"We were tricked into supporting this war."

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-10-11 06:12pm

Sokartawi wrote:The United States would like more, and is producing more. Check.

*smack* Demonstratably false. No new nuclear weapons are being produced. the B61-11 is a modification of an existing design, and will be produced by modifying devices that are currently in existance. All chemical and biological weapons controlled by the US are in the process of being destroyed, if they haven't finished already.

Post by **weemadando** » 2004-10-12 05:35am

Stormbringer wrote:
The United States has used WMD in the past, and likes them. Check.
And never mind that despite the glibness of both sides the uses were far different. The US used them to bring an end to a just war and in doing so saved hundred of thousands, if not millions, of lives. Saddam Hussien used them on people for no better reason than they opposed him.

The US also tested biological and chemical agents on its own citizens without their knowledge or consent. Notice I said CITIZENS not soldiers as these were tests on civilian populations.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-12 09:55am

Stormbringer wrote:
The United States has used WMD in the past, and likes them. Check.
And never mind that despite the glibness of both sides the uses were far different. The US used them to bring an end to a just war and in doing so saved hundred of thousands, if not millions, of lives.

Do we really have to go into this "prove that they couldn't have waited more than 3 days to drop the second one" argument? And on the subject of a "just war" being used to justify the annihilation of civilians, what do you think the Muslim people think of Osama's war against US interference in the Middle East?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-10-12 11:25am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
The United States has used WMD in the past, and likes them. Check.
And never mind that despite the glibness of both sides the uses were far different. The US used them to bring an end to a just war and in doing so saved hundred of thousands, if not millions, of lives.
Do we really have to go into this "prove that they couldn't have waited more than 3 days to drop the second one" argument? And on the subject of a "just war" being used to justify the annihilation of civilians, what do you think the Muslim people think of Osama's war against US interference in the Middle East?

Naturally, it's different when our civilians are being killed.

Master Arachnos · Post by **Master Arachnos** » 2004-10-12 11:43am

For those people that supported the war, ( I was'nt for or particluarly against the war, altho I would be for a war against terror, which is something different).

If you are for the war because of WMD, how do you feel about being duped by your own governments (UK & US)??

If you were for the war because Saddam was a brutal dictator, how do you feel about the fact that he was put in power due to the machinations of the UK & US governments, and that up til 15 years ago he was still being supported by said governments as a check against Iran??

This is why I will not be voting labour (Tony Blair) in the next UK elections, well, it's one of the bigger reasons why I wont be....

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-12 12:27pm

Sokartawi wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:Saddam is bad. Check.
Saddam has used WMD in the past, and likes them. Check.
Saddam would like more. Check.
The United States is bad. Check.
The United States has used WMD in the past, and likes them. Check.
The United States would like more, and is producing more. Check.

1.) By who's standards, you insufferable sophist? Iran's?

2.) First part is true, second part is not. Estimates of casualties for an invasion of Japan ran up to 4 million Japanese casualties in the first week. Their culture and country would cease to exist by the time it was over. The atomic bomb drops were the best available option to force surrender.

3.) Bull and shit. Know what you're talking about before you shoot your mouth off. By all means, point out this new production of WMDs or shove it up your ass.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-12 01:48pm

Rogue 9 wrote: 1.) By who's standards, you insufferable sophist? Iran's?

he probably meant the us government. if i´m right, then by the standards of the vast majority of the human race.

of course this is a completely subjective question, but so is the question about the good- or badness of iran.

one could just as well ask by which standerds is iran bad?

2.) First part is true, second part is not.

the second part of his statement is "and likes them"
so if that´s not true, why doesn´t the us destroy their nuclear arsenal? of course the us likes it´s nukes.

3.) Bull and shit. Know what you're talking about before you shoot your mouth off. By all means, point out this new production of WMDs or shove it up your ass.

actually he might not be correct with the new production but that doesn´t change anything about the point.
the making process of the WMD isn´t the bad thing.
the bad thing is having power over WMD.
iran wants to make new WMD whereas the US has already made them.
iran only wants to achieve the current status quo of the states.
so both countries have the intention of having nukes.
what´s the difference?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-12 01:56pm

There's a difference between liking a thing and realizing its utility. Frankly, having everyone scared shitless by the idea of what the U.S. would do if we were ever nuked has great usefulness in keeping anyone from ever trying to nuke us. Doesn't mean we have to like the idea of millions of people going up in radioactive flames, but the existence of nukes makes General Lee's quote all the more applicable.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-12 02:06pm

Rogue 9 wrote:There's a difference between liking a thing and realizing its utility. Frankly, having everyone scared shitless by the idea of what the U.S. would do if we were ever nuked has great usefulness in keeping anyone from ever trying to nuke us. Doesn't mean we have to like the idea of millions of people going up in radioactive flames, but the existence of nukes makes General Lee's quote all the more applicable.

oh, come on, that´s just a strawman.
i never said that the us likes nuclear warfare.
in order to like nukes you don´t have to like nuking someone.
as you said the primary function of nukes is the scare effect. and you can like something for having a scare effect.
liking nukes does not equal liking nuclear destruction.

i´m quite sure that not even iran likes nuclear destruction. they want nukes for the exact same reason as the US, pakistan or israel.
they want them to be able to tell everybody who threatens their souverenity to fuck off.