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Joe wrote:

I used to ghost-write essays for people taking liberal-arts classes in university. I didn't always get an A, but I could always get a B or better. All I needed was a bit of notes from the class and a brief description of what the essay was about. Mind you, I never tried doing this for fourth-year classes, but I did first, second, and third-year liberals arts classes with no problem. And this was generally without actually attending any of these courses.

They actually turned in your essays for their classes?

Yes.

Isn't that kind of unethical?

Arguably yes, until you consider the fact that it's obviously a bullshit assignment in the first place, otherwise a person who never attended the class and spent just one night writing the essay should never have gotten a B+, never mind an A.

It should also be noted that there are a lot more shenanigans in liberal-arts faculties on university; haven't you ever noticed that when a truly whack-job article makes the rounds from some university professor, it's always somebody in the humanities? What was the last time you heard about some engineering prof spending his time writing screeds about the white race should be abolished?

Or did you just do them in your spare time for fun?

I usually did them to help out a friend, but there were times I was paid. Seriously, it's hard to get worked up over the ethics of falsifying what is clearly a bullshit assignment in the first place. Any assignment where the "money shot" part of the question is "justify your opinion" is a slam-dunk. All you have to do is sound reasonable and make sure your essay is well-structured and harps on its point in a clear but not browbeating way. The only real trick was to ask the student "OK, which way does the prof lean on this question" and then make a logical-sounding argument for that position. Because they may talk about how no interpretation is truly correct, but that's not what they really believe.

Ironically enough, the fact that I didn't attend the classes may have helped. By arguing for the prof's position without mimicking the exact way in which he did so (an impossibility, since I never actually heard him make his case), it comes off as independent thinking rather than parrotting (yet I still came up with the "correct" answer)

Joe wrote:They actually turned in your essays for their classes? Isn't that kind of unethical?

When they're basically "make work" assignments given out by lazy profs who don't want to teach because their time is better spent trying to get their loony world-views published in the school paper, it's really hard to care. I'm paying for an education, not for some whack-a-loon prof to write propaganda for various publications.

RedImperator wrote:It depends very much on the level of the class and the quality of the department. I was a history/polisci double major and I had classes where I could throw together a paper in a few hours and classes where I had to work for weeks. Generally those subjects get difficult when you have to start doing original research--hitting the archives and the primary sources, or fooling with statistics. But writing a report based on secondary sources is typically not that difficult; anyone with good writing and critical thinking skills ought to be able to do well with that.

Second that, I majored in public policy which is an interdiciplinary degree combining history, law, politics, and international relations in the studies. Papers where one is mearly asked to justify an opinion are usually pretty straightforward and can be put together in a few hours to a couple days at worst depending on the length requirements. Oftentimes it took me longer to type out than to think out and plan in my head. Original research, like what was required for my undergrad thesis gets a lot more involved and you will end up living in the school libraries indexing and cross-referencing hundreds of pages of notes from countless books and journals. This of course is when we Princeton folks make light of Harvard's inferior curriculum since they do not require an undergrad thesis to graduate.

phongn wrote:

Stuart Mackey wrote:Trouble is that over here, the inablity to fix a computer in that industry, makes you about as useless as tits on a bull, we like people who can do more than one thing.

Why should a software engineer be required to know how to fix a computer? It is a useful skill but fixing computers should be the job of the IT department.

*Edit* Moreover, its not like fixing computers is a hard thing to learn

No, it isn't a hard thing but that isn't the point. And there is much to be said about experience in the art of fixing computers.

Over here, most companies dont have the luxury of having an IT deparment, yet the job must be done, as such, a degree of basic troubleshooting skills are desirable.

Q: what are the six words every liberal arts grad needs to know?
A: Do you want fries with that?

then again i shouldn't talk. Marketing was pretty tit.

Don't knock Lib Arts grads. We need people to sell us things.

Dalton wrote:Don't knock Lib Arts grads. We need people to sell us things.

"Would you like fries with that?"

