Iraqi officers terrified of reprisals

[Coyote]

The formula here is that a lot of the disorganized, amateur, sporadic and easily defeated insurgents are Iraqis. So, a guy that jumps up, sprays a magazine of ammo in your general direction, then runs, is an Iraqi.

OTOH, the highly-organized, well-trained, stand-up-and-fight attackers that are able to organize platoon and company level assaults and duke it out toe-to-toe with US forces are "muj", or "mujahiddiin", foreign fighterrs that have trained in camps in Afghanistan, Sudan, and Bekaa Valley Lebanon.

So even if the foreign fighters are only a small percentile, they are the more dangerous ones and cutting them out of the action is worth the effort.

[Coyote]

Why does it have to be new and groundbreaking? He made an incendiary statement regarding the current situation, he was asked to provide a source, and he provided his source as requested. Simple situation.

Nowhere did I see an advertisement of that statement as "new" or "groundbreaking".

Very true. His original statement seemed to infer that US soldiers were anally raping children as a matter of course (the impression I got, anyway) and this was a new accusation. When he provided the asked-for information I was able to see that this was simply another spin on old news-- so I saw it as a deliberate attempt at distortion.

I'm just too defensive. My apologies.

[Darth Wong]

The formula here is that a lot of the disorganized, amateur, sporadic and easily defeated insurgents are Iraqis. So, a guy that jumps up, sprays a magazine of ammo in your general direction, then runs, is an Iraqi.

OTOH, the highly-organized, well-trained, stand-up-and-fight attackers that are able to organize platoon and company level assaults and duke it out toe-to-toe with US forces are "muj", or "mujahiddiin", foreign fighterrs that have trained in camps in Afghanistan, Sudan, and Bekaa Valley Lebanon.

How do we know this to be true? Iraq did have a trained Army before the invasion, did it not? What happened to all of those guys?

[Coyote]

How do we know this to be true? Iraq did have a trained Army before the invasion, did it not? What happened to all of those guys?

This is what we've found to be the case in our sector, which does I admit does not necessarily always translate into the norm for the whole country.

A lot of the Intel speculation here does focus on "what happened to that damn army"? We suspect that a great many of them avoided conflict altogether, or put up token resistance, then laid low and are now working for us in the Iraqi National Guard.

The ING is full of a lot of guys that know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to weapons, drills, etc... while we are indeed experiencing resistance and militants, no doubt, we are certainly not experiencing resistant that accounts for half a million well-trained pissed-off guys. We'd be in much, much deeper shit than we are now if that were the case.

I'd wager-- no proof to back this up, I admit-- that a good many Iraqis are, indeed, guys trying to stay alive, make a living and just get by without trouble. The ING guys are a sizeable portion of the population drawing a steady paycheck. Not much, but it beats nothing. THat's probably the bulk of Saddam's army right there-- survivors rather than idealogues.

[Imperial Overlord]

Coyote, do you have any sources for this or is this opinion?

The New York Times articles I refered to (Sunday, Dec5) said that most of the security forces were now Shi'ite and Kurds, which leaves a lot of Sunni ex-military unnaccounted for. If it is a civil war situation, that explains a lot of organized Sunni fighters. I have seen nothing to indicate that there is a vast network of foreign fighters masterminding anything.

The place an American soldier is most likely to get injured of killed is the five mile stretch of road between Bahgdad and its airport. That is a very bad sign.

[Mr Bean]

How do we know this to be true? Iraq did have a trained Army before the invasion, did it not? What happened to all of those guys?

Would you grant theres a diffrence between traing how to run a stand up war with Iran for the past ten years and spending the last twenty fighting Isreal?(To give a comparson)

*Edit since I'm at work I'll toss this towards Edi
You know of course I took a single factor and expanded opon it instead of simply listing each and every single thing that prevents Iraq from being secure, I did not talk about the Cleric's stirring up hatred amount the popluas, I did not talk about the numbers of former Iraq military officers and officals who wish Saddam was back in power, I did not talk about the lack of education or the mismanagment of of infastructor rebuliding or the weak propaganda campain we are running atm

I just picked ONE thing out of a laundry list of reasons and wrote it in. And as for the FF may I mention the most important thing they bring into Iraq is training, experance insurgance can change the tone and lethality of a insurgancy very easliy

[Imperial Overlord]

Do we know that they are superior to the locals in training, experience, and whatnot? Do we know that aren't just enthusiastic amateurs?

