Page 2 of 3

Posted: 2005-02-16 12:52pm
by Stormbringer
Stravo wrote:Frankly JMS seems to have fired his load with the first 4 seasons of B5 and his fans have been giving him a free pass ever since. "It's the suits man." "Its the schedule" "He didn't have enough time." "He didn't know it would be renewed." I'll keep an open mind on this guy but he's no "OMG bestest writer erver!!!111!!!" bullshit I hear way to often from Fivers.
Just because you don't like the movies or hate the fifth season doesn't mean everyone else does. A lot of the fans like the movies (with the exception of River of Souls but the less said there the better) and at least enjoyed the latter half of the Season 5. Certainly the ratings and fan opinion after that fact say that few share your opinions.

As for the writing quality, I love to see people treat TV writing like it's a book. It's not and the evironment is far more political and difficult. Stravo, I have to wonder what Starcrossed would be like if Mike only allowed you to post certain chapters, insisted on having new ones overnight, and had you randomly remove characters without notice. All the while demanding this and that, most of it dimeterically opposed to what Starcrossed is supposed to be. Such is TV, and worse.

I won't disagree that some projects have been failures or just duds. But to lay the blame of studio politics squarely on his shoulders is unfair. The fact that he consistently has produced great shows both before and after B-5 when he's given free enough reign should tell you he at least has some formidable talent. He's not perfect but it's unfair to accuse him of simply becoming a hack or has been.

Posted: 2005-02-16 01:05pm
by Stravo
Stormbringer wrote:
Stravo wrote:Frankly JMS seems to have fired his load with the first 4 seasons of B5 and his fans have been giving him a free pass ever since. "It's the suits man." "Its the schedule" "He didn't have enough time." "He didn't know it would be renewed." I'll keep an open mind on this guy but he's no "OMG bestest writer erver!!!111!!!" bullshit I hear way to often from Fivers.
Just because you don't like the movies or hate the fifth season doesn't mean everyone else does. A lot of the fans like the movies (with the exception of River of Souls but the less said there the better) and at least enjoyed the latter half of the Season 5. Certainly the ratings and fan opinion after that fact say that few share your opinions.

These are the same class of fans that are now trying to resurrect that steaming pile Enterprise. You will always have a fan base that will willingly take any shit you shovel at it as long as it has the brand name on it. And yes, I am most indeed entitled to my opinion.

It's a major disappointment that a man that can write some of the best sci fi I have ever seen can also put out some of the most vile shit since TNG Season 1.

If the majority of Fivers don't agree with me I can live with that. But don't fool yourself into thinking that any of those horrific movies is anywhere near the level of a Coming of Shadows, Zha'ha'dum, Into the Fire, Interludes and Examinations, Shadow Dancing, etc.
Stormbringer wrote:As for the writing quality, I love to see people treat TV writing like it's a book. It's not and the evironment is far more political and difficult. Stravo, I have to wonder what Starcrossed would be like if Mike only allowed you to post certain chapters, insisted on having new ones overnight, and had you randomly remove characters without notice. All the while demanding this and that, most of it dimeterically opposed to what Starcrossed is supposed to be. Such is TV, and worse.
So you're saying there was no such political games being played in Seasons 1-4 of B5? I find that extremely hard to believe, especially with a project that hasn't proven itself as B5 had not in those early seasons.

I will always accept that suits have a way of fucking with a product but I refuse to lay sole blame on them when the same political system that he chaffed under existed when he was writing stellar stuff as opposed to some of the shit that's gone out with the B5 label.

Stormbringer wrote:I won't disagree that some projects have been failures or just duds. But to lay the blame of studio politics squarely on his shoulders is unfair. The fact that he consistently has produced great shows both before and after B-5 when he's given free enough reign should tell you he at least has some formidable talent. He's not perfect but it's unfair to accuse him of simply becoming a hack or has been.
I have the weight of evidence on my side that his writing has taken a precipitous drop since B5. The movies and everything post B5 has never even come close to what we saw in seasons 1-4. Is it fair to hold him to that standard? Well, its the standard he himself set and I'm not even looking for as good, I'm just looking for good period and River of Souls and LOTR is not even playing in the same stadium as what he was able to produce beforehand.