My course is a BA, but it's in Journalism which puts it at odds with the methods and thinking of every other BA going around here.

For starters, we dont have min word counts for essays and work, we get an absolute hard max. Go over it and get your grade harshly dropped. We're told to call a fish a fish and leave the nonsesne to the folk doing English Lit.

So far an 8 paragraph piece has been worth 25% of my grade for one of the classes.

The only exception to this is that the powers that be insisted a sociology class be given as part of the first year which has most of us pissed off.

EDIT: And also, we usually get at most a weeks notice for an folio piece or assessed work. The last minute is what we're being taught to work at

So is history an art or a science?

I've always said my flatmate doing History and Archaeology is only doing a half-science.

I am currently a double majoring in History and Russian Language. The History classes are actually pretty challenging, and there's a lot of research involved. The Russian is just challenging becuase it's a foreign language.

The University of Wisconsin offers a History major as both a Bachelor of Arts degree and a Bachelor of Science degree. It just depends on the focus of the coursework - there are a lot of history courses that focus on the history of scientific thought, as well as your average history courses focusing on a specific region or country.

phongn wrote:Why should a software engineer be required to know how to fix a computer? It is a useful skill but fixing computers should be the job of the IT department.

It sure as hell is important. If this "programmer" doesnt know how to fix problems caused by common conflicting software configurations I sure as hell dont want him writing or maintaining any code which interacts with those software configurations.

Also overspecialization is just asking for you to be made redundant when the technologies change, which happens often in the computer field.

You dont need to be great, but having no clue really isnt good enough.

ggs wrote:It sure as hell is important. If this "programmer" doesnt know how to fix problems caused by common conflicting software configurations I sure as hell dont want him writing or maintaining any code which interacts with those software configurations.

I was looking more from a hardware perspective than software. Obviously a software engineer needs to be able to ensure his program will cooperate nicely with other ones.

Stuart wrote:Over here, most companies dont have the luxury of having an IT deparment, yet the job must be done, as such, a degree of basic troubleshooting skills are desirable.

In the US, it seems that even relatively small firms and startups at least have a small IT and/or MIS department (might only be a couple people, mind you).

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Plenty of gorgeous girls in biology if you ever get bored of being a budding Freud. Ratio must be near 2:1 in my class against boys.

True enough, I dated a hot biochem chick who shared a physics class with me. Problem is Bio, unlike psych, actually requires a shitload of work to get a decent grade, and me being a lazy guy after easy A's, well, the choice was easy. Psychology elective.

phongn wrote:I was looking more from a hardware perspective than software. Obviously a software engineer needs to be able to ensure his program will cooperate nicely with other ones.

I wouldnt expect someone who work mainly with software to know now to rewire a network, but at least know what things plug into the back of a computer. These days that stuff is all colour coded and different sames most of the time, it doesnt require much todo that.

In the US, it seems that even relatively small firms and startups at least have a small IT and/or MIS department (might only be a couple people, mind you).

Wierd, that isnt really the experiance I've had around my city.

Dalton wrote:Don't knock Lib Arts grads. We need people to sell us things.

BWAHAH!

*Wipes tear from eye*

Yes, anyway. I'd like to add something to the whole "lazy prof." thing. Has anyone had a lecturer who is obviously only teaching because his funding overview has come about and he needs to justify extra research by doing hours in the lecture hall? I had one teach me genetics last year. I say "teach", really I should've just gone and read my textbook because all he did was photocopy half of it for notes and try and read through them for the lecture.

If it hadn't been for the fact that the sciences have a register for every lecture and practical (another thing I notice lib-arts major classes seem to lack) then I would've just had a lie in.

phongn wrote: In the US, it seems that even relatively small firms and startups at least have a small IT and/or MIS department (might only be a couple people, mind you).

Not here, generally. Here a person has to have multiple skills. No one, generaly, can afford to have some one who can only do one task, esp not when unemployment is at 3.8% and dropping. This is even more so when unemployment is high.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:

Dalton wrote:Don't knock Lib Arts grads. We need people to sell us things.

