Neon Genesis Evangelion

[Joe]

That's one of the problems with some Eva fans.

Someone throws something out, and morons grasp on to it forever.

I sense hostility...

You have to understand just how many moronic Eva fans there are out there. Lots of stupid Shinji x Kaoru sites. Makes non-braindead fans angry.

[data_link]

That's one of the problems with some Eva fans.

Someone throws something out, and morons grasp on to it forever.

If you don't care, don't post here. I've got enough competition for post count as it is.

Let me see if I can help.

1) An Angel unites with Adam. That particular Angel achieves
Instrumentality with Adam, eradicating all other angels and the human
race in the process.

2) Lillith (humans) unites with Adam. Human instrumentality is achieved.

3) Lillith (humans) unites with Adam. Human instrumentality is started,
but is stopped by Shinji Ikari. This is the outcome that ultimately
occured.

I may be wrong about this.

You're on the right track but this still leaves unanswered the question of why seele thought that losing the lance of longhiness was a problem. Or why it should be nessecary to form the tree of life in order to initiate instrumentality. It's not so much the outcomes as the machinism that interests me.

Oh BTW, Shinji is definitely heterosexual. He forms a strong friendship with Kaworu, but there is no indication of any sexual interest.

[Pablo Sanchez]

You have to understand just how many moronic Eva fans there are out there. Lots of stupid Shinji x Kaoru sites. Makes non-braindead fans angry.

Much like the massive and incredibly vocal Gundam Wing yaoi fanbase?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

That and just the general braindead idiots.

People who just don't understand anything about the saga, such as the themes, characters, plot, designs, symbolisms, etc...

data_link: What I meant was that if you don't see me after the thread's getting a little heated, it's not because I'm cowardly ducking out, but because I don't want to end up exploding.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Speaking of ducking out, I've got a class to go to, and after that studying.

[Joe]

You have to understand just how many moronic Eva fans there are out there. Lots of stupid Shinji x Kaoru sites. Makes non-braindead fans angry.

Much like the massive and incredibly vocal Gundam Wing yaoi fanbase?

Oh no, not quite that bad.

[Larz]

Glory be! My original insight has return, I am the shepard of depravity... (refering to previous thread where I brought up Shinji's sexuality)... but huh tends to be the reaction most get the first time through...

[Pablo Sanchez]

Glory be! My original insight has return, I am the shepard of depravity... (refering to previous thread where I brought up Shinji's sexuality)... but huh tends to be the reaction most get the first time through...

I'm going to watch EoE until I understand it.

See you next year

[Joe]

As much as I loved EoE, I don't know how many viewings of it I could stomach.

[Pablo Sanchez]

As much as I loved EoE, I don't know how many viewings of it I could stomach.

Well, at least it wasn't as tedious as Episodes 25-26. Those bastards were so boring that I nearly called it quits at the very end.

[Joe]

I thought Episodes 25-26 were interesting philosophical ruminations that did a decent job of examining the characters, but they were ultimately an unfulfilling way to end the series. Gainax/Anno was right to make EoE.

[Yogi]

I am a bit puzzled by why people thought the movie ending was supposed to be the "good" ending (this assumes that it is diffrent from the TV ending, an opinion I share). The movie had nothing but negative, depressing, nhilistic imagry associated with it, while the TV series was brighter in tone. Shinji never changes his nhilistic opinion in the movie, while in the TV series he learns to at least accept himself.

I can understand people who think the movie is the "True" ending, but I really don't see how it can be the desirable ending.

[Joe]

I am a bit puzzled by why people thought the movie ending was supposed to be the "good" ending (this assumes that it is diffrent from the TV ending, an opinion I share). The movie had nothing but negative, depressing, nhilistic imagry associated with it, while the TV series was brighter in tone. Shinji never changes his nhilistic opinion in the movie, while in the TV series he learns to at least accept himself.

I can understand people who think the movie is the "True" ending, but I really don't see how it can be the desirable ending.