Posted: 2005-02-16 02:46pm
by Stormbringer
These are the same class of fans that are now trying to resurrect that steaming pile Enterprise. You will always have a fan base that will willingly take any shit you shovel at it as long as it has the brand name on it. And yes, I am most indeed entitled to my opinion.
I disagree strongly. The fans are not a mere handful of insanely devoted fanboys but rather a broad fan base, most of them demonstrably more literate and intelligent than Ent's fanwhore, that disagree in part or all with your assesment. And there's the simple matter that B-5 had far more critical and commericial success, and even with the last season, is about the closest thing one can have to objective proof when disucssing subjective quality.

You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it by any means universal.
It's a major disappointment that a man that can write some of the best sci fi I have ever seen can also put out some of the most vile shit since TNG Season 1.
I would certainly disagree with that assesment but it's all a matter of arguing opinions. And that would be pointless.
If the majority of Fivers don't agree with me I can live with that. But don't fool yourself into thinking that any of those horrific movies is anywhere near the level of a Coming of Shadows, Zha'ha'dum, Into the Fire, Interludes and Examinations, Shadow Dancing, etc.
And don't fool yourself into thinking that every Fiver reviles them so badly as you do. To judge from the sales of both the movies and the initial movie offering there are a great many of them that did indeed enjoy the movies. They've done every bit as well as the series and have on re-runs, done fantastic numbers.
So you're saying there was no such political games being played in Seasons 1-4 of B5? I find that extremely hard to believe, especially with a project that hasn't proven itself as B5 had not in those early seasons.
Studio politics were there but we can objectively state that there were more effects immediately before and going into Season 5. P-ten the syndication consortium had generally just bought the show and not worried over much, the ratings were fantastic. And Warner Brothers was hands off.

As for Season 5, it was renewed well after the usual date. Which meant finishing Season 4 early. It also meant scrambling to find a new network, it also meant readapting the arc. Both processes which took up precious time from purely writing. A process further complicated by the loss of a major character for the next arc.

Could Season 5 have been better? Yes it could, I've said as much before and still do now. With the exception of the Centuari Arc I would say most is subpar and some episodes were barely watchable. But is that all JMS's fault? Not entirely. He's a writer and a good one but drop that much crap in some one's lap and you won't get gold.

And TNT, well the infamous memo and their moronic insistance on last minute changes did in Crusade pure and simple.

Sure some failures were his own fault. River of Souls was just bad and to his credit he's acknowledged it.

Legend of the Ranger did well and was pretty good. It suffered from the hand of Sci-fi and their rather schiophrenic approach to it. Worse could be said of BS:G, and has, but when given a better chance with a better Sci-fi management and it's done well. I actually don't find the Gun Pod sequence so bad, it shows the religious nuttery of a warrior-cult that hasn't fought a war in a millenia.

For the Shadow-Lite arguement, I've long ago come to the conclusion that its critics were both more right and more wrong than they realize. :evil:

If you want proof he's still got it, watch the first three seasons of Jeremiah.
I will always accept that suits have a way of fucking with a product but I refuse to lay sole blame on them when the same political system that he chaffed under existed when he was writing stellar stuff as opposed to some of the shit that's gone out with the B5 label.
Except we can point to major political difficulties which weren't there in those Seasons.
I have the weight of evidence on my side that his writing has taken a precipitous drop since B5. The movies and everything post B5 has never even come close to what we saw in seasons 1-4. Is it fair to hold him to that standard? Well, its the standard he himself set and I'm not even looking for as good, I'm just looking for good period and River of Souls and LOTR is not even playing in the same stadium as what he was able to produce beforehand.
I won't argue your subjective opinions. I'll only point out that there are serious reasons for the drop and that most fans disagree with you on the movies.

And if you want proof he can run a quality TV show, look at what he did when he got the reins again with Jeremiah.

Posted: 2005-02-16 06:55pm
by Skylon
On the season 5 note...I agree, the first chunk of the season is pretty bad (aside from some okay eps, "Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" is a good character piece). The telepath arc I pretty much hated because it dragged on, but I liked its resolution with "Phoenix Rising" (okay, mostly for Byron finally dying). The "Fall of Centauri Prime" arc however I felt was as good as anything from seasons 3 and 4.

