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Spanky The Dolphin wrote:What, what fuck up did Rouge commit?

I'm worried this might balloon to another one of those "the empire is evil" threads. That's all.

Yes, point rogue. Tarkin was evil.

[edit] Also i don't want the thread hijacked as a result.

Stofsk wrote:I've finished reading Wraith Squadron, and then tried reading Iron Fist.

Simply put, it sucks. I mean it's really bad. And I went in on Allston's side, here.

Ok so I will explain why, so as not to present this as a mere vent. I will do it in list format to irritate Spanky:

• Why do we have fighter jockeys on commando missions? Please, can SOMEBODY answer me this? This is a fault of ALL the X-wing novels, not just Allston's WS trilogy. Indeed, WS tries to make it sound more plausible by having Wedge form the group from misfits with commando experience. The RS books have no excuse. But why can't we have a SAS group instead, with the Rogues/Wraiths fighting alongside them but from the air? I don't know who the fuck he is, but Lieutenant Page is supposed to be a Rebel Commando. So why don't we SEE the Rebel Commandos, and let the fighter-jockey's fly their ships? It's irritating to see the writers try to make their fanwank characters into superheroes.

Not 100% sure, but just having a general stab at this 'cause I haven't read all of these books (think I avoided them after Bacta War), but I suspect that somebody liked S:AAB just a teeny bit too much and tried to copy its format. Or maybe Luke on Endor, you know one of the two.

Look, it barely worked in S:AAB, but at least there it was at least half plausible as these guys were Marines and not Navy Aviator/Air Force and we go through with them in training as grunts and pilots (ridiculous I know, but it felt okay there), but with the Rogue Squadron books?

Nah didn't buy it either.

*shrugs*

Wraith Squadron was the most silly of the three, but the trilogy was a hell of a lot better than Stackpole's contribution. Just for killing off characters with more than two sentences of backstory and development. Does anyone remember anything that Gavin's wingman said in the three ad a half books that occured before he was shot down? My SoD is unhurt by this, as I just treat the entire X-wing game series and all of the books spawned off of it as a differnet universe than the mainstream SW one.


I'd disagree with Isaard releasing a virus just to be needlessly evil, she released it to accomplish a set of mission goals. Its still evil, just not needless.

consequences wrote:
I'd disagree with Isaard releasing a virus just to be needlessly evil, she released it to accomplish a set of mission goals. Its still evil, just not needless.

IN actual fact it was a damn good plan that under any other circumstances would have succeeded. Release a plague that would kill the majority ofyour enemieson a planet, turn that planet over to the rebels (who would feelsobligaedtohelp the enemy of their enemy) and then take over the only planet that could produce a cure so bankrupt your enemy's goverment. If your enemy has no money it can't build new ships and train crews for them.

Pcm979 wrote:Even if I didn't prefer the Wraith Squadron books for any other reason, It'd simply be because I hate Corran Horn. Seriously, by the time of the NJO Corran Horn is the fucking God-Emperor of Mankind; He has no character flaws, he can do no wrong, I want him to die in a gruesome manner; Preferably by having his internal organs removed over a course of days.

[/rant]

What going over to the darkside doesn't count has a charcter flaw?

NJO Corran doesn't have a large amount of Character flaws but X-Wing Corran had plenty. Mainly in the fact in his beleive in his own infallibilty and an inabillity to see past his own pointy of view.

Rogue Squadron.
(1) Corran is predjudice against Lujayne Forge csimply ecuase she omes form kessel.
(2) Is so self confidet he thinks he can take out all the Storm trooper cammandos in the base. He gets shot and nerely dies because of this.
(3) Not only does Corran nerely get himslef killed he also leads an inexperienced kid who's never even used a balster before into battle agasint Stormtroopers. Needless to say Gvain gets shot almost emmiatly and again barely survives.

Wedges Gamble.
(1) Inabillity to trust Tycho.
(2)Arrogance: States beleive that his own lose of his father counted for more than the lost of their entire homeworld to Aldereans.
(3) SO overvconfident in his abillities he aidentifies a duro as Kirtan Loor merely from his height and build and then won't beleive otherwise, despite tycho saving his life on NUMEROUS ocossions when it would be better for the empire he died.

Krytos Trap.
(1) Again Inabillity to trust tycho up to the point when Isard tells him he's innocent (this might have been in the Gamble epilogue) and even dobts it when he sees that Tycho was inncoent on a computer in a secure location.

(2) Selfish enough to refuse to become a jedi for personal reasons and obligations. (when he could have fufilled said obligations better as a Jedi)

(3)Thinks he knows better than the NR leadership and resigns his commision and thus deals a blow the NR by taking away their symbollic Rogue Squadron.

