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Stormbringer wrote: Ah, a man of taste and discretion. I'd save Stackpole's X-wing novels and I,Jedi (not brilliantbut decent) but fuck the rest.

Fuck I forgot the Brian Daley Han Solo Trilogy.....add that too!

I think Lucas has become the typical studio exec.

Back when he was making the originals, he was still struggling. Now that he's wealthy and all...well, you get the point.




MONEY HAS CORRUPTED LUCAS!!!

MKSheppard wrote:

Stormbringer wrote: Ah, a man of taste and discretion. I'd save Stackpole's X-wing novels and I,Jedi (not brilliantbut decent) but fuck the rest.

Fuck I forgot the Brian Daley Han Solo Trilogy.....add that too!

And the Lando Calrissian Trilogy. But that's really all of the EU that deserves to be saved.

Shinova wrote:MONEY HAS CORRUPTED LUCAS!!!

Truer than most would like to admit.

Shinova wrote:I think Lucas has become the typical studio exec.

Back when he was making the originals, he was still struggling. Now that he's wealthy and all...well, you get the point.




MONEY HAS CORRUPTED LUCAS!!!

I think it has. And he's just become to infauated with the technology of film making sacrificing the heart of it. He's lost the passion that made him a good director in the first place.

All of this "George just wants more money" stuff smells like bullshit to me. We may not like certain directions he's taken, but if he just wanted to make more money, he could have very easily given us what we wanted. It's not as if the fanbase hasn't made its wishes clear, and it's not as if he doesn't know, despite his claims of being oblivious to that stuff.

But instead, he does some things (eg- TPM, which had almost no real fighting until the end) which are downright risky, and in many cases, goes against what everyone's telling him. Some people interpret that as arrogance. Maybe it is. But if he didn't care about the story and just wanted to pump more money into his bank account, he wouldn't be doing that. He would be listening to focus groups and trying to figure out what people want him to make.

I find the anti-Lucas sentiment to be surprising and a little disturbing. Why the vitriol? Do you feel this way about every director or producer whose work doesn't measure up in your opinion? I doubt it. I have also noticed that some of the most hardcore fans of SW are also the most vocal opponents of the prequels; it is my theory that when you have constructed a complete pre-history of SW in your mind, that you feel almost personally betrayed when GL doesn't conform to it.

Would I have changed TPM in many ways? Yes. Would I have changed AOTC in many ways? Absolutely (I need the equipment to make my own re-cut DVD from the official AOTC DVD). Am I happy about the idea of all stormies being clones, or Greedo shooting first? Of course not. I think it's downright moronic (although the former is not canon).

But let's not worship people like Zahn just because we're not wholly satisfied with the prequels. Most people are exaggerating the prequels' flaws (there's a difference between criticism and bashing), and while I like his writing style, let's face it; Zahn has no grasp whatsoever of the epic scale of the SW universe. If Zahn wrote AOTC, the separatists would have 30 star systems in one corner of a pie-shaped quadrant of the galaxy, and the Battle of Geonosis would have had a few hundred troops and 4 ships involved, but with really clever tactics. And we would be ranting and raving about how he's destroying SW from a different angle.

While I have argued in favour of the EU from the perspective of allowing Lucasfilm to decide what is and isn't valid, this should not be confused with fandom. I don't actually like a lot of the EU; it almost invariably downsizes Star Wars into bite-sized McStarWars pieces to make the writer's job easier (the Executor nearly "bankrupted" the Empire????), and if you think Boba's story prominence was a brain bug, take a good long look at the bullshit they routinely pull in the EU. The idea of flash-imprinting memories from one person onto another has no basis in canon (why the hell do they need to use torture droids to interrogate people if they can download their fucking memories?), and the EU is responsible for such idiocy as Zahn's "Unknown Regions", IG-88E taking over DS2, and that whole fucking biotech YV "singularity" bullshit.

To argue that these hacks should be writing the prequels is heresy. GL may be clumsy, but I'd rather not have prequels at all than leave them in the hands of the EU authors.