Posted: 2005-02-16 07:54pm
by Bob the Gunslinger
I think JMS simply burned himself out for a while. He used up most of his good material on B5, but he has done some good work recently. Some of Jeremiah was well written and his comic books aren't too bad, so I am willing to see what he could do with Trek.

Granted his B5 movies were pretty crappy, at least Thirdspace and River of souls were--I still believe that Call to Arms would have been a much better movie with a better soundtrack and director--but his big arc was great and In the Beginning was great as a result of it. Thus, I believe that his arc-writing skills shaould be used to their full effect and they could pull off some great Trek.
Especially if they bring in David J. Schow for the dialogue. 8)

Posted: 2005-02-16 09:00pm
by Gil Hamilton
JMS has his problems. One that comes to mind is his penchant for Ambiguously Evil Super Bad Guys, each more ambiguously evil and super than the last.

First you've got the Shadows, who did mysterious and evil things. Why because they like Chaos and doing mysterious evil things. Then we've got the Drakh, who are like the Shadows without the explaination why exactly they were going around being mysterious and evil. Then you've got the Thirdspace Aliens, who are even more power and want to destroy everything. Why? Because they are evil. Then you've got the Hand, who are pretty much the Thirdspace Aliens except they work by proxy. That's boring and lazy writing.

Posted: 2005-02-16 10:12pm
by Skylon
Gil Hamilton wrote:JMS has his problems. One that comes to mind is his penchant for Ambiguously Evil Super Bad Guys, each more ambiguously evil and super than the last.

First you've got the Shadows, who did mysterious and evil things. Why because they like Chaos and doing mysterious evil things. Then we've got the Drakh, who are like the Shadows without the explaination why exactly they were going around being mysterious and evil.
Actually, the shadows were more akin to social darwinists run-amok. I don't see an issue with that. The Drakh tried to follow up their work...

Agreed on the Thirdspace aliens and the Hand though...part of why I wasn't crazy about either TV movie (well, LotR had a zillion problems).

Posted: 2005-02-16 10:50pm
by Lost Soal
If you want to decide whether JMS would be good for Trek you need to look at his overall level of writing and compare it to the overall level of writing in Trek. I've watched just about everything of both thats aired on UK terrestrial TV and don't see much to question the idea that JMS and Bryce would be the best thing thats happened to Trek in a long while.

Unfortunately the fact that Paramount rejected their pitch because of "political considerations" suggests they doen't care about good stories or they would be insisting on their own ideas resulting in another Crusade-like situation.

Posted: 2005-02-16 10:51pm
by Petrosjko
I'll agree with Bob on the burnout issue. After all, Straczynski set the record for most consecutive episodes written by one guy. At some point it's inevitable he's going to jump the shark a bit.

I don't know if I'd want to see him in charge of a Star Trek project, though. I don't want Trek in general to revolve around large, epic stories that he has a tendency to do. While I like arcs, I don't want armageddon arcs in Trek, and JMS seems to have a bit of a penchant for them.

Posted: 2005-02-17 12:31am
by RedImperator
Petrosjko wrote:I'll agree with Bob on the burnout issue. After all, Straczynski set the record for most consecutive episodes written by one guy. At some point it's inevitable he's going to jump the shark a bit.

I don't know if I'd want to see him in charge of a Star Trek project, though. I don't want Trek in general to revolve around large, epic stories that he has a tendency to do. While I like arcs, I don't want armageddon arcs in Trek, and JMS seems to have a bit of a penchant for them.
I'd like to see the next Trek work something like Firefly did, with micro-arcs feeding mini-arcs feeding a single main-arc that very subtlely advanced. We were lucky enough that he had enough time to complete the first mini-arc (River becoming accepted by the crew).

I don't really know if that's JMS's style, but I'd like to see that. Certainly you won't get it from the monkeys Paramount has chained to the typewriters today.

Posted: 2005-02-17 12:31am
by Joe
Hmm, could be cool. Just as long as he keeps writing Supreme Power.