[Elfdart]

I haven't seen a goddamned thing so far even suggesting that there's an Arab/Iranian/Muslim version of the International Brigades that fought in Spain, no matter how much Osama faps away at the fantasy. But that's what the neocons want the sheeple to believe: The trouble in Iraq is the work of these "interlopers" who exist in the neocons' wank dreams, too.

As far as the torture, rape and murder goes: It's what happens when one group of people has absolute control over another and has reason to believe it has a legal, moral or divine sanction to do as it pleases. So no Coyote, there isn't anything Arab about molesting boys, any more than the poo-stabbing priests are inherent in Catholocism. Molestation, rape and torture are what you get when a clique is given control over others with no accountability. What on Earth did Brigham Young and Mao have in common other than being absolute leaders and screwing as many underage girls as they could get their hands on? Juan Cole had a link to an article about this kind of mentality. I wish I could find it.

That's why POW detention facilities are supposed to be open for inspection to the Red Cross or similar groups. It's why senior officers are supposed to ride herd herd on the prisons, with surprise inspections to make sure this kind of shit doesn't happen. The Geneva Conventions weren't invented by peaceniks. They were created by people who knew what would -not could-happen to prisoners and civilians without tight controls. It was also a reaction against the way the Nazis had abused the earlier Geneva and Hague Conventions.

The whole business of handing over prisoners to third parties (which Numbnuts, Assholecroft and Dumbsfeld have approved of) is a good case in point. It's against the GC. Why? Because the Nazis used to round up Jews and others and instead of killing them off themselves, handed them over to mobs, militias, local police and quislings and let them do the dirty work. The SS treated Latvian and Lithuanian mass lynchings of Jews as a spectator sport. So, the Bush junta has been outsourcing torture of prisoners by sending them to countries that do the deed.

The fact that the current regime in Washington has flouted the law on so many counts -and is stupid enough to brag about it!- means that the rebels in Iraq are only going to grow stronger. If the administration had been on its best behavior, it might have been possible to prevent the chaos in Iraq now. What little chance there was of winning over the people in that country is gone forever.

[Coyote]

Coyote, do you have any sources for this or is this opinion?

The New York Times articles I refered to (Sunday, Dec5) said that most of the security forces were now Shi'ite and Kurds, which leaves a lot of Sunni ex-military unnaccounted for. If it is a civil war situation, that explains a lot of organized Sunni fighters. I have seen nothing to indicate that there is a vast network of foreign fighters masterminding anything.

The only proof I have, unfortunately, is the stuff I have seen with my own eyes here, and th eprisoners we have processed. In our area of operations we run across some Syrians but a lot of Iraqis. Our area also overlaps a lot of the Moqtadi al-Sadr area of influence, so there's a hint as to the motivations of that group.

Now I never said there was a vast network of foreign masterminds, although that is an impression being given by a lot of "official" sources, that must be what Elfdart is referring to. But there IS a foreign influence here. I will try to locate an AP article tha was recently printed in Stars and Stripes where the foreign minister of Iraq issued a public appeal (one of many, actually) to the neighbors (specifically Syria and Iran) to tighten its borders and try to stop the influx of fighters from coming in.

The place an American soldier is most likely to get injured of killed is the five mile stretch of road between Bahgdad and its airport. That is a very bad sign.

Yeah-- it's about a kilometer from where I'm sitting. "RPG alley" is in our zone of control and we do a lot of runs in that area looking for IEDs.

I've never said there was NO local resistance, and I never said that ALL resistance is foreign. There is a reason why the "Sunni Trianagle" is a danger zone, and why it is called that.

But Elfdart seems to be pooh-poohing the foreign contribution as wholly inconsequential, and in fact mostly a dreamed-up resistance of shadows made by the Bush Admin. I am trying to say that it is not an inconsequential factor in this, and the Iraqi administration agrees by asking for the neighbors to stop sending fighters.

The problem with Elfie is that I can already hear him saying that the whole thing is a staged-managed fiction by the Iraqi "puppets" of the evil Bushites.

[Coyote]

I haven't seen a goddamned thing so far even suggesting that there's an Arab/Iranian/Muslim version of the International Brigades ...

