"Slow" sublight speeds for advanced starships?

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

The Silence and I wrote:That is of course logical, but requires newtonian maneuvering--I am hardly the first to point out no one in Star Wars uses that. I do not suggest that newtonian motion is a flawed model for Star Wars, but it is clear standard engine drives--including those on an ISD--operate on some different principle.
Not true, they do use newtonian drives. It's exactly how their ion engines are described to work. Hot exhuast shoots out one end at rediculous speeds and the ship goes in the other. That glow coming out that back of the Stardestroyers engines don't just make it look scary.

In fact, there is a good description of how the X-Wing, with all its swoop and swirl, manuevers, using a combination of thrusters and gyros in the first Incredible Cross Sections. All that is newtonian physics.


Like I said, it's a minor cavaet, because ships never do turnovers to brake in sci-fi movies and TV shows. Or very rarely, B5 did alot of that with Starfuries and the Whitestar.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14065
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Batman wrote: Modern jet aircraft don't have reverse thrusters, either.
And they don't eject relatavistic-streams of particles out their ass for propulsion - they float/propel themselves through a liquid medium. Not quite the same thing.
What Jean Paul quite correctly described are thrust reversers on the main engines, and I fail to see what's wrong with his idea that Wars uses particle shielding instead of material-based reversal mechanisms.
I've never heard of any such thing being remotely possible, much less any way it could be practical (to say nothing of what sort of strain it might put on the shields.)
The geometry of those reversers is certainly going to be interesting, because the rear profile the thrust needs to be directed around is a lot more massive than the engines of a jet airplane, but I see no flaw in the theory.
Or maybe they might simply use tractor beams or repulsors for straight-line deceleration when approaching a planet. Or use ion cannons (and possibly turbolasers in combat) as manuvering thrusters (given the huge-ass recoil they generate) Either of which is far simpler than what you are apparently proposing.
User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14065
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Praxis wrote: And yet when they approached the Death Star, the Rebel fleet didn't flip around and brake to stop their momentum (though they did flip around to avoid smacking in to the Death Star, their momentum didn't keep carrying them toward the Death Star until they fired the engines or anything).
That might be because X-wings not only have a little technology known as repulsorlifts (and the Death Star would be an adequate mass to "push" against), but they also have retro-thrusters (as per the OT:ICS) in the same location as their engines are.

And when the Imperial fleet shot around the moon and cut off the Rebel fleet, they stopped and just sat there, no spinning around to stop or anything.
Hello? They were well within range of the Sanctuary Moon AND the Death Star. Remember repulsorlifts and Tractor beams?
User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14065
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Praxis wrote: We don't know enough of how SW engines work.
This has to be the most ludicrous statement I have heard all weekend. How fucking difficult can it be to grasp the underlying concepts of a fucking reaction drive? You shoot something out of one end, and your object gets pushed in the opposite direction.
It's possible there are numerous small braking thrusters on the hull that don't eject as much visible glowies,
And if you're going to start claiming that nonsense, why not assume they use ion cannons to turn or slow the ship?
OR it's even possible that they can just flip a switch from "forward" to "reverse". Hey, who knows?
I love how you try to use an apparent "absence of knowledge" as an excuse to justify rampant and overly-complex speculation. :roll:
User avatar
McC
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 2775
Joined: 2004-01-11 02:47pm
Location: Southeastern MA, USA
Contact:

Post by McC »

Has anyone ever examined how much reaction mass a Star Destroyer would have to consume in order to accelerate at the observed levels? I guess we don't know how much a Star Destroyer masses to figure this out...or do we? In any case, it'd be interesting to see exactly how much fuel it takes up. We have nigh-canon diagrams of the internal structure of a Star Destroyer, so we know that its entire internal volume can't be fuel. If the numbers don't add up, there might just be another mechanism aside from reaction drives at work.
-Ryan McClure-
Scaper - Browncoat - Warsie (semi-movie purist) - Colonial - TNG/DS9-era Trekker - Hero || BOTM - Maniac || Antireligious naturalist
User avatar
The Silence and I
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1658
Joined: 2002-11-09 09:04pm
Location: Bleh!

Post by The Silence and I »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:That is of course logical, but requires newtonian maneuvering--I am hardly the first to point out no one in Star Wars uses that. I do not suggest that newtonian motion is a flawed model for Star Wars, but it is clear standard engine drives--including those on an ISD--operate on some different principle.
Not true, they do use newtonian drives. It's exactly how their ion engines are described to work. Hot exhuast shoots out one end at rediculous speeds and the ship goes in the other. That glow coming out that back of the Stardestroyers engines don't just make it look scary.