Bacta War.
(1) His arrogance leads him to try and mind trick a Stormie trooper with NO TRAINING thus preciptating a massive lightfight that almost gets him killed and bolws the insertion teams cover.

I, Jedi.
(1) Arrogant and competive nature leads him to repeatly question his jedi master distracting him and condeming him for doing the best he can.

(2) Arrogantly thinks he can blow up Exar Kuns stronghold, misses vital clue and runs with his assumption and thus gets the living crap beaten out of him.

(3) Basically lets his vaunted morals go and nearly becomes a twisted pirate through and through.


Through out all of above:
(1) Continued preoccupation with what his father would have wanted.

(2) Phycological need ofr an aurothity figure for him to depend on to "set his moral compass".

consequences wrote:Wraith Squadron was the most silly of the three, but the trilogy was a hell of a lot better than Stackpole's contribution. Just for killing off characters with more than two sentences of backstory and development. Does anyone remember anything that Gavin's wingman said in the three ad a half books that occured before he was shot down? .

Worse I cna only remember 3 sentences in the entire Rogue Squadron Book relevant to Rogue 2 Pesh'K Vish. 1) Well he tells Corran his sim score. One well Wedge give nad order to rogue two and then sentence when a planetary defense ion cannon blasted him to itty bitty pieces.

I seem to remember Corran Horn trying the Jedi mind trick on the stormtrooper in the third book, Krtos Trap or some such, near the end. I don't remember it in The Bacta War. Then again I haven't read both in years.

Crazedwraith wrote:*Snippathon*

No offence, but you could've saved yourself a lot of trouble if you'd read my post.

I wrote:by the time of the NJO

BTW, how does it help his case that when he's not infallible he's a close-minded dickhead?

Stofsk wrote:I seem to remember Corran Horn trying the Jedi mind trick on the stormtrooper in the third book, Krtos Trap or some such, near the end. I don't remember it in The Bacta War. Then again I haven't read both in years.

In Krytros he subconciously uses it to escape a stromies notcied in Lusankya when he was hiding in a cuboard.


In Bacta Wars he conciuously tries to do it to a stormie when he lands on Thyferria just Prior to meeting the Aschern and the ressurcted Bror Jace. Needless to say he fails and a balster brawl breaks out. Corran tries to pwn some Stormies with lightsaber and falls off a balcony. Fortunatly Bror Jace and the Aschern save save his ass and get him to a bacta tank.

Pcm979 wrote: BTW, how does it help his case that when he's not infallible he's a close-minded dickhead?

You said he was a infallible wonder person, I was merely pointing out that he does have flaws. I never said they made him a decent character.

Alright. Point conceeded and revised to "Thinks he's an infallible wonder person and never gets proven otherwise."

*Can't even pick up I, Jedi without wanting to retch*

Pcm979 wrote:Alright. Point conceeded and revised to "Thinks he's an infallible wonder person and never gets proven otherwise."

I ordinarily like the idea of a character with flaws, and thus human. Yet when the character itself is obnoxious, arrogant and an idiot, I wonder if the boundaries have been crossed.

*Can't even pick up I, Jedi without wanting to retch*

Surely it's not that bad. I mean, this is the EU we're talking about.

No. It is that bad. I can handle Cookie-cutter characters, villians and stories. I can even handle a cookie-cutter character whose defining characteristic is being a dick, but not if he's never proven wrong. He's a dick to all and sundry and still comes out of it with a shining halo, smelling of roses and stupidly-über force powers.

Since I'm derailing this thread, I shall now shut up and allow normal service to resume.

The problem with having pilots also act as commandos is that both are very intense military occupations, that require alot of training. A certain amount of cross-training in the military is required and encouraged. But in this case you'd end up with a pilot/commando who isn't very good at either job.

Both jobs are completely different from one another and I fail to see how they could be combined successfully. SW isn't the only party guilty of this though. Space Above and Beyond featured commando/pilots as well.

"Needlessly evil"?

I'd just chalk it up to sadism.

The villians commit evil acts, because it makes them feel pleasure to see others suffer. Especially their enemies.

Other villian motivations: lives for battle (the thrill of conquest), paranoid in the extreme (kill them all before they try to kill you), revenge (feels he's been wronged somehow... perhaps the universe refuses to acknowledge his genius/glorious leadership).

Then there's the classic one, greed! "I don't care how many people I hurt to get what I want." Does a good villian need to be a deep gray, brooding "I only wanted to do good, I'm just misunderstood" kinda guy?

Now when it comes to the Dark Side of the force, committing heinous acts may be a direct key to power. Doing nasty things might boost your dark mana or something. Make up your own excuse. ; )

Yeah yeah, it's about keeping it interesting. But as far as believability goes...

