more joining every day, feel the price wasn't worth it.

I have absolutely NO doubt in my mind that if Bush is re-elected, Iraq will just continue to destroy his term until the bitter end of it. I already have fears that he's created a no-win situation as it is.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the "We're turning the corner" argument. That's the argument of someone who hasn't succeeded yet. How many agencies, experts and other have to come forward to say things are not as Bush says they are before people get it?
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Post by Agrajag »

Coyote wrote:Probably true, but does that make it right? People forget that oil is the one irrefutable and undeniable lynchpin upon which the economy of this entire planet rests. It will stay that way until we all become truly dedicated to alternate fuel sources. Until that day comes, we have to deal with the beast as it is.
That does not excuse invading a foreign country. We would not accept another country coming here because they need some resource we have and neither will the people of any other country accept that action from us.
So in other words, your argument rests on "He's not George".
I would say it's more like "He hasn't proven to be a failure yet. Bush, in my view, has. Failure of this magnitude does not warrant a second term to get it right. As you've all seen, 9 out of 10 people now say that if Bush gets a second term, they want it to be run differently. 4 out of 10 say that want complete change. It boggles my mind that ANY of those people actually think this guy will, without the pressure of re-election to worry about, do ANYTHING differently except to provide more favors and be more blatant about his actions.
Kerry may be for these things but what is his realistic plan for reaching these goals?
I'd rather have someone in there who is for those goals and trying to attain them than having someone in there who is steadfastly against them.
it remains just talk-- which is cheap.
Unfortunately, failure of Bush's type is not cheap.
Please explain what his plan is in this regard, I am interested in what his plan is regarding health care, which I agree is screwed ten ways from Tuesday in the US.
I'm the first to admit that I'm not an expert on this but here's how I understand it. From my own research, health insurance providers claim that the biggest cost they have deals with the unexpected catastrophic incidents that crop up and they're not talking about things like most surgery's and such. They're talking about multi-million dollar events that have to be covered by the rest of us. Their own report on this suggests that if they could just get away from those costs, they could reduce health care costs across the board by up to 50% (not sure I believe them but that's what I saw).

Kerry plans to essentially underwrite the health insurance providers for any losses due to these specific incidents BUT with the caveat that all such benefits must be immediately passed on to the insured as direct savings on their plans. He plans to pay for it by repealing the tax cut for the upper 2% who, frankly, didn't need that cut in the first place and, having gotten it, once again proved that Reagan's "trickle down economy" does not work. I liked Reagan, but not that little concept. <grin>
But what if those others are just the usual band of self-interest and lobbyist groups that just happen to be from the other side of the political spectrum? Then we have merely swapped one problem for another, and no one is better off.
Then he won't get re-elected either as he'll have not held up his end. However, I don't see how it's wrong to vote for Kerry on the POTENTIAL that me MAY give us business as usual over someone we already KNOW is giving us exactly that and, in my view, worse. My biggest concern about Kerry is that, once in office, he'll be your standard arrogant type who loves the priviledge that comes with all of it. However, right now we're getting that so it won't be worse and we have the potential for improvement. What we have in office right now is someone who did NOT fulfill his obligation to the military, who did not successfully run ANY company, whose claim to fame is having been the governor in a state known for having one of the weakest governors in the union and who has continued to piss off just about everyone he comes in contact with.

Our so-called coalition of the willing (there's another joke) now includes HALF the countries it did when we invaded and three-quarters of those, in the first place, were already a joke. How long are we going to stand around in a continually emptying room and claim the party is going along great?
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Post by Agrajag »

Interesting news. Seems Bush's own home town paper, who supported him in 2000, just came out as supporting Kerry! The party just keeps getting smaller and more select.