In fact, there is a good description of how the X-Wing, with all its swoop and swirl, manuevers, using a combination of thrusters and gyros in the first Incredible Cross Sections. All that is newtonian physics.


Like I said, it's a minor cavaet, because ships never do turnovers to brake in sci-fi movies and TV shows. Or very rarely, B5 did alot of that with Starfuries and the Whitestar.
Gil, I understand basic reaction principles, and Star Wars abuses them. Badly. In space, banking to make a turn exactly resembling an atmospheric turn consumes extra reaction power and mass to pull off that frivolous stunt. There is no good reason to waste power and fuel doing that--especially in circumstances where it makes perfectly good sense to throw it out the window. Assuming weapon and drive parity B5 fighters would chew Star Wars fighters for breakfaste--they can out maneuver SW any day of the week, and use less reaction mass to do so. Claiming SW uses newtonian engine drives is a stretch--it can be done, but really, occam's razor tells me it doesn't all add up.
"Do not worry, I have prepared something for just such an emergency."

"You're prepared for a giant monster made entirely of nulls stomping around Mainframe?!"

"That is correct!"

"How do you plan for that?"

"Uh... lucky guess?"
User avatar
Zac Naloen
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5488
Joined: 2003-07-24 04:32pm
Location: United Kingdom

Post by Zac Naloen »


It's possible there are numerous small braking thrusters on the hull that don't eject as much visible glowies,
And if you're going to start claiming that nonsense, why not assume they use ion cannons to turn or slow the ship?
In ESB when the falcon lands on bespin we see several "vents" around the falcons hull ejecting steam. Any idea what purpose these serve? (if any)
Image
Member of the Unremarkables
Just because you're god, it doesn't mean you can treat people that way : - My girlfriend
Evil Brit Conspiracy - Insignificant guy
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16449
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Post by Batman »

Zac Naloen wrote: In ESB when the falcon lands on bespin we see several "vents" around the falcons hull ejecting steam. Any idea what purpose these serve? (if any)
Err-maneuvring thrusters?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
User avatar
Zac Naloen
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5488
Joined: 2003-07-24 04:32pm
Location: United Kingdom

Post by Zac Naloen »

Batman wrote:
Zac Naloen wrote: In ESB when the falcon lands on bespin we see several "vents" around the falcons hull ejecting steam. Any idea what purpose these serve? (if any)
Err-maneuvring thrusters?
So its not totally moronic that the ships in star wars could use these for breaking as well?
Image
Member of the Unremarkables
Just because you're god, it doesn't mean you can treat people that way : - My girlfriend
Evil Brit Conspiracy - Insignificant guy
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16449
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Post by Batman »

Zac Naloen wrote:
Batman wrote: Err-maneuvring thrusters?
So its not totally moronic that the ships in star wars could use these for breaking as well?
Not exactly moronic, but given that the maneuvring done in that scene by the MF didn't begin to achive m/s velocity changes, leave alone 4-figure g accellerations, unless you assume Wars ships take 10,000 times the time to slow down that they take to speed up it IS something of a stretch.
Thrusters are good for fine-tuning approach vectors, rotating the ship around an axis, etc, NOT for heavy duty decelleration.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
User avatar
Jean Paul
Deimos Sock Puppet
Posts: 274
Joined: 2002-09-29 12:46pm

Post by Jean Paul »

Here's the idea I'm thinking of:

Image
Last edited by Jean Paul on 2004-10-19 12:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

The Silence and I wrote:Gil, I understand basic reaction principles, and Star Wars abuses them. Badly. In space, banking to make a turn exactly resembling an atmospheric turn consumes extra reaction power and mass to pull off that frivolous stunt. There is no good reason to waste power and fuel doing that--especially in circumstances where it makes perfectly good sense to throw it out the window. Assuming weapon and drive parity B5 fighters would chew Star Wars fighters for breakfaste--they can out maneuver SW any day of the week, and use less reaction mass to do so. Claiming SW uses newtonian engine drives is a stretch--it can be done, but really, occam's razor tells me it doesn't all add up.
Shooting hot gas in on direction for motion in the other is a reaction drive. However, I think you're confusing my position. I'm the first one to note that SW ships move queerly for ships that use reaction drives. In fact, I did exactly that in my first post in my thread, saying that it was unusual to me that despite using what are obviously reaction drives in appearance that they never hit turnover to slow themselves sharply.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
The Silence and I
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1658
Joined: 2002-11-09 09:04pm
Location: Bleh!

