the anthropomorphic nature of Star Wars aliens

[Duckie]

to above: because of the EXTREME unliklihood of such lifeform arising, even on an earthlike planet.

if earth started over again, you wouldn't find insects, crabs, mammals, birds, reptiles, nothing would be familiar.

now if you repeated earth a million times, you might see some similarities between them. but its still quite a low probability.

Of course, because a Reptile is such an unworkable concept that it's only on Earth by an accident.

Just like how Sharks and Dolphins don't have the same body form even though it's the best for their environment. Oh wait.

[Petrosjko]

well it would make the most sense.

note: the existence of the Preservers is the ONLY possible way to make Spock's Vulcan/Human ancestry even remotely possible.

Oooooooh... Star Trek special interbreeding is a very painfully offensive can of worms to anybody with the most basic of biological knowledge. The writers just cheerfully assume that anybody can knock anybody up.

But (as DW covered in the canon database, I believe) even if one seeded various worlds with precursor lifeforms of the same patterns, a few million years of evolution would render them genetically incompatible anyway.

[SirNitram]

Let's see, why might alot of species be, quote, mankind, unquote.

Well, our newbie seems characterize 'manlike' as probably the shape of a humanoid. Let's look at the general shape, shall we?

Walking upright means your forelegs become arms; arms mean they don't have to support your weight, so you can get on with the fine manipulators. Fine manipulators are pretty much the centre of toolmaking. So there's why they stand up.

Why would the heads be on top.. Best view, of course. And having your brain well above the ground and, thus, higher away from predators is handy.

So there's the general shape...

Why carbon-based? It's rather obvious. Carbon is the most likely to form life, by a massive margin. Though, as has been pointed out, silicon-based lifeforms exist. Hell, they evolve in asteroid belts, apparently(Actually, where the hell DID mynocks come from?).

The complaint about 'They can't possibly be reptilian, because there could never be reptiles elsewhere! Never!' is a rather silly comment, because, very simply, we don't really know. We've never been out there and seen whether life follows a few basic patterns or goes into infinite variety. It's certainly extremely arrogant to say 'It must be this way and can't be anything else' when you've got nothing to back it up.

Others have handled the rest. At the centre is the real answer:

It's a story, and thus the things with in must be relatable to the reader.

[Stofsk]

that's just the problem. far too many starwars creatures are described as "reptilian" or "snake-like". the fact that they resemble earth creatures is scientifically laughable.

surely there can be no reptiles anywhere but earth in the galaxy, so Trandoshans and Falleens are impossible.

Why?

because they're described as reptiles, basically. they have cold blood, scales, lay eggs, the works.

to above: because of the EXTREME unliklihood of such lifeform arising, even on an earthlike planet.

if earth started over again, you wouldn't find insects, crabs, mammals, birds, reptiles, nothing would be familiar.

now if you repeated earth a million times, you might see some similarities between them. but its still quite a low probability.

You know, there may not BE any alien lifeforms out there. On the other hand, there may be any number of infinite patterns life may take on alien worlds. There is just no way to know for sure. All you've stated is that there is an extreme unlikelihood that a reptillian lifeform may arise on an alien world. I can say that there is already an extreme unlikely chance there is ANY alien lifeform out there, but that's REAL LIFE. Star Wars makes no pretentions about being factual or accurate. As SirNitram said, it's a story first, and as such MUST hold something in it for the reader or viewer to relate with.

As for the bolded part of your statement, what do you base that on out of curiosity? Furthermore, if true, why would this PRECLUDE the possibility of reptilian sapient species arising on alien worlds? If as you say, if earth were 'redone' countless times you would get countless variations, and this were to play out on untold millions of planets in a single galaxy, then a reptile sapient is nevertheless possible, no matter how unlikely. How unlikely are we humans? Yet we exist.

[Petrosjko]

What particular reptiloid defining characteristics are we referring to, anyway?

Ectothermic? Can't see why that's unlikely.

Scaly skin? Again, possible.