http://www.iconoclast-texas.com/Columns ... rial39.htm

Kerry Will Restore
American Dignity
2004 Iconoclast Presidential Endorsement

Few Americans would have voted for George W. Bush four years ago if he had promised that, as President, he would:
• Empty the Social Security trust fund by $507 billion to help offset fiscal irresponsibility and at the same time slash Social Security benefits.
• Cut Medicare by 17 percent and reduce veterans’ benefits and military pay.
• Eliminate overtime pay for millions of Americans and raise oil prices by 50 percent.
• Give tax cuts to businesses that sent American jobs overseas, and, in fact, by policy encourage their departure.
• Give away billions of tax dollars in government contracts without competitive bids.
• Involve this country in a deadly and highly questionable war, and
• Take a budget surplus and turn it into the worst deficit in the history of the United States, creating a debt in just four years that will take generations to repay.
These were elements of a hidden agenda that surfaced only after he took office.
The publishers of The Iconoclast endorsed Bush four years ago, based on the things he promised, not on this smoke-screened agenda.
Today, we are endorsing his opponent, John Kerry, based not only on the things that Bush has delivered, but also on the vision of a return to normality that Kerry says our country needs.
Four items trouble us the most about the Bush administration: his initiatives to disable the Social Security system, the deteriorating state of the American economy, a dangerous shift away from the basic freedoms established by our founding fathers, and his continuous mistakes regarding terrorism and Iraq.
President Bush has announced plans to change the Social Security system as we know it by privatizing it, which when considering all the tangents related to such a change, would put the entire economy in a dramatic tailspin.
The Social Security Trust Fund actually lends money to the rest of the government in exchange for government bonds, which is how the system must work by law, but how do you later repay Social Security while you are running a huge deficit? It’s impossible, without raising taxes sometime in the future or becoming fiscally responsible now. Social Security money is being used to escalate our deficit and, at the same time, mask a much larger government deficit, instead of paying down the national debt, which would be a proper use, to guarantee a future gain.
Privatization is problematic in that it would subject Social Security to the ups, downs, and outright crashes of the Stock Market. It would take millions in brokerage fees and commissions out of the system, and, unless we have assurance that the Ivan Boeskys and Ken Lays of the world will be caught and punished as a deterrent, subject both the Market and the Social Security Fund to fraud and market manipulation, not to mention devastate and ruin multitudes of American families that would find their lives lost to starvation, shame, and isolation.
Kerry wants to keep Social Security, which each of us already owns. He says that the program is manageable, since it is projected to be solvent through 2042, with use of its trust funds. This would give ample time to strengthen the economy, reduce the budget deficit the Bush administration has created, and, therefore, bolster the program as needed to fit ever-changing demographics.
Our senior citizens depend upon Social Security. Bush’s answer is radical and uncalled for, and would result in chaos as Americans have never experienced. Do we really want to risk the future of Social Security on Bush by spinning the wheel of uncertainty?
In those dark hours after the World Trade Center attacks, Americans rallied together with a new sense of patriotism. We were ready to follow Bush’s lead through any travail.
He let us down.
When he finally emerged from his hide-outs on remote military bases well after the first crucial hours following the attack, he gave sound-bytes instead of solutions.
He did not trust us to be ready to sacrifice, build up our public and private security infrastructure, or cut down on our energy use to put economic pressure on the enemy in all the nations where he hides. He merely told us to shop, spend, and pretend nothing was wrong.
Rather than using the billions of dollars expended on the invasion of Iraq to shore up our boundaries and go after Osama bin Laden and the Saudi Arabian terrorists, the funds were used to initiate a war with what Bush called a more immediate menace, Saddam Hussein, in oil-rich Iraq. After all, Bush said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction trained on America. We believed him, just as we believed it when he reported that Iraq was the heart of terrorism. We trusted him.
The Iconoclast, the President’s hometown newspaper, took Bush on his word and editorialized in favor of the invasion. The newspaper’s publisher promoted Bush and the invasion of Iraq to Londoners in a BBC interview during the time that the administration was wooing the support of Prime Minister Tony Blair.
Again, he let us down.
We presumed the President had solid proof of the existence of these weapons, what and where they were, even as the search continued. Otherwise, our troops would be in much greater danger and the premise for a hurried-up invasion would be moot, allowing more time to solicit assistance from our allies.
Instead we were duped into following yet another privileged agenda.
Now he argues unconvincingly that Iraq was providing safe harbor to terrorists, his new key justification for the invasion. It is like arguing that America provided safe harbor to terrorists leading to 9/11.
Once and for all, George Bush was President of the United States on that day. No one else. He had been President nine months, he had been officially warned of just such an attack a full month before it happened. As President, ultimately he and only he was responsible for our failure to avert those attacks.
We should expect that a sitting President would vacation less, if at all, and instead tend to the business of running the country, especially if he is, as he likes to boast, a “wartime president.” America is in service 365 days a year. We don’t need a part-time President who does not show up for duty as Commander-In-Chief until he is forced to, and who is in a constant state of blameless denial when things don’t get done.
What has evolved from the virtual go-it-alone conquest of Iraq is more gruesome than a stain on a White House intern’s dress. America’s reputation and influence in the world has diminished, leaving us with brute force as our most persuasive voice.
Iraq is now a quagmire: no WMDs, no substantive link between Saddam and Osama, and no workable plan for the withdrawal of our troops. We are asked to go along on faith. But remember, blind patriotism can be a dangerous thing and “spin” will not bring back to life a dead soldier; certainly not a thousand of them.
Kerry has remained true to his vote granting the President the authority to use the threat of war to intimidate Saddam Hussein into allowing weapons inspections. He believes President Bush rushed into war before the inspectors finished their jobs.
Kerry also voted against President Bush’s $87 billion for troop funding because the bill promoted poor policy in Iraq, privileged Halliburton and other corporate friends of the Bush administration to profiteer from the war, and forced debt upon future generations of Americans.
Kerry’s four-point plan for Iraq is realistic, wise, strong, and correct. With the help from our European and Middle Eastern allies, his plan is to train Iraqi security forces, involve Iraqis in their rebuilding and constitution-writing processes, forgive Iraq’s multi-billion dollar debts, and convene a regional conference with Iraq’s neighbors in order to secure a pledge of respect for Iraq’s borders and non-interference in Iraq’s internal affairs.
The publishers of the Iconoclast differ with Bush on other issues, including the denial of stem cell research, shortchanging veterans’ entitlements, cutting school programs and grants, dictating what our children learn through a thought-controlling “test” from Washington rather than allowing local school boards and parents to decide how young people should be taught, ignoring the environment, and creating extraneous language in the Patriot Act that removes some of the very freedoms that our founding fathers and generations of soldiers fought so hard to preserve.
We are concerned about the vast exportation of jobs to other countries, due in large part to policies carried out by Bush appointees. Funds previously geared at retention of small companies are being given to larger concerns, such as Halliburton — companies with strong ties to oil and gas. Job training has been cut every year that Bush has resided at the White House.
Then there is his resolve to inadequately finance Homeland Security and to cut the Community Oriented Policing Program (COPS) by 94 percent, to reduce money for rural development, to slash appropriations for the Small Business Administration, and to under-fund veterans’ programs.
Likewise troubling is that President Bush fought against the creation of the 9/11 Commission and is yet to embrace its recommendations.
Vice President Cheney’s Halliburton has been awarded multi-billion-dollar contracts without undergoing any meaningful bid process — an enormous conflict of interest — plus the company has been significantly raiding the funds of Export-Import Bank of America, reducing investment that could have gone toward small business trade.
When examined based on all the facts, Kerry’s voting record is enviable and echoes that of many Bush allies who are aghast at how the Bush administration has destroyed the American economy. Compared to Bush on economic issues, Kerry would be an arch-conservative, providing for Americans first. He has what it takes to right our wronged economy.
The re-election of George W. Bush would be a mandate to continue on our present course of chaos. We cannot afford to double the debt that we already have. We need to be moving in the opposite direction.
John Kerry has 30 years of experience looking out for the American people and can navigate our country back to prosperity and re-instill in America the dignity she so craves and deserves. He has served us well as a highly decorated Vietnam veteran and has had a successful career as a district attorney, lieutenant governor, and senator.
Kerry has a positive vision for America, plus the proven intelligence, good sense, and guts to make it happen.
That’s why The Iconoclast urges Texans not to rate the candidate by his hometown or even his political party, but instead by where he intends to take the country.
The Iconoclast wholeheartedly endorses John Kerry.
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Post by Edi »