Post by The Silence and I »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:Gil, I understand basic reaction principles, and Star Wars abuses them. Badly. In space, banking to make a turn exactly resembling an atmospheric turn consumes extra reaction power and mass to pull off that frivolous stunt. There is no good reason to waste power and fuel doing that--especially in circumstances where it makes perfectly good sense to throw it out the window. Assuming weapon and drive parity B5 fighters would chew Star Wars fighters for breakfaste--they can out maneuver SW any day of the week, and use less reaction mass to do so. Claiming SW uses newtonian engine drives is a stretch--it can be done, but really, occam's razor tells me it doesn't all add up.
Shooting hot gas in on direction for motion in the other is a reaction drive. However, I think you're confusing my position. I'm the first one to note that SW ships move queerly for ships that use reaction drives. In fact, I did exactly that in my first post in my thread, saying that it was unusual to me that despite using what are obviously reaction drives in appearance that they never hit turnover to slow themselves sharply.
You are right, perhaps i should state my position a little more clearly. Earlier I typed a post detailing queer effects of star wars reaction drives, but my argument was not ready and I deleted it. But I think I shall lay out some of the things I've noticed that I had used as part of my position. Ion drives in theory shoot charged particles out their rear end at very high velocity, thus producing thrust--we all know this. Now, I am assuming it makes sense for an engine on high power to be visually different from an engine on low power/off. That is, it makes sense to me that a powerful burn will glow brighter than a weak burn, or no burn at all.
In star wars, if you watch star fighters you will notice their engine glow never varies--running straight down the DS trench at constant velocity (as evidence I point out McC's excellent work on this) has the same engine glow as dogfighting maneuvers. It's like if the engines are on they glow one color and intensity, and if they are off they don't glow, with no in-between.
No matter what the craft does, no variation happens. Small maneuvering thrusters do not fire visibly, the engine glow is static, yet the craft suddenly takes off in some direction, or slows or doesn't change speed or direction--and that bloody glow is there the whole time.
Only the Falcon AFAIK has ever shown variation in its drive appearance: in ESB, it makes it "attack run" and puts out a large burn when turning around--trouble is the acceleration there was not even looking at the ballpark where inferred accelerations reside.
To put it simply, I am stumped right now, but I am fairly sure ion drives are more involved than we give them credit for.
"Do not worry, I have prepared something for just such an emergency."

"You're prepared for a giant monster made entirely of nulls stomping around Mainframe?!"

"That is correct!"

"How do you plan for that?"

"Uh... lucky guess?"
User avatar
The Original Nex
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1593
Joined: 2004-10-18 03:01pm
Location: Boston, MA

Post by The Original Nex »

Jean Paul wrote:Here's the idea I'm thinking of:

Image
Link didn't work
User avatar
McC
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 2775
Joined: 2004-01-11 02:47pm
Location: Southeastern MA, USA
Contact:

Post by McC »

The Silence and I wrote:You are right, perhaps i should state my position a little more clearly. Earlier I typed a post detailing queer effects of star wars reaction drives, but my argument was not ready and I deleted it. But I think I shall lay out some of the things I've noticed that I had used as part of my position. Ion drives in theory shoot charged particles out their rear end at very high velocity, thus producing thrust--we all know this. Now, I am assuming it makes sense for an engine on high power to be visually different from an engine on low power/off. That is, it makes sense to me that a powerful burn will glow brighter than a weak burn, or no burn at all.
In star wars, if you watch star fighters you will notice their engine glow never varies--running straight down the DS trench at constant velocity (as evidence I point out McC's excellent work on this) has the same engine glow as dogfighting maneuvers. It's like if the engines are on they glow one color and intensity, and if they are off they don't glow, with no in-between.
No matter what the craft does, no variation happens. Small maneuvering thrusters do not fire visibly, the engine glow is static, yet the craft suddenly takes off in some direction, or slows or doesn't change speed or direction--and that bloody glow is there the whole time.
Only the Falcon AFAIK has ever shown variation in its drive appearance: in ESB, it makes it "attack run" and puts out a large burn when turning around--trouble is the acceleration there was not even looking at the ballpark where inferred accelerations reside.
To put it simply, I am stumped right now, but I am fairly sure ion drives are more involved than we give them credit for.
Y'know, maybe there's more merit to the idea that the ion drives are little more than waste exhaust vents for the craft reactors and the drives themselves are non-newtonian in design than I initially thought... :?
-Ryan McClure-
Scaper - Browncoat - Warsie (semi-movie purist) - Colonial - TNG/DS9-era Trekker - Hero || BOTM - Maniac || Antireligious naturalist
User avatar
The Silence and I
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1658
Joined: 2002-11-09 09:04pm
Location: Bleh!