Where it breaks down with Star Wars and most space opera fiction is in the fact that we have certain mental associations with these traits. For example, reptiloid species automatically conjures up the image of serpent mythos- treacherous, possessed of a cold-blooded mentality, etc. Likewise for the endless variations on the felinoid aliens, which tend to be extremely feral, fastidious, etc.

[Stofsk]

What particular reptiloid defining characteristics are we referring to, anyway?

He seemed to be referring to traits in general, and the only reason why I took issue with it is because I, like some of the posters here, have my own home-grown scifi universe which include reptilioids. If for no other reason to address some of those points you just raised, such as the generic 'cold blooded mentality' that dominates, it's still a worthwhile discussion.

[Petrosjko]

What particular reptiloid defining characteristics are we referring to, anyway?

He seemed to be referring to traits in general, and the only reason why I took issue with it is because I, like some of the posters here, have my own home-grown scifi universe which include reptilioids. If for no other reason to address some of those points you just raised, such as the generic 'cold blooded mentality' that dominates, it's still a worthwhile discussion.

Well, for a space opera those quick associations can work fine as a setting element.

"Hello, it's cat aliens. They'll be prickly, honor-bound warriors."

It makes for ease of exposition.

But if you're taking it in another direction in your setting, that's definitely cool. Push the envelope, brother.

[Illuminatus Primus]

SWTC: Humans & Humanoids

[HemlockGrey]

Could be that in the millions of years that the SW galaxy has existed, there has been serious genetic tweaking of the inhabitants for some reason or another.

[Mange]

Anthropomorphic nature? Haven't you seen Star Trek? While most of the alien species are of an anthropomorphic nature, there are some that aren't (such as some of the creatures, the dianoga for example). The most obvious explanation is that the audience must understand the alien species. However, in the context we're discussing, we must ignore that. The most likely thing is that the anthropomorphic look of the various alien species is due to random evolutionary factors.

[wolveraptor]

that's just the thing. its completely random. assuming every star wars planet is earth-like (which they seem to be), then you might have quite a few humanoid specimens, but you should have an equal number of aquatic sentient beings, or 6 legged beings, descended from arthropods. you don't, and that's what i'm ranting about.

reptilian species: the way these species are described in star wars, it appears that they have directly descended from earth reptiles. the time scale of star wars doesn't allow for that.

thus, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that a sentient species should arise with ALL of the physiological characteristics of the class Reptillia. they may be ectothermic, they might have scales, but they shouldn't resemble our reptiles SO much. its just a lack of imagination on the part of the Producers. it is very tempting to create creatures we can relate to, but one cannot go around saying they are actually plausible.

besides, Star Wars goes under the assumption that the terms endothermic and ectothermic can be applied to all races. some may not even have blood.

i am also bothered that species arising in completely foreign environments to humans still develop humanoid features. the Gand for example have both ammonia and oxygen on their planet. they should have VASTLY different ecosystems, and therefore, different morphologies.

[wolveraptor]

SWTC: Humans & Humanoids

this site makes the claim that humans affected the evolution of other sentient species in the incredibly short time-frame of a few hundred thousand years. aliens evolving on a distant planet would be lucky to reach a human form in 50 million years.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Perhaps with the aid of genetic manipulation as well. Martin already submitted reasons why a basic upright somewhat humanoid form was not all together unlikely in of itself. The human supremacy need only place evolutionary pressure for awhile to achieve the result.

[Jawawithagun]

that's just the thing. its completely random. assuming every star wars planet is earth-like (which they seem to be), then you might have quite a few humanoid specimens, but you should have an equal number of aquatic sentient beings, or 6 legged beings, descended from arthropods. you don't, and that's what i'm ranting about.

How do you know they don't exist? Did you already discount the Mon Calamari?
And generally speaking, by all we know today an aquatic environment is not beneficary to the development of sapience.
All you can safely say is that we don't SEE the species. And we don't see the majority of the SW galaxy inhabitants either. Or do you think ten or a hundred planets are representative of the billions of inhabited planets in existence in that 'verse?

reptilian species: the way these species are described in star wars, it appears that they have directly descended from earth reptiles. the time scale of star wars doesn't allow for that.

