Would you get rid of Israel?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Second-class citizens. There are limitations based on one's ethnic background, and the country is founded and ideologically based on ethnocentrism. This is racism.

[Lord Zentei]

Why should Jews be given sole rights to create a state that bars other ethnic groups from becoming citizens? It's not as if they are the only people to have been persecuted throughout history, is it? This point is of particular import when one considers the fact that the Israeli state was created after the ethnic cleansing of millions of people.

Look at the guy who can't read! People of other ethnic groups can become citizens, join the military, and serve in parliment.

They are preventing the palestinians from returning to their homes, specifically to keep Israel Jewish. And you have not adressed the other point I made.

[Lord Zentei]

Germany was a republic until Hitler was appointed Chancellor, at which point all democratic institutions were eliminated. Remember, Hitler was appointed Chancellor by a democratically elected Prime Minister. It was AFTER Hitler took power, and eliminated these democratic institutions, that Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, Communists, and others were murdered.

An unstable state with no prior experience with democracy, and which fell in no small part due to the Great Depresstion.

Besides which, you still haven't answered the question. What would you do with Israel?

Yes, I fucking have answered your question. Read my previous post.

Do you think a two state system is a bad idea? If so, why?

It is better than the current situation, certainly. It is not perfect because it would fail to adress the right of return for the refugees, and would base citizenship upon ethnic/religious parameters (it may be that this is the only viable option for now, but that doesn't excuse Israel's wrongdoings).

[Elfdart]

Why should Jews be given sole rights to create a state that bars other ethnic groups from becoming citizens? It's not as if they are the only people to have been persecuted throughout history, is it? This point is of particular import when one considers the fact that the Israeli state was created after the ethnic cleansing of millions of people.

Look at the guy who can't read! People of other ethnic groups can become citizens, join the military, and serve in parliment.

The only people with full rights are those with matrilineal Jewish ancestry or those goyim who convert to Orthodox Judaism. This leads to the absurdities the late great Israel Shahak described: Russians, Americans, and Brazilians with no Jewish ancestry convert, move to Israel and get full citizenship rights and Palestinians are Ku Kluxed from their homes (sometimes the IDF bulldozes the homes with the owners still inside) to make room for them. This kind of demented ethnic cleansing would be comical were it not for the people being murdered and the animosity my country has earned because when (for example) a Palestinian child is gunned down by a cackling IDF officer, much of his equipment has "MADE IN U.S.A." stamped on it.

[Stravo]

because when (for example) a Palestinian child is gunned down by a cackling IDF officer, much of his equipment has "MADE IN U.S.A." stamped on it.

Elfdart let's tone the bullshit down a notch, mustache twirling and general evil thngs like cackling with glee is not anything we've seen on any news reports no matter how you might feel about the situation it's a flamebait statement.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

In more than one thread on this board I have seen completely unrelated topics descend into criticism of Israel or Jews in general. Now I don't know any of you people, so I don't know what your reasons for going on these diatribes are. Maybe you don't like Jews, maybe you don't like Israel's politics, maybe you just like to argue. I don't know.

We all know that Israel exists and that it has conquered land from Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon over the years to expand its borders. Whether you like it or not, Israel is there to stay.

What I would like to know, specifically from those of you who keep saying Israel should never have been created or that it is a racist state, is the following:

You are assuming far too much about ppl here. If you wanted a civil discussion about Israel there are different ways to got about it.

1. If the State of Israel were disbanded tomorrow, what would you replace it with?

That's an extreme policy to follow. Personally I don't think there should be a either an Israeli state or a Palestinian one. My extreme solution would be a forced integration, with a secular government (democracy) that would never take any apartheid policy on one side or the other.

2. What would you do with the millions of Jewish citizens who have moved to Israel (i.e., where would you put them)?

Right where they are now, minus an apartheid government.

3. What would you do to ensure that a genocide against said Jewish citizens does not occur?

Whos to say that they won't commit atrocities themselves. There's no such policy in the world that can can stop a Geoncide from happening. (short of war) Even then it's still problematic to solve it to say the least.

Only one rule: Address the questions; there are no cop-outs by saying Israel has no right to exist.

Your questions are kind of silly and the whole premise of your post is questionable.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

I think it would have been better for everybody if the Jewish state had been set up on that plot in Kenya they were offered at the turn of the century.

No no no. Not in my country!!

I think that a similar problem would ensue there.

[Predator]

The simplest option would be to combine Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza into one country in which everyone has equal rights (including property rights) before the law regardless of religion or ethnic background.