Post by The Silence and I »

Such an idea makes more sense to me, but I was reluctant to come out and say so just yet.
"Do not worry, I have prepared something for just such an emergency."

"You're prepared for a giant monster made entirely of nulls stomping around Mainframe?!"

"That is correct!"

"How do you plan for that?"

"Uh... lucky guess?"
User avatar
McC
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 2775
Joined: 2004-01-11 02:47pm
Location: Southeastern MA, USA
Contact:

Post by McC »

The Silence and I wrote:Such an idea makes more sense to me, but I was reluctant to come out and say so just yet.
It sounds pretty heretical...the question is whether or not it flies in the face of Occam's razor, or coincides with it, and also whether or not such a break with high-level canon (the ICS books) is acceptable, given that on-screen evidence seems to suggest an alternative mechanism to the one listed in the books.

:?
-Ryan McClure-
Scaper - Browncoat - Warsie (semi-movie purist) - Colonial - TNG/DS9-era Trekker - Hero || BOTM - Maniac || Antireligious naturalist
User avatar
Jean Paul
Deimos Sock Puppet
Posts: 274
Joined: 2002-09-29 12:46pm

Post by Jean Paul »

The Original Nex wrote:
Jean Paul wrote:Here's the idea I'm thinking of:

Image
Link didn't work
Fixed
Image
User avatar
The Silence and I
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1658
Joined: 2002-11-09 09:04pm
Location: Bleh!

Post by The Silence and I »

McC wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:Such an idea makes more sense to me, but I was reluctant to come out and say so just yet.
It sounds pretty heretical...the question is whether or not it flies in the face of Occam's razor, or coincides with it, and also whether or not such a break with high-level canon (the ICS books) is acceptable, given that on-screen evidence seems to suggest an alternative mechanism to the one listed in the books.

:?
Well call me heretical then, but my take on Star Wars technology rarely coincides with official material, ICS or anything. I just stay quiet about it most of the time :)
"Do not worry, I have prepared something for just such an emergency."

"You're prepared for a giant monster made entirely of nulls stomping around Mainframe?!"

"That is correct!"

"How do you plan for that?"

"Uh... lucky guess?"
User avatar
Jean Paul
Deimos Sock Puppet
Posts: 274
Joined: 2002-09-29 12:46pm

Post by Jean Paul »

The Silence and I wrote:
McC wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:Such an idea makes more sense to me, but I was reluctant to come out and say so just yet.
It sounds pretty heretical...the question is whether or not it flies in the face of Occam's razor, or coincides with it, and also whether or not such a break with high-level canon (the ICS books) is acceptable, given that on-screen evidence seems to suggest an alternative mechanism to the one listed in the books.

:?
Well call me heretical then, but my take on Star Wars technology rarely coincides with official material, ICS or anything. I just stay quiet about it most of the time :)
If what you claim is correct, why has every space vessel ever seen in SW had its engine vents at the back, pointing aft? It shouldn't matter where it is, if you're right.
Image
User avatar
McC
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 2775
Joined: 2004-01-11 02:47pm
Location: Southeastern MA, USA
Contact:

Post by McC »

Jean Paul wrote:If what you claim is correct, why has every space vessel ever seen in SW had its engine vents at the back, pointing aft? It shouldn't matter where it is, if you're right.
Yeah, that's why I hesitated when thinking about posting the idea the first time. Though an explanation may exist...after all, you don't want to be shooting reactor exhaust out the front of the ship where you're flying, and you don't want it shooting out of one side unevenly, since that will produce some kind of thrust...perhaps rear is simply optimal since the ship is going to be pointing its rear...rearward (yeah, awkward phrasing, I know) anyway, thus providing a tiny amount of thrust in the direct the ship would normally be moving in.

Eh, even as I type it, it doesn't feel quite right. *shrug*
-Ryan McClure-
Scaper - Browncoat - Warsie (semi-movie purist) - Colonial - TNG/DS9-era Trekker - Hero || BOTM - Maniac || Antireligious naturalist
Post Reply