Explain.

thus, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that a sentient species should arise with ALL of the physiological characteristics of the class Reptillia. they may be ectothermic, they might have scales, but they shouldn't resemble our reptiles SO much. its just a lack of imagination on the part of the Producers. it is very tempting to create creatures we can relate to, but one cannot go around saying they are actually plausible.

Even as a SW producer you do not have unlimited funds and time to create a galaxy filled with alien species the audience cannot relate to. Furthermore you don't WANT TO create creatures the audience cannot relate to at all.

How much resemblance is too much resemblance?

besides, Star Wars goes under the assumption that the terms endothermic and ectothermic can be applied to all races. some may not even have blood.

Your point being?

i am also bothered that species arising in completely foreign environments to humans still develop humanoid features. the Gand for example have both ammonia and oxygen on their planet. they should have VASTLY different ecosystems, and therefore, different morphologies.

What SHOULD their morphology be?

[The Original Nex]

that's just the thing. its completely random. assuming every star wars planet is earth-like (which they seem to be), then you might have quite a few humanoid specimens, but you should have an equal number of aquatic sentient beings, or 6 legged beings, descended from arthropods. you don't, and that's what i'm ranting about.

Ever think that maybe the fully aquatic species don't get out as much to planets like Tatooine because they're aquatic and need to be fully submerged to survive?

As to the rest of your rant; yes. It's very unlikely that a scenario in which the body plans of the species in Star Wars would occur, but it's not impossible. Maybe the life in the Star Wars galaxy is the one a million chance that many of the worlds yeild species with similar body plans.

You're working under the assumption that extremely low odds, means impossibility. Not true. It means that it's very, very, very unlikely to occur, but still can.

[The Original Nex]

What SHOULD their morphology be?

Apparently he thinks they should be some sort of vortex....

[wolveraptor]

my whole point was that all of the "diverse" species of Star Wars just look like Humans with wierd skin and heads. the odds of that are as close to impossible as you can get.

the best explanation provided so far was that human superiority pressured the change of other sentient species to humanoid forms (mostly through genetic manipulation, i'd guess).

"Maybe the life in the Star Wars galaxy is the one a million chance that many of the worlds yeild species with similar body plans."

i found this statement laughable. its improbable enough that alien species should all resemble one another, but that they should all appear in the same galaxy is simply ludicrous (unless they only developed these forms in response to a single dominant species).

reptillian species: look, star wars takes place only a few hundred thousand years from the present, correct? it is impossible for Earth's reptiles to make the jump from their current stage to sentient humanoid in that time-frame. therefore, the only plausible explanation for Bossk and Xizor is that their species originally was very different from their current form, and that they genetically redesigned themselves to survive in a Human dominated galaxy.

what should aliens look like? hell if i know. but i know they shouldn't look like hollywood actors in suits.

someone brought up the Mon Calamari, which reminded of the Quarren, and how stupid they looked. a man with a squids head. that's all they frickin are.

Star Wars is fun, but it sure as hell isn't scientifically accurate, IMHO.

[UCBooties]