Kurgan wrote:"I don't care how many people I hurt to get what I want." Does a good villian need to be a deep gray, brooding "I only wanted to do good, I'm just misunderstood" kinda guy?

No.

Thrawn is evil, but he doesn't think of him so. And indeed, you will get some contention on that issue. He doesn't waste his people needlessly (with the exception of the luckless conscript in HttE), he encourages them most of the time, he's upbeat and positive (without being obnoxiously cheerful), and doesn't do that whole "I will twirl my moustache now to let you know I'm the villain." He has flaws, strategic blunders and the like, but these are good character traits. Thrawn is a good villain.

A villain doesn't have to be brooding misunderstood guy. By that same token, he doesn't have to be the vicious, enraged arsehole who kills people on a whim.

In defense of Zsinj:
He rocked.

In defense of me:
Too much blood in my caffine system! Why do I see 2 screens?

Pcm979 wrote:Even if I didn't prefer the Wraith Squadron books for any other reason, It'd simply be because I hate Corran Horn. Seriously, by the time of the NJO Corran Horn is the fucking God-Emperor of Mankind; He has no character flaws, he can do no wrong, I want him to die in a gruesome manner; Preferably by having his internal organs removed over a course of days.

[/rant]

Actually, I liked Corran Horn... but perhaps because I have a similar (though not as extreme... people like me ) a personality. In any case, keep in mind that when reading about Corran Horn, you are usually doing so through his own point of view. Of course he's going to see everything he does as correct. When I read it, though, I saw many of his mistakes clear as day. It almost pained me to read them, because I could just imagine the dumbfounded look on his face every time it happened...

Another arrogant thing was when Corran barged into the courtroom at the end of The Krytos Trap and kept on blabbering thinking everyone was asking him questions after being told to shut up.

He also was sure he had two ladies after him (Erisi and Mirax), and so was completely oblivious to the fact that Erisi was a spy. Even though, when read the books, Erisi should've given herself away a number of times in Corran's presence.

I don't remember Dark Tide too much, but by then Corran had likely become more mature... though he still did that whole ridiculous excile thing... (I joked that his character shields were so strong that not even his author/creator could kill him off.) Though, from what I understand, he returned anyway later on...

I remember reading the X-wing books, and noticing that Erisi was the only possible person who could have been the spy. IIRC, it's because she was the only character who was (a) a major character in the squadron re: actually had lines (unlike that Wolfman) and (b) she was the only one who didn't have a chapter written from her viewpoint. It was stunningly obvious.

Stofsk wrote: Why is Wedge invincible?

Because he's a damn good pilot, and he's not invincible, his craft has been shot up several times.

Why is Face adept at interpersonal skills? Maybe he should be in Military Intelligence and play the spy.

Because he was an actor, this was pointed out throughout the Wraith books. And as for the last part he and the Wraiths joined NRI at the end of Solo Command.

Why is Kell not in the Commandos? He's tough and strong, and adept at fighting, and piloting seems to be an ancilliary skill not his main one.

He was, but as stated in Wraith Squadron being a pilot was the only way to redeem his fathers name in his mind. And now he is back in NRI with the rest of the Wraith's.

Why is Myn Donos not a sniper? Instead he pilots a squadron, yet we are expected to believe he's ALSO a crackshot with a sniper rifle.

He was a sniper in the Correlian military as was said in, well gee whiz it was Wraith Squadron, that book you said you read but don't seem to remember anything about. As for the flying when he joined the rebels i assume he went to flight school or something, plus i believe he's said he prefered flying to sniping, which explains why at the end of Solo Command he doesn't join the rest of the Wraiths in joining NRI and stays witht he starfighters.

Jesus. Where is the Imperial version of the Desert Fox? The guy who the Rebels fought but without 'hate'?

That would be Admiral Rogriss (IIRC) in Solo Command.

2000AD wrote:He was a sniper in the Correlian military as was said in, well gee whiz it was Wraith Squadron

Maybe you didn't read the part where I pointed out the IDIOCY of having a pilot DOUBLE as a commando. I mean, you quoted PART of my OP, but apparently didn't read it fully.

that book you said you read but don't seem to remember anything about.

I was talking about the ROGUE SQUADRON books, for fuck's sake. As evidence for the fact I even mentioned the fucking TITLE.

[EDIT] Two titles, Krytos Trap and Bacta War, and I pointed out how I haven't read either one in years. I was asking someone a question about a plot development.

2000AD wrote:

Stofsk wrote: Why is Wedge invincible?

Because he's a damn good pilot, and he's not invincible, his craft has been shot up several times.

Context is everything. I liked Wedge, but there's a point where his exploits become too unfathomable. I was also talking about why the books don't show grunts but instead show superheros in flight suits.

