Bush out of office.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I say no, because nothing bad has happened so far. Where is all the religous persecution? Where are all the political prisoners? The recession started during the Clinton years, nothing was done about it because Congress wouldn't let him do anything, and so what if he's an idiot? He has advisors to tell him what not to do, or inform him when Spongebob Squarepants is on.

As for this war on Iraq, what's the worst that could happen, realistically? Hussein's army is smaller than it was during the Gulf War, and back then, we still defeated him with international help.

Besides, it's Ashcroft that propsed his "inernment camps", he's the that should go.

Who would you want in office?

[Larz]

... and I suppose that you'd want someone like Carter or Clinton back in the white house?... if so, then I have some concrete shoes for you to take long walks with on short piers...

[Knife]

Yes I do believe that is the third, But the free speech issue is the first.

Its the fourth.

So far, all I've heard is scare mongering on both sides. He's going to do this, he's going to do that, blah, blah, blah. Holding Padilla has its judicial presedents, the bombing in Yeman is legal, the war on Iraq is at least 5 years late, and the patriot act will probably not hold up in court when someone gets charge with it.

I will agree with you that Ashcroft needs to go, and historicly AG's change quite often in administrations, AG Reno was an exception too this. I did vote for Bush two years ago, but I did so hesitenly and only because he wasn't Gore. If there was a better choise, I would have made it but that being said, I do like most (not all) of the things that Bush has done and or tried to do durring his administration.

With all the shouts of facism, police state, and other garbage out there I still don't see any of my rights being violated. I haven't seen any of the things some people talk about.

[Enlightenment]

Where are all the political prisoners?

Last I heard Padilla was in Norfolk. As for the rest of them, no one knows because the INS has been extremely reluctant to cough up how many people they're holding on immigration violations, who they are, and where they're being kept.

The recession started during the Clinton years, nothing was done about it because Congress wouldn't let him do anything,

Blaming politicians for economic cycles is just silly. Barring extremely stupid moves by governments (e.g. revoking private property or allowing underenforcement of market rules to undermine confidence in the stock markets) economic cycles will do as they damn well please regardless of who is in office.

As for this war on Iraq, what's the worst that could happen, realistically?

Iraq launches bio or chemical weapons at Israel. Israel nukes Iraq. Fallout drifts over the rest of the ME and prompts everyone else in the region to drop their WMD on Israel. Expect a few million dead on all sides and oil prices driven so high that the global economy backslides into a severe recession or even a depression.

Who would you want in office?

Someone who's at least able to eat a pretzel without choking on it.

[Admiral Piett]

As for this war on Iraq, what's the worst that could happen, realistically? Hussein's army is smaller than it was during the Gulf War, and back then, we still defeated him with international help.

The Iraquis could entrench in the cities and send a couple of thousands of american soldiers back at home in body bags.

[Sea Skimmer]

I want him in charge. The alternative was far far worse, especially for those of you who dislike religious zealots.

[Stormbringer]

I want him in charge. The alternative was far far worse, especially for those of you who dislike religious zealots.

Who? Saddam or Bush?

[Kelly Antilles]

You know what would be the best solution? Completely restructure our government. It sucks. It was ok, back when our forefathers started it, but it doesn't work now. We need a restructure, like we do to every other fucking country.

[Sea Skimmer]

I want him in charge. The alternative was far far worse, especially for those of you who dislike religious zealots.

Who? Saddam or Bush?

I want Bush as preisdent, Gore and Liberman where always more freedoom grabbing then Bush is now, and that was in peace time. Liberman was a hard core fundie, far more so then Bush and Cheney combind, really neither is a fundie at all.

[Pu-239]

The final solution- BDZ Earth.

[Stormbringer]

I want him in charge. The alternative was far far worse, especially for those of you who dislike religious zealots.

Who? Saddam or Bush?

I want Bush as preisdent, Gore and Liberman where always more freedoom grabbing then Bush is now, and that was in peace time. Liberman was a hard core fundie, far more so then Bush and Cheney combind, really neither is a fundie at all.

If there's anyone less than Bush, it's Gore. He'd have fucked this up worse than Bush has.