Imagine that, a series about using laser swords and psychic powers to battle evil isn't scientificly accurate. Suspension of disbelief means you take what your given on screen and try to figure out why it is that way, not say that it shouldn't be that way. Would it be fun to see the blobuloids of blobulon six? Yeah, it'd probably be intersting, and I'd be a big fan of the five legged spider people, but you want the designers to just have a feild day with no regard for technical workability or audience interest. Besides, your argument seems to boil down to, it can't be right because it's not how I think it should be. Well, you might raise some decent points about originality in charecter development, but the rest of it si so much whining. By the way, I'm interested in your statements about how we wouldn't have crabs or insects if someone hit the reset button, why not? If not, why did we get them this time around? If insects are so unviable, why are their thousands of species of insect? Next time why not start a topic with more than flailing complaints and broad generalizations?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Imagine that, a series about using laser swords and psychic powers to battle evil isn't scientificly accurate. Suspension of disbelief means you take what your given on screen and try to figure out why it is that way, not say that it shouldn't be that way. Would it be fun to see the blobuloids of blobulon six? Yeah, it'd probably be intersting, and I'd be a big fan of the five legged spider people, but you want the designers to just have a feild day with no regard for technical workability or audience interest. Besides, your argument seems to boil down to, it can't be right because it's not how I think it should be. Well, you might raise some decent points about originality in charecter development, but the rest of it si so much whining. By the way, I'm interested in your statements about how we wouldn't have crabs or insects if someone hit the reset button, why not? If not, why did we get them this time around? If insects are so unviable, why are their thousands of species of insect? Next time why not start a topic with more than flailing complaints and broad generalizations?

SoD, stupid.

[SirNitram]

my whole point was that all of the "diverse" species of Star Wars just look like Humans with wierd skin and heads. the odds of that are as close to impossible as you can get.

I eagerly await the evidence of this claim. I have been unable to locate anything accurately describing what aliens will be like that had any sort of reliability, but here you are with it!

the best explanation provided so far was that human superiority pressured the change of other sentient species to humanoid forms (mostly through genetic manipulation, i'd guess).

No, the best explanation was that it's a story. It's completely accurate. There's also the whole issue of the humanoid form being optimized for toolmaking species.

"Maybe the life in the Star Wars galaxy is the one a million chance that many of the worlds yeild species with similar body plans."

i found this statement laughable. its improbable enough that alien species should all resemble one another, but that they should all appear in the same galaxy is simply ludicrous (unless they only developed these forms in response to a single dominant species).

You know, the idea of many species undergoing large changes in the past 20,000 years in response to a less-than-absolute social condition is rather more unlikely than you actually having evidence for your BS.

reptillian species: look, star wars takes place only a few hundred thousand years from the present, correct? it is impossible for Earth's reptiles to make the jump from their current stage to sentient humanoid in that time-frame. therefore, the only plausible explanation for Bossk and Xizor is that their species originally was very different from their current form, and that they genetically redesigned themselves to survive in a Human dominated galaxy.

So many terribly, terribly stupid things in this paragraph.

1. We have no idea how long ago 'A long, long time ago' was. It could be a hundred years. It could be ten billion. So kindly don't BS.

2. Earth's reptiles are not an issue. Earth is not in the Galactic Empire's Galaxy.

3. The idea that these species redesigned themselves for this is rather an impressive display of ripping things from your ass.

(Admittably, I've spotted evidence that at least one sentient species.. The Wookie.. May be artificial, or at least tampered with. Is KoToR, the first one, still Spoiler territory?)

what should aliens look like? hell if i know. but i know they shouldn't look like hollywood actors in suits.

Really. And how do you know that? I see this vast gulf where you should be giving more to back up your BS about it being impossible.

someone brought up the Mon Calamari, which reminded of the Quarren, and how stupid they looked. a man with a squids head. that's all they frickin are.

Star Wars is fun, but it sure as hell isn't scientifically accurate, IMHO.

And no one claimed it was. Run along now.

[Jawawithagun]

someone brought up the Mon Calamari, which reminded of the Quarren, and how stupid they looked. a man with a squids head. that's all they frickin are.

So what about all these "stupid-looking" Earth animals? Lazy designers?
Exhibit 1, Exhibit 2, Exhibit 3 - they look stupid, they can't be real!
Or the most stupid-looking of them all, the fat weasel with a bill glued onto its face

And then of course there are the men in silly suits: Joe, Ted, Roger and Shaun

[wolveraptor]

you all seem to be taking offense to my statement that Star War's aliens are not plausible. why is that?

some of you are unable to understand that the humanoid form ISN'T the best for tool-making. It is simply a possibility for creatures that evolved in an earth-like environment. perhaps it is the best for ground-dwelling apes, but if wolves evolved intelligence, they sure as hell wouldn't look like wolf-men.