Because within the TV ending, Shinji is still within the Human Instrumentality - that is, the bullshit reality he rejected in the End of Evangelion. It's an empty reality, because it is humanity dehumanized - the desire to want to be our own individual selves, which often involves rejecting others, is what makes us human. There is no happiness in the movie ending because it's actually realistic, and it wants to drive home the message of the series - life sucks sometimes, people will reject you, but that's just an inevitable part of the human experience and it's up to you to overcome that and live with it. When contrasted with the surreal, virtually drug-induced happiness of the TV ending, it's clear that the movie ending is the proper one, and the most in sync with the series as a whole.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Okay, thanks to Bean's help, I've moved the flame thread to HoS, and this thread is returning to other Sci-Fi. If you want to continue flaming over this, look in the HoS.

[Ghost Rider]

Wasn't also the movie ending because of fans persay nagging the creator of the series?

Well either way...EoE was okay except the for some reason we have to watch a giant naked Rei and Shinji act yet even more wussified

Eh...all in all Shinji is the reason I never cared too much about NGE.

[data_link]

Wasn't also the movie ending because of fans persay nagging the creator of the series?

Well either way...EoE was okay except the for some reason we have to watch a giant naked Rei and Shinji act yet even more wussified

Eh...all in all Shinji is the reason I never cared too much about NGE.

Personally, I found the fact that Shinji is a wuss a refresinhg break from all the flasy hero-type guys. Although I do think that perhaps the "Giant naked Rei" is just a little over the top.

[Ghost Rider]

Refreshing in some ways...but other times agonizing.

I mean the times he whined and moaned...at times good, other times I was screaming shut up and stand up for yourself.

But eh...more has to do with me persay than the series.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Wasn't also the movie ending because of fans persay nagging the creator of the series?

No, that's yet another moment of fan idiocy.

Anno's original version for the last two episodes were rejected by the network, so Gainax had to rush an ending for the series. Anno had a personal interest in psychology, so he decided to make an introspective version of the ending, one where Instrumentality succeeds.

Later on, Anno was able to do the real ending of the series with EoE.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Eh...all in all Shinji is the reason I never cared too much about NGE.

Shinji was the reason I enjoyed NGE! He alternates between cowardice and bloodthirst, he's socially maladjusted, he's unable to relate to the opposite sex, and he's quite often incompetent.

In short, he's more human than any character I've seen in any other recent series. And all of the characters in Evangelion are like that! Its a smorgasbord of people who can't communicate effectively. Even all the minor characters have hang-ups! Makoto Hayugi quietly moons after Misato, Kenzuke Aida is a techno-masturbatory violence freak, and Fuyutsuki serves loyally under a person he pretty much hates (and who also married the woman he loved!).

It's just awesome...

[Ghost Rider]

Thanks Spanky for clearing that up.

As for me, I didn't like Shinji...so which is why I tend not to try to persay love NGE...but I will give it's merits as a series for being thought provoking.

[Shinova]

Eh...all in all Shinji is the reason I never cared too much about NGE.

Shinji was the reason I enjoyed NGE! He alternates between cowardice and bloodthirst, he's socially maladjusted, he's unable to relate to the opposite sex, and he's quite often incompetent.

In short, he's more human than any character I've seen in any other recent series. And all of the characters in Evangelion are like that! Its a smorgasbord of people who can't communicate effectively. Even all the minor characters have hang-ups! Makoto Hayugi quietly moons after Misato, Kenzuke Aida is a techno-masturbatory violence freak, and Fuyutsuki serves loyally under a person he pretty much hates (and who also married the woman he loved!).

It's just awesome...

All of which is the contents of Hideaki Anno's brain emptied into a movie

[Yogi]

Because within the TV ending, Shinji is still within the Human Instrumentality - that is, the bullshit reality he rejected in the End of Evangelion. It's an empty reality, because it is humanity dehumanized - the desire to want to be our own individual selves, which often involves rejecting others, is what makes us human. There is no happiness in the movie ending because it's actually realistic, and it wants to drive home the message of the series - life sucks sometimes, people will reject you, but that's just an inevitable part of the human experience and it's up to you to overcome that and live with it. When contrasted with the surreal, virtually drug-induced happiness of the TV ending, it's clear that the movie ending is the proper one, and the most in sync with the series as a whole.

Eh?
TV Ending: Shinji sees how everyone thinks of him. He is then shown three worlds, one in which he is completely alone but has ultimate control, a porld in which he has almost ultimate control but his father has decided which way was down, an a world much like his own in which is is with everyone else, but has comparatively little control over his life. He is then given a choice, reject instrumtality and be apart from everyone else, but omnipotent in his world, or accept it, accept the fact that you have to deal with others, but live with them anyway. In addition, in the TV ending, there was NO evidence that Shinji was deciding the fate of humankind, just his own fate.