[EDIT] Why is it when I read the TTT Zahn makes a point of showing Wedge not as a supercommando, or a superhero in a flight suit, but as a fucking pilot and as a squadron commander? Is it so much to expect the X-wing books to follow suit?

Why is Face adept at interpersonal skills? Maybe he should be in Military Intelligence and play the spy.

Because he was an actor, this was pointed out throughout the Wraith books. And as for the last part he and the Wraiths joined NRI at the end of Solo Command.

Haven't read Solo Command.

Again, I have to point out how doubling as a pilot and a commando, or in this case a Spy, is stupid...

Why is Kell not in the Commandos? He's tough and strong, and adept at fighting, and piloting seems to be an ancilliary skill not his main one.

He was, but as stated in Wraith Squadron being a pilot was the only way to redeem his fathers name in his mind. And now he is back in NRI with the rest of the Wraith's.

Kell wasn't bad, but like I said, doubling as a pilot and a commando is stupid...

Why is Myn Donos not a sniper? Instead he pilots a squadron, yet we are expected to believe he's ALSO a crackshot with a sniper rifle.

As for the flying when he joined the rebels i assume he went to flight school or something, plus i believe he's said he prefered flying to sniping, which explains why at the end of Solo Command he doesn't join the rest of the Wraiths in joining NRI and stays witht he starfighters.

Fine with me. You specialise in one, or the other, but not BOTH.

Jesus. Where is the Imperial version of the Desert Fox? The guy who the Rebels fought but without 'hate'?

That would be Admiral Rogriss (IIRC) in Solo Command.

Haven't read it.

Stofsk wrote:

2000AD wrote:He was a sniper in the Correlian military as was said in, well gee whiz it was Wraith Squadron

Maybe you didn't read the part where I pointed out the IDIOCY of having a pilot DOUBLE as a commando. I mean, you quoted PART of my OP, but apparently didn't read it fully.

For most of Wraith squadron it was the other way round, commando first then pilot, and since only about 40 people in the entire NR military made the basic requirements it shows how rare it is.
And in Wraith Squadron Wedge pointed out why having commando's that could double as pilots was a good idea in the SW galaxy.

that book you said you read but don't seem to remember anything about.

I was talking about the ROGUE SQUADRON books, for fuck's sake. As evidence for the fact I even mentioned the fucking TITLE.

Stofsk from the OP wrote:I've finished reading Wraith Squadron, and then tried reading Iron Fist.

Yup, Wraith Squadron and Iron Fist were Rougue Squadron books, and obviously "Face" Loran, and Kell Tainer were members of Rogue Squadron.

2000AD wrote:For most of Wraith squadron it was the other way round, commando first then pilot, and since only about 40 people in the entire NR military made the basic requirements it shows how rare it is.

Which is not a commentary on the value this group has, nor the plausibility of it occuring.

And in Wraith Squadron Wedge pointed out why having commando's that could double as pilots was a good idea in the SW galaxy.

No, he gave an implausible set of reasons and made the vague point that "We need to keep our tactics fresh, or run the risk of becoming stale like the Empire!"

I can point out how it's idiotic, given both professions require SPECIALISED training. I'm sure Wicked Pilot will pipe in with his personal displeasure at this brainbug, but what the fuck would he know, he's just a fucking pilot, and in the military. I can point out Corporeal Kendall saying the same thing, but what the fuck would he know, he's just a grunt (no offence, Cpl Kendall, I actually respect you for your knowledge).

that book you said you read but don't seem to remember anything about.

I was talking about the ROGUE SQUADRON books, for fuck's sake. As evidence for the fact I even mentioned the fucking TITLE.

Stofsk from the OP wrote:I've finished reading Wraith Squadron, and then tried reading Iron Fist.

Yup, Wraith Squadron and Iron Fist were Rougue Squadron books, and obviously "Face" Loran, and Kell Tainer were members of Rogue Squadron.

What the fuck are you talking about? You accused me of not having read the WS books, then you point out a quote of me saying I've read the WS books.

The fucking thread title is "The X-wing Books suck!" so obviously I'm going to talk about the RS books.

The day I read a SW book seriously is the day I quit serious literature, but that doesn't mean I'm giving the writers a free pass to treat me like a retard. Things happen in the X-wing series that are so absurd, so utterly pointless, as to be impossible to believe. Meanwhile, utterly crappy characters like Corran are given their Superman abilities and told to clean up the Galaxy. You'll forgive me if I'm unimpressed with a writer who gives himself Jedi powers and plonks himself in the middle of every important conflict.

Corran sucks.

Some of the books are actually enjoyable, but they're merely diamonds in the rough compared to the ones that blow chunks.