Thank Bog. Someone has finally brought some sanity into this thread.

Mike:

I'm not saying George Lucas has to do what we want. The problem is that the movies simply haven't been as good. They just lack the passion that the first trilogy did.

Stormbringer wrote:I'm not saying George Lucas has to do what we want. The problem is that the movies simply haven't been as good. They just lack the passion that the first trilogy did.

A point which is valid enough on its own, but which often degenerates into a series of wild personal attacks against George Lucas, followed by absolutely asinine claims that the hacks who write the EU would actually do a better job. In the case of this thread, it actually started with said attacks and wild-eyed claims of superior EU authorship.

Incidentally, the moment I read that IG-88 took over the DS2, I felt this immense, compelling urge to kill KJA.

Yet again.

Cyril wrote:Incidentally, the moment I read that IG-88 took over the DS2, I felt this immense, compelling urge to kill KJA.

Yet again.

At least it's strongly contradicted by RotJ.

Cyril wrote:Incidentally, the moment I read that IG-88 took over the DS2, I felt this immense, compelling urge to kill KJA.

Yet again.

I true warsie feels that all the time. His mere existance is an offense.

Judging by your opinions of KJA, I think even I can write better them him....

Darth Wong wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:I'm not saying George Lucas has to do what we want. The problem is that the movies simply haven't been as good. They just lack the passion that the first trilogy did.

A point which is valid enough on its own, but which often degenerates into a series of wild personal attacks against George Lucas, followed by absolutely asinine claims that the hacks who write the EU would actually do a better job. In the case of this thread, it actually started with said attacks and wild-eyed claims of superior EU authorship.

I think George Lucas does bear part of the blame. It's his vision and his baby; in the end he is repsonsible for it. Some of the comments about George Lucas are valid critisisms.

Some of them might do some what better for the prequels than George has done so far. I doubt it in most cases though.

I've said it before. Lucas has some good ideas and it is his baby. However, he has slipped in his skills and therefore the crew needs to step up. Including the producer, telling him that some stuff is just dumb, as well as assistant directors, telling him why some stuff is bad on film, and maybe even a co-writer, helping him write better stuff(some of the dialoge was pretty bad even considering Anakin's lack of pimpin' skillz). Oh and they should hire some acting coaching, some of the delivery was just horrendous.

Darth Wong wrote: But let's not worship people like Zahn just because we're not wholly satisfied with the prequels. Most people are exaggerating the prequels' flaws (there's a difference between criticism and bashing), and while I like his writing style, let's face it; Zahn has no grasp whatsoever of the epic scale of the SW universe. If Zahn wrote AOTC, the separatists would have 30 star systems in one corner of a pie-shaped quadrant of the galaxy, and the Battle of Geonosis would have had a few hundred troops and 4 ships involved, but with really clever tactics. And we would be ranting and raving about how he's destroying SW from a different angle.

Zahn did a poor job in terms of scale, in his first trilogy anyway, but Lucas has done little better. At Geonosis we saw four or five Republic ships each deploying maybe a thousand men to attack maybe 15-20 Trade Federation and Techno Union ships. Then we have the whole 200,000-clone nonsense. East Germany could deploy more troops then that, without reserves.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Zahn did a poor job in terms of scale, in his first trilogy anyway, but Lucas has done little better. At Geonosis we saw four or five Republic ships each deploying maybe a thousand men to attack maybe 15-20 Trade Federation and Techno Union ships.

And in "Saving Private Ryan", we saw only a few hundred men on each side. I suppose this means that it portrayed D-Day as an operation involving only a few hundred men?

Then we have the whole 200,000-clone nonsense. East Germany could deploy more troops then that, without reserves.

The first production batch off the line, with a million more well on the way (assuming that "unit" = "man", which is not necessarily true), and who knows how many more batches behind it at unspecified intervals. I don't see a problem with that, particularly since they could be churning out a million units every week for all we know. They probably threw the entire first group into the Geonosis attack, backed heavily with orbital fire support (the novel describes a space battle in addition to the ground battle).