If that means Israel no longer exists as an officially Jewish state, so be it. The best thing the US founders did was put an end to this country being an officially Christian nation with the First Amendment.

I endorse Elfdart's proposal wholeheartedly. It is the best compromise given the current situation - there are many Palestinians who would wish to return to their homes and the land that was confiscated from them, and they deserve justice, yet simultaneously there are now generations of Israelis who, as others have pointed out, are now also native to the land.

Once the one state option has been implemented, a process of redressing the injustices can begin. Where Palestinians can return to the specific land they used to occupy, they should be allowed to. Where they cannot, they should be compensated.

The one state option is the only solution that will allow all people involved to feel secure about the limited resources they rely upon in the region. Where the two state option would make the new Palestinian state dependent upon Israel to send some portion of the available water in the region their way, the one state option allows the resources to be distributed fairly, and be more easily seen to be distributed fairly.

Of course there will be problems. There will still be huge amounts of lingering hate, and fundamentalists on both sides who still believe their people should be sole occupiers of the land. Israel, if the people choose to keep this name, will need a lot of outside economic assistance, as the nation will face some of the same economic problems that the re-unified Germany has had and continues to face. For a while, there will still be suicide bombings and riots and all of that - the key to success is that the nation weathers this, treats all involved humanely and truly equally, and improves the quality of life for all, especially those starting at such a disadvantage coming from the former occupied territories. It may take a long time, but eventually the hatred will wane.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Why do some people equate criticism of Israel with anti-Semeticm? Hell, if I criticise the People's Republic of China's human rights record am I being a racist? If I criticize President Mugabe of Zimbabwe and his government am I being an Imperialist since I'm also European? (His spin-doctors would actually say "yes" to that question).

The fact that the State of Israel is a racist state does not mean that the Jews would be expelled from the Levant if they changed their policies. The fact that the formation of the State of Israel was a mistake does not mean that people saying so are anti-Semetic.

I never got that myself. If Pro-Israelis to come across as credible they need to drop that childish stance of "you can't critcize us!! You are are Jew hater" .

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Besides which, you still haven't answered the question. What would you do with Israel? Do you think a two state system is a bad idea? If so, why?

Since You changed the Parameters. I'll answer this question as well. I don't think either side deserves a state to call their own. Mostly b/c I think at this point with all the strong feelings, hatred and borderline Jingoist nationalism that has developed over this period of time is unhealthy. I think it would be foolish for anybody to think that either side would be appeased with a two state system. IMO, I think there would a continuation of the conflict and possibly a war.

I think that dissolving the Current Government, (and renaming the country a neutral name) and installing a Secular Democracy, plus a policy on intergration (forced if necessary) would be a better, but very exteme way to go about healing that area. But who really know how that area can heal for sure??

[tharkûn]

I endorse Elfdart's proposal wholeheartedly. It is the best compromise given the current situation - there are many Palestinians who would wish to return to their homes and the land that was confiscated from them, and they deserve justice, yet simultaneously there are now generations of Israelis who, as others have pointed out, are now also native to the land.

Oh yes wonderful idea, we saw how well lumping togethor people who don't want one government worked in Yugoslavia. We may get to see it again in Iraq. A single state would be a wonderful way to invite a massive wave of violence.

On right of return, I'm sorry but at some point in time you need a statute of limitations and say that it happened 6 decades ago, get over it.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

I endorse Elfdart's proposal wholeheartedly. It is the best compromise given the current situation - there are many Palestinians who would wish to return to their homes and the land that was confiscated from them, and they deserve justice, yet simultaneously there are now generations of Israelis who, as others have pointed out, are now also native to the land.

Oh yes wonderful idea, we saw how well lumping togethor people who don't want one government worked in Yugoslavia. We may get to see it again in Iraq. A single state would be a wonderful way to invite a massive wave of violence.

It's no more riskier than faction off too gorups who are strongly nationalistic and that have hard feeling toward each other, and divide the land. (who really knows how) Doning that will lead to harder feeling since both side will probably still want more land or a particular spot. Separation, also creates more prejudice among the separated groups.

On right of return, I'm sorry but at some point in time you need a statute of limitations and say that it happened 6 decades ago, get over it.

True.

[Predator]

Oh yes wonderful idea, we saw how well lumping togethor people who don't want one government worked in Yugoslavia.

Yugoslavia is not a valid comparison, there are too many differences.

We may get to see it again in Iraq.