Axis Kast wrote:You’re splitting proverbial hairs here to grasp a victory based entirely on your own subjective analysis, moron. All politicians will tell you they intend to unite the electorate. All politicians will tell you they will be an effective force for positive change. It goes with the territory of seeking office. You might as well roundly condemn all politicians as liars and stop voting at all because they never admit that what they’re really after is money, power, or influence. Indicting Bush because he is not a “uniter” is like calling somebody a criminal because they’ve J-walked. Everybody does it, and it has no standing on their actual honesty.
The point I'mmaking is that you tried to distort the facts when responding to Agrajag, and that whether or not Bush claimed to be a uniter is completely irrelevant when I call him a liar. Yes, all politicians pander to the people, but Bush has lied about a whole host of other things, most notably about Iraq. So he is objectively a liar even when we disregard everything he said about being a uniter and leave that part out of the consideration altogether.
Axis Kast wrote:
Edi wrote:
Withering only in your delusions, Kast. I'd call it withering if there were half the resources being unsuccessfully used in Iraq, and the campaign against them was withering before Bush's Iraq invasion, but since then the operations against the Taliban have been few, far between and relatively ineffective compared to what they were before.
Which is why we just lopped off the head of their operations, eh? You make this too easy.
Too easy? No, I don't think so. Your problem is a delusional view of reality. You would actually be right, IF your snake's head analogy was accurate. Unfortunately, it is not. A more accurate analogy would be that of the Lernaean Hydra. It's a creature of Greek mythology that had several heads and when you lopped one off, it grew two more in the lost head's place. This is what has been happening in Afghanistan and what is happening in Iraq. The US lops off a few heads and soon faces twice as many, because it has not bothered to follow through and cauterize the stumps, which was the only way of making sure the hydra heads stayed dead.
Axis Kast wrote:
Edi wrote: You mean Iraq WAS the most secular country in the Middle East after Turkey and Israel. Right now it's a shithole where fundamentalists run riot and the populace calls for a government according to Islamic principles.
The influence of years of secular existence don’t fall by the wayside because the imposing force of that influence is gone. Iraqis still have vastly different expectations and opinions regarding “effective” government than, say, Saudis.
Red herring. They are still calling for a non-secular government, and your handwaving about Saudi Arabia has no relevancy at all here. Even if their preferred Islamic government wouldn't be as ass-backwards as the one the Saudis have, it would still be non-secular.