BWAHAH!

*Wipes tear from eye*

phongn wrote:

Stuart wrote:Over here, most companies dont have the luxury of having an IT deparment, yet the job must be done, as such, a degree of basic troubleshooting skills are desirable.

In the US, it seems that even relatively small firms and startups at least have a small IT and/or MIS department (might only be a couple people, mind you).

not if you want to make money. We outsource. For $600 a month we get two routine maintenence visits and free support (to a degree) a month. That keeps our 6 workstation network running just fine. The only way you can justify the expenditure of an actual IT department is if the network was twice the size, or if we were an internet services company.

I've got Psyc and English as my majors, with history probably getting bumped up to major status next semester. I laugh at my paper topics. Honors English (IE presumptuous crap courses) I found were 99% Bullshit Papers. My final paper for it last semester was 20 pages on...I have no idea. But I got my A. Psyc is more of a challenge, because it actually has SUBSTANCE to it, like History, but I can still manage that.

But I do wholeheartedly agree that English in specific (Liberal Arts in general) is quite the joke. I mean, I'm a senior, and I've been assigned Dante's Inferno FIVE TIMES. Always the Inferno, never the Purgatorio, or Paradiso, because they're too difficult to provide a structured discussion (for a public school at least), The Aeneid and Odyssey three times each, Frankenstein twice, etc. You don't LEARN anything by re-reading these, all you get is your particular professor's bend on the topic, and once you figure out that, you can plow through any assignment.

If I do my Honors thesis, that might be difficult, not because of content (my topic is second nature to me), but because of time management, because 75 pages is a decent amount to write for someone who has no work ethic.


PS Its my senior year, and I've only had ONE paper so far in three English classes and two Philosophy classes. The SUNY system is a JOKE, not that I'm complaining though

NeoGoomba wrote:
But I do wholeheartedly agree that English in specific (Liberal Arts in general) is quite the joke. I mean, I'm a senior, and I've been assigned Dante's Inferno FIVE TIMES. Always the Inferno, never the Purgatorio, or Paradiso, because they're too difficult to provide a structured discussion (for a public school at least), The Aeneid and Odyssey three times each, Frankenstein twice, etc. You don't LEARN anything by re-reading these, all you get is your particular professor's bend on the topic, and once you figure out that, you can plow through any assignment.

That is fucking stupid. No other way to put it.

My Bachelor's degree was in mechanical engineering, but I'd have to say that the one philosophy course that I took was one of the most challenging and interesting courses that I've ever taken.

My first-year english course was frankly a joke, however. I spent all of 20 hours on a full-year course and came out with a B+ or A- IIRC... I think I only read half of the required texts. Having said this, I am a big supporter of the arts, and I think a well-rounded person needs to at least have exposure to the arts, philosophy and science, if not formal training.

Arts units are either hit or miss with me. So far I've done History, Literature, Politics, Philosophy, and International Relations. Of them all, Lit and IR are the ones I've had the MOST fun and learning take place, philosophy the most boring and tedious. It remains to be seen what Professional Writing will be like.

Well, what do you consider the Liberal Arts, because have a Lib Arts Major, but many classes that aren't science/math are listed as liberal arts in form.

What do you suggest is done to make these classes better.





I am a HIstory major, but I tend to work pretty hard when I have a good class. Some of the stuff we do is really stupid, but I tend to do a lot of reading an notation anyway, because I feel bad if I don't do the work or enough stuff.

I bullshitted a six page paper on STDs one time. I have no idea what the grade is yet, though, and since the teacher is actually some kind of medical type person (I think, she has some fancy looking letters after her name), it may not have gone so well.

Then again, actually attending the class in question so I could get the paper back would be helpful.

Anyhow, English Comp I seemed like an ednless string of busywork that I did in high school. I usually just typed something up that day, turned it in, got her little remarks/edits/etc, redid it basically they exact way she said to edit it, and I got an A. Pretty easy.

So, DW, if I ever get any other makework assignments like this again, does this mean I can ask you to do them for me?