I doubt we will, Iraqis I've spoken to indicate that their national identify overrides their differences. If it does happen though, the way the occupation and reconstruction is being run will have encouraged it. There are again too many differences.

Strangely enough, a more valid comparison, South Africa, shows that civil war isnt necessarily the outcome of such a proposal.

A single state would be a wonderful way to invite a massive wave of violence.

As opposed to the many large waves of violence that will be endured indefinitely.

On right of return, I'm sorry but at some point in time you need a statute of limitations and say that it happened 6 decades ago, get over it.

I agree there has to be astatute of limitations on land claims, but that limitation cannot be arbitrary, and certainly cannot apply to the generation that experienced it. That is why I support Palestinian right of return, and do not support, for example, Maori land claims, preferential treatment for Native Americans, and so forth.

I do not know where the line must be drawn. But I know that to draw it here would be grossly unjust.

[Quadlok]

Now, I know this is something that neither the Jews nor the Palistinians would ever accept, but I've always thought the best solution would be to find a couple of widely seperated third world nations willing to exchange a couple billion dollars in cash in return for a few thousand square miles of territory to become the new states of Israel and Palestine. The Holy Land itself would become some sort of UN protectorate.

More practically, the single secular state option seems best, although still not very good.

[Ace Pace]

No. Despite their pariah status, they contribute way too much in terms of engineering, computer software, and biotechnology to safely dump.

For example, if you use most instant messaging software (AIM, for example), you're using Israeli software.

Same with using a Centrino processor.

Same with using Windows XP. Or using that newfangled ultrasound technology to destroy tumors.

Don't forget the new Yonah core for the laptops.


1) I belive both groups of people can live in peace, a federal state with smaller regions being split up along regional but not ethnic lines.

2)They can emigrate, or stay there, frankly, if the state wasn't jewish, I have no doubt a majority of seculer jews would pack up and high tail it to the U.S.

3) Simple, checks and balences in the goverment, and since the U.S isn't getting out of Iraq soon, their nearby to respond to any massaceres.

[tharkûn]

It's no more riskier than faction off too gorups who are strongly nationalistic and that have hard feeling toward each other, and divide the land. (who really knows how) Doning that will lead to harder feeling since both side will probably still want more land or a particular spot. Separation, also creates more prejudice among the separated groups.

Which is why you build a large bloody wall in bewteen the groups and set up mutual border patrols to keep them apart. As far as more prejudice, Hamas already wants to kill the Jews, Kahane Chai isn't that far behind in the other direction.

Seperate states aren't going to go to war because the military imbalance is going to be too great. This irregular combat we've been seing would be dramatically curtailed if the Palestinians didn't have ready made targets in settlers and occupation troops and had to negotiate something akin to the Gaza wall.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I'm not really an expert in politics, but the way I see it, Israeli government treats Moslems as second class citizen (probably it's an euphemism). Getting rid of Israel and build an Arab country wouldn't help either, as it would be likely to REVERSE the situation where Arabs would treat Jews as second-class as well.

So I think the most appropriate solution is installed a new, TRUE SECULAR country, where Jews and Moslems could live together in an equal playing grounds, without religion-based discrimination whatsoever. Maybe the country should be given a new name?

Of course, the solution could be hard to implement. But considering that conflicts between Israel government and Arab citizen is based on religious sentiment, I believe that true secular government would be the most fair solution to both sides.

[Faqa]

Personally, I say people who screech "integration" are missing the point .If Israel is no longer a Jewish State, it might as well have never existed(and allow me to assure you, the Arabs in the area would be much worse off if it hadn't... but that's not the point).

NO Israeli would agree to such a solution. Not a one. It would stir up the mother of all shitstorms. Why are so many assuming it's this or the current situation? Me personally, I like our PM's plan(yes, I AGREE with Sharon... sad). Get out, grab our settlers, and tell the Palestinians "Here, you got it. Now fuck off...". Seal us off from each other. No contact. Both sides get shoot-on-sight OK for anyone crossing the border(with a SMALL pass-through zone to connect Gaza and the WB. It's neutral, so we can both pass and watch the other side. Borders of this zone are just as strictly controled). No jobs without Israeli employers, guys? Harsh measures make it hard to smuggle weapons in? Too bad, so sad. You wanted it. Go away. Heck, throw the border to include Israeli Arab villages close to it as well - they're always vocal about their Palestinian "brothers". Here, you can live with them now(it's the same area, just a different state)....

I'm just damned tired of it all. Let's solve this already, Iron-Curtain style.