Axis Kast wrote:We’ve already been down this road before. I disagree that Iraq had nothing to do with the War on Terror.
Yes, you disagree, and you have exactly zero evidence to back your views up, so your uninformed, delusional opinion is completely worthless in that regard.
Axis Kast wrote:
Edi wrote:Outright lie. AQ had committed the USS Cole bombing in Yemen, bombed two US embassies, and conducted other terrorist attacks against US and US interests and it was known that these were AQ strikes, so your assertion that they did not stand out is blatantly false.
And it wasn’t anticipated that they could ever effect an attack using airplanes as suicide weapons. AQ was considered a completely external threat.
The August 2001 report from US intelligence agencies that outlined the possibility of AQ hijacking operations inside the US should have clued intel people into this, because previous (foiled) AQ plans for using planes as suicide missiles were known from years earlier. Anybody who did not consider that a possibility and worked on intel related to the report was guilty of at least negligence, if not outright incompetence.
Axis Kast wrote:
Edi wrote: Due to negligence. The subject of planes being used as missiles had been brought up years earlier when plans for such usage were uncovered in the Philippines. The reports were later forgotten or ignored.
Negligence that nobody could have known to correct before 9/11. The lone cries of a few whistle-blowers going against convention weren’t going to cut it.
You're just plain wrong. When you have knowledge of previously uncovered and foiled, detailed plans of a terrorist operation by an organization known to be extremely hostile to your nation, known to be fanatically religious and known to have no aversion for either suicide attacks or huge civilian death tolls, anybody who ignores or neglects to take into account the possibility that they might try that foiled plan again somewhere else at some later date is guilty of gross incompetence, and if somebody brings up the possibility and is ignored, the superiors who ignored him can rightly be held responsible for criminal negligence and incometence.

I'm not a terrorism expert who makes a living out studying AQ or other such terror organizations, yet the possibility of using planes as missiles occurred to me more than ten years ago. A simple mind game of "what if", as I wondered how much destruction it would cause if a plance were crashed to a densely populated area, or a large building. If your target is heavily protected from ground-based attacks, it is not such a leap to consider attacking from the air, especially if it's never been done for real before. Especially if airport security measures are as laughable as they were in the US, something that has astounded me for the past several years, long before 9/11. That event was a complete security clusterfuck on every level that woulf have been preventable if not for inexcusable incompetence.

Edi
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
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