Movie: Throughout the first half of the movie, Shinji is more deserving of a slap than at any other point in the series. Instead of Shinji the confused, lost, and hurt child, we have Shinji the doll, completely unwilling to interact with the world around him. During Instrumentality, Shinji is shown scenes from his past which shows how he is. Various forms of Misato, Rei, and Asuka try to communicate with him. His only reaction is to reject and/or strangle them. In the end, he decides that he would rather suffer with his AT field up than have to interact with the rest of humanity, so he destroys instrumentality good, and sends his mother to orbit Earth alone for the next how many millions of years. He then strangles Asuka, or rather, a cold lifeless copy of Asuka who ultimatly would be completely passive and won't hurt him like the real Asuka would.

So to summerise, the ending of the TV series had Shinji's friends congratulating him, while the ending of the Movie has him both "killing" Rei (the giant half-broken smiling face in the background) and Asuka (strangulation). This is why I think the Movie ending was just Anno turning the nhilism knob to "overdrive".

[Shinova]

Eh...all in all Shinji is the reason I never cared too much about NGE.

Shinji was the reason I enjoyed NGE! He alternates between cowardice and bloodthirst, he's socially maladjusted, he's unable to relate to the opposite sex, and he's quite often incompetent.

In short, he's more human than any character I've seen in any other recent series. And all of the characters in Evangelion are like that! Its a smorgasbord of people who can't communicate effectively. Even all the minor characters have hang-ups! Makoto Hayugi quietly moons after Misato, Kenzuke Aida is a techno-masturbatory violence freak, and Fuyutsuki serves loyally under a person he pretty much hates (and who also married the woman he loved!).

It's just awesome...

All of which is the contents of Hideaki Anno's brain emptied into a movie

Scratch movie and put series+movies.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yogi, you do realise that a lot of people in the final shot of eps 26 are dead at the time, right? And what about the weird setting?

In the TV ending, they tell him "Life sucks, so come here to be part of everyone." We are seeing Instrumentality from the inside, and it succeeds.

From Eva Otaku, one of the best Eva sites online containing correct information:

Q) Which is the true end to Evangelion? The TV episodes or the films?

A) The End of Evangelion is the official ending to the saga. In the RCB it is stated that EoE was created from the original scripts for eps 25 and then a new script written to continue from that episode, but because of production errors they could not be used. However, this does not mean the TV ending is false, it is simply an alternate conclusion.

Q) Are the TV ending and Film ending the same conclusion to the saga?

A) In my view - No.

In the TV ending Shinji chose to stay with Complementation - it isn't even clear that Shinji had a choice at all. He is treated as little more than an example of the process of Complementation - which consisted if breaking down Shinji's link to reality. In the end, Shinji looks at the world of Complementation and smiling happily says "I understand! I can exist here!" He is then congratulated for his decision, by friends living and dead (Kaji), a healthy Touji with his leg still on, and even PenPen. A surreal ending scene to say the least. This ending is similar in context and theme to the ending of George Orwell's book, 1984.

Conversely, the film ends in the opposite manner. Shinji does have a choice and in the last moments of the film utterly rejects Complementation precisely because it eliminates the link to reality, it establishes a false paradise. Complementation is basically a cop-out, and Shinji has matured enough to realize this. The tone at the end of the film isn't a surreal, almost drug-induced, joyful "Congratulations!" for Shinji, but the cold and harsh reality of life.

Further, the Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):
"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face).
A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."
(Translated by Bochan Bird)

Note, "the figure of the Complemented Shinji". Pretty cut and dry.

Q) Are there really different types of Third Impact? A Constructive and Destructive one?

A) Well.. yes and no. Both "types" of Third Impact result in the destruction of humanity. If an Angel came into contact with Adam (or Lilith) it would seem they would have been Complemented. Kaworu tells Shinji that only one form of life can escape annihilation and inherit the future - and that the Lilim are not the ones who should perish (he thus sacrificed his life to give humans a chance).
The entire Evangelion TV series is, then, a prelude to the real mission at hand - the Human Complement Project. A project to unite life through death, to return to the womb of Lilith and exist as a single perfect being

Q) Isn't the final scene Shinji's personal Heaven as a result of Human Complement Project?