"3. The idea that these species redesigned themselves for this is rather an impressive display of ripping things from your ass."

i'm not even the one who made up the theory. it was Dr Curtis Saxton. don't blame me if it still sounds shitty.

what i meant by the quarren looking stupid is that they looked EXACTLY like some earth animal had been glued on to a man's face. to call them plausible aliens would be an affront to xenoscience.

some of you have been expecting me to tell you what aliens look like. hell if i know. all i know is that they'll be perfectly designed to their environments, like we are, and even if they evolve on an earth-like planet, they probably will not look like us.

[wolveraptor]

the precise combination of traits that define each group of animals and plants today makes it almost certain that when one replays earth's evolutionary history, one would not find those exact traits repeated. there may be insect-like creatures, but they could have 4 legs, just out of random probability.

that is why i say that restarting earth would not yield humans again. it is all due to chance.

note that i'm not just making up crap. i've read and confirmed this belief numerous times in books like, "what does a martian look like?" by Jack Cohen and sites like this http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... phism.html

this view is also supported by the fact that many events in our prehistory (asteroid strikes causing mass extinction) may or may not happen the second time. what if dinosaurs never became extinct? you certainly wouldn't have humans evolving then.

admittedly, there are some scientists who believe that anthropomorphic races could evolve on distant planets. however, these races would be well adapted to life in their ecosystems. they wouldn't just be men with mouse-heads.

even they admit that such life-forms would only be viable in earth-like environs.

[The Original Nex]

Take, for example, Dolphins. These are creatures that, one could argue, have achieved true sentience. However, their body plan is such that they cannot progress beyond their current state. They cannot use any sort of sophisticated tool that cannot be manipulated with the mouth. They have no manipulating digits.

Take, for example, Crows. These are creatures that, one could argue, have achieved true sentience. Their body plan is slightly more suited for tool-using than a Dolphin. They can manipulate a tool with both their mouth and feet. Given time, they could progress slightly, but their manipulating digits are still a little too restricting.

Take, for example, Chimpanzees. These are creatures that, one could argue, have achieved true sentience. They have an excellant body plan for using tools. They have four appendages allowing for tool manipulation two feet and two hands) plus their mouth. Given time, they could progress far beyond their present abilities not unlike our own ancestors did.

Why should a process be different on any other planet? We have several life forms on Earth that you could call truly sentient. But intelligence alone doesn't necesarilly allow a race to develop a civilization. You need to be able to manipulate things with some sort of appendage. Granted, this does not by any means mean that all civilized races will have two arms and two legs, but they need some sort of manipulating arm.

Then we get to the head placement. Heads placed high on the head allow for the senses to gather information more efficiantly. Look at all the relatively unrelated life forms on Eath whose heads have developed to be the highest point on the body. Camels and horses are very distantly related, but have very similar body plans.

You can continue with your impossibility rant, but it's not impossible. even if there's 10^-99 chance of something happening, it's still possible. So you really have no argument. You can't prove that it's impossible for many species from different planets to have similar body plans.

[wolveraptor]

you claim that heads must be positioned higher on the body plan. this is a very general statement and certainly doesn't apply in all scenarios. in an aquatic environment, up and down are more aribitrary.

it also depends on whether or not the race uses electromagnetic radiation in perception. inhabitants of a Red Dwarf star may rely completely upon thermal sensing.

the presence of a dominant, airborne predator may discourage the placement of heads atop the body. assuming the head contains the equivalent of the brain, one would want to keep it well protected.

underground, head placement would probably be lateral with the rest of the body, due to space constraints.

i fully agree with you that manipulatory organs are necessary for civilization, but surely hands aren't the only answer. there may even be ways of manipulating organs that are not physical. control of electromagnetic forces might allow a species to work with metals.

again, i am NOT trying to prove that these species couldn't possibly exist. but it is highly, highly, highly improbable, and a more likely galaxy would have residents of more varying body plans.