And Bush isn't a fundy but he's close. And he's crawled into bed with plenty of those that are. Look at Ashcroft and some of the other he's got around him. You judge a man by the comany he keeps.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wrong. He even said it in his Satate of the Union address last year: "You are either with America, or you are with the terrorists." By his logic, if you are not allied with America, you are inherently allied with the terrorists. Therefore, the war against terrorists (in his mind) is war against everyone that is not allied with America.

Wrong. You are a blithering idiot. Propoganda means nothing. Do we believe the Catholic Church's propoganda or that of the Communists? The evidence says we've only assualted the Afghan support structure for the Al Queada terrorist network and wish to disarm Iraq by force if it doesn't comply to coercive and comprehensive arms inspections.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You know what would be the best solution? Completely restructure our government. It sucks. It was ok, back when our forefathers started it, but it doesn't work now. We need a restructure, like we do to every other fucking country.

A even slight suggestion on how to do that would be nice. Attacks without alternatives strike hollow when it comes to politics. Think that Japan and Western Europe aren't better off for American reconstruction? You think that the nations we conducted proxy wars in during the Cold War would be so much better off under the Communists? It's one things to dither about things and how they could be better, its quite another to actually show how could they could be better.

You're delusional if you don't think things were political and selfish then as well. Alien and Sedition Act? America nearly became a police state there. Please, things have gotten better: the end and reparations for the genocide of the Native Americans, the abolishment of slavery and reparations thereof that contine to this day, tighter control on the states. Ever hear of Aaron Burr? Major politicans to not plot meglomaniacal schemes to divide up the country at will anymore. We're better now, trust me.

As Churchill said, it is the worst system, except for all the others (speaking of republican gov't/democracy).

[Guest]

You know what would be the best solution? Completely restructure our government. It sucks. It was ok, back when our forefathers started it, but it doesn't work now. We need a restructure, like we do to every other fucking country.

Oh... What a great idea. The United States has the most stable government in the world. Much of the restructuring that the US has done has been for the best anyways.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Besides, what escapes Kelly here is that there is a established method for governmental restructuring that has been invoked multiple times since the Constitution's ratification. We call it the Constitutional amendment, and since there's been no major push for it, that means there's not a large wish for one. This escapes most people under the Parliamentary system, that in the U.S., the list of rules for the government is liked and we keep it because we want to. We can change it with a built-in procedure. This European-Anglo opinion is bred in the disbelief that Americans could have views that seriously depart from their opinions. Which are superior, of course.

[Stormbringer]

You know what would be the best solution? Completely restructure our government. It sucks. It was ok, back when our forefathers started it, but it doesn't work now. We need a restructure, like we do to every other fucking country.

Oh... What a great idea. The United States has the most stable government in the world. Much of the restructuring that the US has done has been for the best anyways.

True, but you can't deny that American politics have been getting more and more corrupt. That' pork barreling and vote buying have become blatant facts of life. That no ordinary citizen can run and win any more.

America's politcal system is going down the crapper and picking up speed. We can no longer make a difference against the sheer weight of apathy dragging down the US political process.

[Stormbringer]

Besides, what escapes Kelly here is that there is a established method for governmental restructuring that has been invoked multiple times since the Constitution's ratification. We call it the Constitutional amendment, and since there's been no major push for it, that means there's not a large wish for one. This escapes most people under the Parliamentary system, that in the U.S., the list of rules for the government is liked and we keep it because we want to. We can change it with a built-in procedure. This European-Anglo opinion is bred in the disbelief that Americans could have views that seriously depart from their opinions. Which are superior, of course.

Except the system itself is rotten and we can't affect real change anymore. It's just the sheer fucking apathy of the average voter.

[Utsanomiko]

Political parties run against everything our forefathers intended for this nation. It's nothing more than an excuse for the bovine masses to turn politics into black/white fallacy popularity contests. When you're technically only given two options, you have to pick the lesser of two evils and deal with it. Here's a solution: Pick a form of government and stick with it! If the US wants to be an actual republic, it needs to do it intelligently. If it wants to be total democracy, it needs to put some serious attention towards educating the masses and stop spoon-feeding them everything.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Political parties run against everything our forefathers intended for this nation. It's nothing more than an excuse for the bovine masses to turn politics into black/white fallacy popularity contests. When you're technically only given two options, you have to pick the lesser of two evils and deal with it. Here's a solution: Pick a form of government and stick with it! If the US wants to be an actual republic, it needs to do it intelligently. If it wants to be total democracy, it needs to put some serious attention towards educating the masses and stop spoon-feeding them everything.