[Ace Pace]

Don't forget, the Harridim want Greater Israel? give them some sticks and stones, tell them thats how David won wars, and throw them over the border heavily laddened with smelly food sure to draw everyone.

[Faqa]

The more I read that, Ace, the more I like it...

But damn, I want IN on the Haredic-killing action!!!!

[Big Phil]

So we've got two solutions:

1. Israel allows the Palestinians to become citizens and we merge Israel and Palestine, thus destroying the State of Israel. If you don't think a plurality of Palestinians would move immediately to make Jews second class citizens in such a nation, then you've got a screw loose. This is a recipe for disaster.

2. Israel remains Jewish, Palestine (West Bank and Gaza) become a Palestinian State that is Muslim. They can have whatever kind of government they choose. The Jewish settlers are given two choices, clear the hell out of Gaza and the West Bank, or become Palestinian citizens and deal with the consequences.

I've already said I think #2 is the only viable solution, but it'll be tough for Sharon to ramrod this through.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

So we've got two solutions:

1. Israel allows the Palestinians to become citizens and we merge Israel and Palestine, thus destroying the State of Israel. If you don't think a plurality of Palestinians would move immediately to make Jews second class citizens in such a nation, then you've got a screw loose. This is a recipe for disaster.

Not necesarily if the government is SECULAR, strong, and fair. Maybe if the merged state is lead by some benevolent, atheist dictatorship.... I admit that this seems to be an impossibly ideal conditions, though.

[Coyote]

The thing is, you have in both populations who are ready and willing to say "lets have peace" and are willing to endores a two-state solution willingly.

But there are also too many people in both societies that are irreconcilably racist. Replacing "racist Israel" with "racist Palestine" is not the best solution, either.

Probably the most realistic solution is a two-state solution with a border fence or wall, and there will be years of cold, cold peace between the two. They'll both have to grit their teeth and bear the occassional terrorist attack from dissatisfied fucktards on both sides who take potshots at the other.

[Darth Wong]

A two-state solution will never work because none of the Israelis believe in it. For example, they all believe they have some kind of divine right to Palestine's water supply. When Israelis say "two state", they mean "one master, one slave".

PS. The "two state" solution is probably most accurately described as "two equal and opposite side-by-side apartheid states, one of which is in a position of control". I honestly don't see how this can be anything but a blueprint for a never-ending border war, like India/Pakistan.

[Predator]

Personally, I say people who screech "integration" are missing the point .If Israel is no longer a Jewish State, it might as well have never existed(and allow me to assure you, the Arabs in the area would be much worse off if it hadn't... but that's not the point).

For Israel to never hav existed would be a wonderful alternative. Believe me, I'm not missing the point.

I'd like you to back up your claim that Arabs in the area would be much worse off if Israel hadnt existed. 800,000 Palestinians cleansed from Palestine have lived better lives because of it? The people in the Gaza Strip and West bank, some of the poorest areas of the world and under continuous siege and oppression are better off for Israel's existence?

You're going to need one brilliant argument to make that case.

You know, you say no Israeli would accept the one state solution. I say tough. No Palestinian would have accepted the current situation if they'd been offered any choice either.

1. Israel allows the Palestinians to become citizens and we merge Israel and Palestine, thus destroying the State of Israel. If you don't think a plurality of Palestinians would move immediately to make Jews second class citizens in such a nation, then you've got a screw loose. This is a recipe for disaster.

No, it's the only recipe for success in the longterm. This new secular state must have a constitution that prohibits racial or religious discrimination, and the US, and UN be prepared to support it and actively defend it.

Probably the most realistic solution is a two-state solution with a border fence or wall, and there will be years of cold, cold peace between the two. They'll both have to grit their teeth and bear the occassional terrorist attack from dissatisfied fucktards on both sides who take potshots at the other.

Israel has never respected the territorial sovereignty of its neighbours in the past, why believe that it would do so for a Palestinian state? More likely you'll see bombing raids on buildings where Palestinian terrorists might reside - sorry about the dozen children killed - and you still have the problem of scarce resources being controlled by Israel.

I also see an inherent unfairness in the idea of "Lets have two states and leave each other alone starting from... now!". In this scenario, Israel gets all of the good and developed land and Palestine gets a ruined ghetto. There's an injustice that needs to be rectified before the score is reset to 0. That will never happen, and for that reason, no matter how content Israelis might hypothetically be to live in Israel and leave the Palestinians alone, Palestinians will still be crying for vengeance with plenty of ammunition for the recruitment of suicide bombers and fighters.