A) No. Shinji was shown what Human Complement Project would be like if it was accomplished, and when he saw how fake the happiness really was he chose to stop it. He finds that Complementation is just another version of running away. He realized he would still be alone, because even he wouldn't be there.

Rei and Kaworu warn him that if he chooses to return to reality that AT Fields will once again hurt him and others again, "Fear of other people will once again return." But Shinji say to them "That's fine."

Further, this is confirmed in the Cardass Masters card game that states, "Shinji renounced the world where all hearts had melted into one and accepted each other unconditionally."

This is fact.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Additional:

Q) Is that final scene of Yours Sincerely, "I need you.", reality or part of Shinji's mind?

A) This scene is reality. In the preceding scenes we see Shinji float up from a red ocean to the surface where he sees the face of Lillith/Rei slowing splitting and sinking into the ocean. The very next scene is Shinji on the beach next to this red ocean, Lillith/Rei's head still next to him. Shinji clearly chose real pain over false pleasure. Further, Cardass Drama card D-88 states, "Shinji renounced the world where all hearts had melted into one and accepted each other unconditionally."

The scene is reality.

Q) What planet is Shinji on in "I need you."?

A) Shinji and Asuka are still on Earth. As Lillith de-composes her limbs begin to fall off and plummet down to the Earth's surface, when Shinji awakes he sees Lilith head in the distance, not to mention the dead Mass Production Evas that stand crucified in the red ocean. This proves, without the shadow of a doubt, that this is Earth.

Q) When Shinji strangles Asuka in The End of Evangelion: Sincerely Yours, is this a real memory or part of the Complementation project?

A) This is a part of the process of Complementation. There are several indications of this.

First of all, the scene itself is very surreal and does not feel right as a memory. It does not logically fit in the Evangelion timeline (it would probably have occurred somewhere between episodes 23 and 24). Shinji is not nearly desperate enough during this time to strangle Asuka, and I seriously doubt Asuka would stand there idely and she suffocated. Further, the cut of the spilled coffee pot is inserted into the Director's Cut of episode 24 (before the episode begins) but is used in a completely different context (Asuka's realization to Kaji is not coming back).

In the scene Asuka says, "You're afraid of Misato and the First... " which mirrors exactly what Shinji said in The End of Evangelion: Air, "I... I'm scared of both Misato and Ayanami..." before he masturbates to her comatose body. All signs point to this sequence being an expression of Shinji's frustration with Asuka, and also his feelings of guilt for what he did. Moments earlier Asuka's (or perhaps more specifically, the Asuka in Shinji's mind) confronts Shinji saying, "Idiot! I 'know' about your jerk-off fantasies of me. Do it again like usual... I'll even stand here and watch."

Q) Why does Shinji strangle Asuka in the final scene of The End of Evangelion, 'I need you.' ?

A) The sequance is one of the most hotly debated in Eva circles all over the world. Until now there was no definitive answer to the mystery. However, Bochan Bird has recently stumbled onto the absolute answer, held within the Eva Carddass Masters Trading Card Game.

Here is the original answer I wrote about a year ago for this FAQ:
'I need you.' affirms Shinji's choice to return to reality, and in doing so has separated himself from Asuka once more. His first impulse is to strangle her, to finish what he started during Complementation. But then he feels her caress (which is very similar to the one he received from his mother only moments before) and realizes what he's doing. He releases his grip and collapses as an emotionally broken little boy - which disgusts Asuka.

The following presents the definitive answer to this question, as translated by Bochan Bird -
Part II (movies) Drama card D-88
Title: "Kimochi warui"
Small print:
"Shinji renounced the world where all hearts had melted into one and accepted each other unconditionally. His desire... to live
with 'others' -- other hearts that would sometimes reject him, even deny him. That is why the first thing he did after coming to
his senses was to place his hands around Asuka's neck. To feel the existence of an 'other'. To confirm (make sure of) rejection
and denial."

---- So, I was half right. The scene is meant to be an affirmation of Shinji's decision to return to reality. As I wrote on the Evangelion ML, the scene is there to prove "pain once again exists". However, I didn't give Shinji enough credit for his intention when he strangled her. I thought it was a carry over from the previous strangulation scene, when it was actually meant as a test to see if he was indeed back in the real world.