Exactly. Serious education is needed. Unfortunately, George Washington is the only politican who I can think of who said what you claim about political parties.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Besides, what escapes Kelly here is that there is a established method for governmental restructuring that has been invoked multiple times since the Constitution's ratification. We call it the Constitutional amendment, and since there's been no major push for it, that means there's not a large wish for one. This escapes most people under the Parliamentary system, that in the U.S., the list of rules for the government is liked and we keep it because we want to. We can change it with a built-in procedure. This European-Anglo opinion is bred in the disbelief that Americans could have views that seriously depart from their opinions. Which are superior, of course.

Except the system itself is rotten and we can't affect real change anymore. It's just the sheer fucking apathy of the average voter.

One word: Education.

I can only hope.

[Utsanomiko]

Education can't solve everything, though. So what if your average Joe Schmoe knows the platforms inside and out of all eleven potential candidates a year before the election, when the entire system is setup to favor and promote weasilly, spinless, frat-boy WASPs? Not to mention a Judicial system that almost always boils down to whomever has the most money to spend in the courtroom wins.

[Knife]

You know what would be the best solution? Completely restructure our government. It sucks. It was ok, back when our forefathers started it, but it doesn't work now. We need a restructure, like we do to every other fucking country.

Oh... What a great idea. The United States has the most stable government in the world. Much of the restructuring that the US has done has been for the best anyways.

True, but you can't deny that American politics have been getting more and more corrupt. That' pork barreling and vote buying have become blatant facts of life. That no ordinary citizen can run and win any more.

America's politcal system is going down the crapper and picking up speed. We can no longer make a difference against the sheer weight of apathy dragging down the US political process.

I will deny it, durring the civil war era it has been recorded that represenitives have actualy started fist fights in Congress. Political corruptions is not new, Rome knew it, Greece knew it, all goverments know it.

However, seeing that we had a MAJOR election scandal two years ago and neither the military or any other opposition force tried any sort of coup, I would say that our form of goverment is about as stable as one can get. Can you imagine what happened in Florida happening in say, China or Russia. The peaceful transition of power while hottly contested intellectualy was a testement to the stability of our form of goverment.

[Uraniun235]

Who would you want in office?

Someone who's at least able to eat a pretzel without choking on it.

If you can't offer a solution, shut the fuck up.

[Stormbringer]

I will deny it, durring the civil war era it has been recorded that represenitives have actualy started fist fights in Congress. Political corruptions is not new, Rome knew it, Greece knew it, all goverments know it.

I'm not denying we've had corruption. What I'm saying is that government as a whole wasn't corrupt. Now as it stands, Congress whores after cash and re-election rather than looking out for the country. Special interests and big donors own Congressmen and no cares.

The problem is not that there is corruption, it's that it has spread to the whole system. Are government is being paralyzed by it.

However, seeing that we had a MAJOR election scandal two years ago and neither the military or any other opposition force tried any sort of coup, I would say that our form of goverment is about as stable as one can get. Can you imagine what happened in Florida happening in say, China or Russia. The peaceful transition of power while hottly contested intellectualy was a testement to the stability of our form of goverment.

Our government is stable, I've never said otherwise. The problem is that it's rotting from the inside out. And unless a major shakeup occurs (and I hope one does) the system is going give some how.

[haas mark]

Wrong. He even said it in his Satate of the Union address last year: "You are either with America, or you are with the terrorists." By his logic, if you are not allied with America, you are inherently allied with the terrorists. Therefore, the war against terrorists (in his mind) is war against everyone that is not allied with America.

Wrong. You are a blithering idiot. Propoganda means nothing. Do we believe the Catholic Church's propoganda or that of the Communists? The evidence says we've only assualted the Afghan support structure for the Al Queada terrorist network and wish to disarm Iraq by force if it doesn't comply to coercive and comprehensive arms inspections.

This was resolved earlier.

And Kelly: Hit the nail on the head! ^_^