Realize this...the EU is and has always been a method for GL to do two things. Expands on his story for his fans. Remember the EU was born out of the insatiable hunger by fans for more SW stories inbetween the three year long gaps in the movies. I remember the period between ESB and ROTJ as being particularly hard on me. So in order to satisfy this desire he started to allow other writers to make stories set in his universe with his characters.

The second purpose is intertwined with the first: Make money (Sorry Mike) GL is a shrewd business man, we're talking about the guy who brokered the first deal on merchandising before anyone had even heard of it. He eschewed pay in return for exclusive rights on merchandising and thats where he made his billions.

SO, the EU satisfied fan hunger and made him money. But in his mind the movies were everything, they were the true story, he would not hesitate for a moment invalidating the EU to get a point across for his story.

As I mentioned in another thread, someone asks him in a brainstorming session: "What color is Yoda's blood?" he does not stop to check the EU, does not ask if its been decided somewhere else. He stops, thinks about it and says: Green. Pulled it right out of his ass. And do you think ANYONE stopped to look in ANY of the EU books when he gave that answer to see if it conflicted? NO. The EU exists in its own little universe making GL tons of money. If he likes something from it he'll use it: Coruscant. BUt I doubt he would hesitate to do anything he wants to do just because some author he licensed wrote something different.

Why does this bother people? I really think the canoncity of the EU has been raised to a nearly Fundie level of sanctity. A level that GL obviously does not feel. Is the EU important? Sure. But the final arbitor is GL, ALWAYS and who the hell are we to say that he is ruining his story.

NO. MAYBE he's ruining what YOU think is Star Wars but he is NOT ruining HIS story.

Darth Wong wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:Zahn did a poor job in terms of scale, in his first trilogy anyway, but Lucas has done little better. At Geonosis we saw four or five Republic ships each deploying maybe a thousand men to attack maybe 15-20 Trade Federation and Techno Union ships.

And in "Saving Private Ryan", we saw only a few hundred men on each side. I suppose this means that it portrayed D-Day as an operation involving only a few hundred men?

Then we have the whole 200,000-clone nonsense. East Germany could deploy more troops then that, without reserves.

The first production batch off the line, with a million more well on the way (assuming that "unit" = "man", which is not necessarily true), and who knows how many more batches behind it at unspecified intervals. I don't see a problem with that, particularly since they could be churning out a million units every week for all we know. They probably threw the entire first group into the Geonosis attack, backed heavily with orbital fire support (the novel describes a space battle in addition to the ground battle).

In SPR we also troops from horizon to horizon. In AOTC we saw the edges of the battle.

The novel also confirms that unit=man. We saw a handful of ships; we saw one battle portrayed in the Command center in rather large scale. If there was significant other fighting going on then surely they'd split the screen to show the others. Nothing suggests there was other combat.

Stravo wrote:The second purpose is intertwined with the first: Make money (Sorry Mike) GL is a shrewd business man, we're talking about the guy who brokered the first deal on merchandising before anyone had even heard of it. He eschewed pay in return for exclusive rights on merchandising and thats where he made his billions.

Of course he's a shrewd businessman. But I was arguing against the annoying "GL doesn't care about the story, so long as he gets to line his pocketbook" bullshit. As I said before, he could have easily held focus groups and did whatever they wanted if that were true. The EU is not relevant to the question of whether GL is "ruining the prequels", as many people put it. I recognize that you're not saying this, but I just wanted to point out that GL is obviously in this to make money (as is everyone in Hollywood; the man who's in it for the sheer art is a naive fantasy) but that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't give a shit about the story, as his bashers keep saying.

Why does this bother people? I really think the canoncity of the EU has been raised to a nearly Fundie level of sanctity. A level that GL obviously does not feel. Is the EU important? Sure. But the final arbitor is GL, ALWAYS and who the hell are we to say that he is ruining his story.