What I am asking is, do you believe there is no foreign influence worth mentioning over here? That all resistance worth the name is wholly local in scope and it is the result of the US's "nazi-like" actions?

As far as the torture, rape and murder goes: It's what happens when one group of people has absolute control over another and has reason to believe it has a legal, moral or divine sanction to do as it pleases. So no Coyote, there isn't anything Arab about molesting boys,

I suggest "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom" by TE Lawrence. Not just the Turkish rape where Lawrence is buggered as a means to demonstrate power and to break him, but also the questionable ambiquity of his relationship with a young Arab boy. Use of boys for sex is not limited to Arab culture, but it is common here and largely ignored since boys provide the outlet that is denied ot men since women, specifically, are to be left off-limits by the Qur'an.

Molestation, rape and torture are what you get when a clique is given control over others with no accountability. What on Earth did Brigham Young and Mao have in common other than being absolute leaders and screwing as many underage girls as they could get their hands on?

And, some say, Gandhi. I am not arguing your words here-- that is why rape is a power issue more than it is a sex issue. But if this interpreter, "Abu Hamid" (which sounds like a nom de guerre to me, not his real name) comes form a culture where buggering boys is seen as par for the course in th eroutine job of breaking others, then that explains (but by no means excuses) his actions.

Still, the US troops there should have stopped it. Bear in mind, again, that many people associated with Abu Ghraib scandals are being hauled in for questioning, including I believe that female general, I forget her name... It is not yet over and it is not a matter of policy for troops to do this.

The Abu Ghraib troops were under the impression that what they were doing was "Okay'd" by the higher ups to "break" the prisoners. OTOH, those of us in the field and at our POW processing camps (I've seen two of them) are allowed very little leeway in prisoner treatment. We are actually under strict orders not to hurt them in any way-- primarily because of a lot of sensitivity over here in wake of the Abu Ghraib incident.

What this tell sme is that in some areas, for certain reasons, handfuls of troops were given the green light to go overboard. That does not make it a epidemic of over-all abuse by every soldier. The way you conduct your words here leads me to believe that you think this is the case-- if I've misinterpreted, let me know...

That's why POW detention facilities are supposed to be open for inspection to the Red Cross or similar groups. It's why senior officers are supposed to ride herd herd on the prisons, with surprise inspections to make sure this kind of shit doesn't happen. The Geneva Conventions weren't invented by peaceniks. They were created by people who knew what would -not could-happen to prisoners and civilians without tight controls. It was also a reaction against the way the Nazis had abused the earlier Geneva and Hague Conventions.

The whole business of handing over prisoners to third parties (which Numbnuts, Assholecroft and Dumbsfeld have approved of) is a good case in point. It's against the GC. Why? Because the Nazis used to round up Jews and others and instead of killing them off themselves, handed them over to mobs, militias, local police and quislings and let them do the dirty work. The SS treated Latvian and Lithuanian mass lynchings of Jews as a spectator sport. So, the Bush junta has been outsourcing torture of prisoners by sending them to countries that do the deed.

We are in agreement here.

The fact that the current regime in Washington has flouted the law on so many counts -and is stupid enough to brag about it!- means that the rebels in Iraq are only going to grow stronger. If the administration had been on its best behavior, it might have been possible to prevent the chaos in Iraq now. What little chance there was of winning over the people in that country is gone forever.

Here I do not think it is as bad as you say, but I do recognize that the Administrations handling of the war and its aftermath made a lot of things more difficult than they had to be. We could be a lot farther along than we are...

[Elfdart]

I haven't seen a goddamned thing so far even suggesting that there's an Arab/Iranian/Muslim version of the International Brigades ...

What I am asking is, do you believe there is no foreign influence worth mentioning over here? That all resistance worth the name is wholly local in scope and it is the result of the US's "nazi-like" actions?

I'm sure you could find some Saudis, Jordanians (like Zarqawi) stirring up shit in Iraq. But the vast majority are locals. If they were largely foreigners, I doubt the locals would aid them. Syrians have their own fish to fry in Lebanon, so I should think that any Syrians going into Iraq are do-it-yourselfers -especially since Damascus doesn't want to provoke the US. Iranians? This is where the story falls apart. The rebellion is mostly in the "Sunni Triangle". Why the fuck would Iranians (almost all of whom are Shiite) want to lift a finger to help Sunnis, who were Saddam's main supporters? If there were infiltrators from Iran helping the Shiites in Basra, you'd have a point.

How many "foreign fighters" do you think are coming to Iraq? Let me give you an example: In the war in Spain 1936-1939, @ 3000 Americans volunteered to fight in what became known as the Abraham Lincoln Battalion. Not even Franco or Goebbels would have been daft enough to say that the war in Spain was the work of the Americans. The Lincolns weren't considered all that important (even after Jarama).I have seen no evidence for that many interlopers in Iraq.

As far as the torture, rape and murder goes: It's what happens when one group of people has absolute control over another and has reason to believe it has a legal, moral or divine sanction to do as it pleases. So no Coyote, there isn't anything Arab about molesting boys,

I suggest "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom" by TE Lawrence. Not just the Turkish rape where Lawrence is buggered as a means to demonstrate power and to break him, but also the questionable ambiquity of his relationship with a young Arab boy. Use of boys for sex is not limited to Arab culture, but it is common here and largely ignored since boys provide the outlet that is denied ot men since women, specifically, are to be left off-limits by the Qur'an.

Turks aren't Arabs.

Molestation, rape and torture are what you get when a clique is given control over others with no accountability. What on Earth did Brigham Young and Mao have in common other than being absolute leaders and screwing as many underage girls as they could get their hands on?

And, some say, Gandhi. I am not arguing your words here-- that is why rape is a power issue more than it is a sex issue. But if this interpreter, "Abu Hamid" (which sounds like a nom de guerre to me, not his real name) comes form a culture where buggering boys is seen as par for the course in th eroutine job of breaking others, then that explains (but by no means excuses) his actions.

Still, the US troops there should have stopped it. Bear in mind, again, that many people associated with Abu Ghraib scandals are being hauled in for questioning, including I believe that female general, I forget her name... It is not yet over and it is not a matter of policy for troops to do this.

The Abu Ghraib troops were under the impression that what they were doing was "Okay'd" by the higher ups to "break" the prisoners. OTOH, those of us in the field and at our POW processing camps (I've seen two of them) are allowed very little leeway in prisoner treatment. We are actually under strict orders not to hurt them in any way-- primarily because of a lot of sensitivity over here in wake of the Abu Ghraib incident.

What this tell sme is that in some areas, for certain reasons, handfuls of troops were given the green light to go overboard. That does not make it a epidemic of over-all abuse by every soldier. The way you conduct your words here leads me to believe that you think this is the case-- if I've misinterpreted, let me know...

1) I don't blame all or most US troops for this kind of bullshit. Most people abide by the rules.

2) My real anger is not aimed at lowly perps like Pvt England, although I think they deserve a nice long "time out" in Levenworth. It's aimed at the assholes of the Bush junta who made it clear that norms of decent human conduct didn't apply to them. As the Greeks say: The fish rots head first. The guards at Abu Ghraib might get their just desserts. Alberto Gonzales wrote a legal brief for the White House claiming that the laws of war AND the rule of law did not apply in this war. He's being promoted to Attorney General.

3) If you ask the average Iraqi, I'll bet they don't really give a shit if the torture, rape and murder was only done by a few bad apples. They want the US out and if they're not willing to take up arms themselves, they'll egg on those who do.

Here I do not think it is as bad as you say, but I do recognize that the Administrations handling of the war and its aftermath made a lot of things more difficult than they had to be. We could be a lot farther along than we are...

I was (and still am) against the invasion of Iraq on principle. Self-defense is the only just reason for a war. Iraq was no threat and the Bush junta knew it. I am also against it on legal grounds: Congress did not declare war. But even if the war was somehow justified, it's been a total fuck-up. Bush Sr said he didn't finish off Iraq in 1991 because he didn't have enough men to occupy the country -when he had over half a million at his disposal. Numbnuts doesn't have even half that many. The atrocities that people approved, or dismiss out of hand like that shitstain Senator Inhofe did only made it worse.

[Imperial Overlord]

I don't think there is much disagreement on this board about the foreign fighter issue.

We seem to pretty much agree on these generalities:

1) That the promotion of foreign fighters as the "evil masterminds" is full of shit.

2) That there are foreign fighters and they do have some influence on events.

3) That they majority of the problem is local.

P.S. Good luck Coyote. Stay safe.