I agree. I don't see what was wrong with the status quo where the EU was official but clearly subordinate and no one had a problem with that. Everyone seemed comfortable with this for years, until the prequels came out and people started looking for excuses to bash GL for not making the prequels they had envisioned in their heads for 20 years.

Sea Skimmer wrote:In SPR we also troops from horizon to horizon. In AOTC we saw the edges of the battle.

If we assume that this particular factory was the only target on the planet, yes. The more technologically advanced a war is, the more dispersed its actions will tend to be. However, I don't see any reason to leap to the conclusion that the Republic army was limited by the troops we saw deployed during the brief snippets of the Geonosis battle in that area, or that George Lucas' portrayal of the battle is similar to the kind of moronic downsizing that Zahn has committed. The battle of La Drang in Vietnam involved only 400 American servicemen; do we conclude that America had only 400 men?

The novel also confirms that unit=man.

Really? I still have to read that thoroughly, rather than skimming it.

We saw a handful of ships; we saw one battle portrayed in the Command center in rather large scale. If there was significant other fighting going on then surely they'd split the screen to show the others. Nothing suggests there was other combat.

They would not be concerned about combat farther away from their own location, so why would they show it? If you're in La Drang and you're sketching enemy troop positions, would you also throw up information about troops hundreds of miles away, just for good measure?

Darth Wong wrote: Of course he's a shrewd businessman. But I was arguing against the annoying "GL doesn't care about the story, so long as he gets to line his pocketbook" bullshit.

My complaint: the man's just too detached now. He's lost the fire he had when he made the OT.

Stravo wrote:Why does this bother people? I really think the canoncity of the EU has been raised to a nearly Fundie level of sanctity. A level that GL obviously does not feel. Is the EU important? Sure. But the final arbitor is GL, ALWAYS and who the hell are we to say that he is ruining his story.

NO. MAYBE he's ruining what YOU think is Star Wars but he is NOT ruining HIS story.

That's true. It's his story but the points is that so far it's not as good a quality of a story as the original. The quality of the films isn't as good. It has nothing to do with my vision, I just don't like them as much. Too much flash and to little heart.

At least it seems the level of insanity here has gone down. Lucas being removed from SW? It wouldn't be Star Wars anymore, no more than Trek was itself when it got handed to a pair of ignorant hacks who decided to write to a 'formula'.

I, myself, enjoyed both TPM and AOTC. Sure, I think TPM could have had some tune-ups. Yes, I think the editing of AOTC for IMAX vastly improved the movie(My magic DVD controls allowed me to match the edits). Of course, I can say the same for the original trilogy. Plenty of parts I would like to change.

I'm an avid EU fan(With the usual level of violence wished on KJA and Stackpole), but I knew, walking towards the theatre with my dad for Ep I, I would be seeing Lucas' vision of it. Not what dozens of other people have tried to capture in their novels.. Though Zahn is a great writer on small scales, and the Corellian Trilogy moved me, etc.. But what it was always going to be.

Going into AOTC, I knew Boba Fett would be changed. I suspected the Clone Wars would be changed. And you want the real truth, boys and girls? I loved it. Boba Fett as the clone of Jango was an angle I never suspected(This leads to interesting questions about Boba and the Stormtroopers that were made from his 'dad'.), the cloning facility awed me, the Acclamator's departing blew my socks clear across the room, and the revelation that Troopers = Clones brought a new level of 'hrm' to the original trilogy.

Now, I've explained why I think the 'contradictions' to continuity aren't as severe as everything thinks(Though it is a pity we have to remove Pelleaon's thoughtful reminscenses on the Clone Wars). This won't stop people from bitching, but I had to let this out.

Stormbringer: Maybe you don't like them for a different reason.

Tell me, would you ever really want to know how the Wicked Witch of the West got that way? Or is it better left shrouded in mystery? Ever wonder why origin myths tend to be vague rather than detailed?

Part of the magic of myth is the open ends, the unanswered questions, the sense of a past that is glorious and mysterious at the same time. Answering those questions punctures some of that magic, and can be downright tedious (look at the Silmarillion).