On the other hand, if I were a serious Trek fan I'd be sort of fearful about handing Trek continuity over to JMS, given what he's done to Spider-Man.

Posted: 2005-02-17 01:25am
by Lost Soal
Joe wrote:Hmm, could be cool. Just as long as he keeps writing Supreme Power.

On the other hand, if I were a serious Trek fan I'd be sort of fearful about handing Trek continuity over to JMS, given what he's done to Spider-Man.
ENT had Romulans with fully developed cloaking devices a century before they were developing them in TOS, while VOY placed multiple Borg cubes and Romulans at Wolf 359. And your worried about JMS playing with continuity.

Posted: 2005-02-17 10:38am
by Gil Hamilton
Skylon wrote:Actually, the shadows were more akin to social darwinists run-amok. I don't see an issue with that. The Drakh tried to follow up their work...
I know what the Shadows and the Drakh were up to, but they were still Ambiguously Evil Super Bad Guys. There motivation always seemed so flimsy and tacked on. It's the same reason I always thought that Apocolypse was a goof ball in X-Men. All of them were so needlessly nefarious and all of them were the same.
Agreed on the Thirdspace aliens and the Hand though...part of why I wasn't crazy about either TV movie (well, LotR had a zillion problems).
The thing is that for all intensive purposes, they might as well have been the Shadows or the Drakh, just with their power kicked up a notch.

Posted: 2005-02-17 11:54am
by Drooling Iguana
So Tashar Yar had sex with that oilslick thing between episodes and was killed to cover it up?

Posted: 2005-02-17 12:25pm
by General Zod
Drooling Iguana wrote:So Tashar Yar had sex with that oilslick thing between episodes and was killed to cover it up?
the oilslick was obviously a tentacle monster in disguise.

Posted: 2005-02-17 02:03pm
by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba
Lost Soal wrote: *snipped unnecessary parts* VOY placed multiple Borg cubes and Romulans at Wolf 359.
WHAT? Where the fuck is that?!

Posted: 2005-02-17 03:15pm
by Oberleutnant
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
Lost Soal wrote: *snipped unnecessary parts* VOY placed multiple Borg cubes and Romulans at Wolf 359.
WHAT? Where the fuck is that?!
Nowhere.

Posted: 2005-02-17 03:22pm
by Skylon
Gil Hamilton wrote: The thing is that for all intensive purposes, they might as well have been the Shadows or the Drakh, just with their power kicked up a notch.
Well, what utterly killed the Hand and LotR (as if every minute of that TV movie wasn't enough) was the idea that "the Hand has been around longer than anything else!"

Um...Lorien? Shadows? Vorlons? Oh yeah...did we fucking forget all the first ones left?!

I think the fact that Legend of the Rangers wasn't included on the movie dvd set speaks volume, that JMS would prefer the damn thing is just forgotten. I personally would...

Posted: 2005-02-17 08:33pm
by Lost Soal
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
Lost Soal wrote: *snipped unnecessary parts* VOY placed multiple Borg cubes and Romulans at Wolf 359.
WHAT? Where the fuck is that?!
It happens in Unity. The stranded group who set up the Co-opretive, the woman said they were assimilated at Wolf 359. A romulan is also included. Since the cube in BOBW was destroyed that means their was more than 1.

Posted: 2005-02-17 08:44pm
by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba
Lost Soal wrote:
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
Lost Soal wrote: *snipped unnecessary parts* VOY placed multiple Borg cubes and Romulans at Wolf 359.
WHAT? Where the fuck is that?!
It happens in Unity. The stranded group who set up the Co-opretive, the woman said they were assimilated at Wolf 359. A romulan is also included. Since the cube in BOBW was destroyed that means their was more than 1.
:shock: :shock: :shock: Holy Jesus tentaclefuck Christ on a sodomising pogo stick Batman! :shock:

Posted: 2005-02-17 08:57pm
by Skylon
Lost Soal wrote:
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
Lost Soal wrote: *snipped unnecessary parts* VOY placed multiple Borg cubes and Romulans at Wolf 359.
WHAT? Where the fuck is that?!
It happens in Unity. The stranded group who set up the Co-opretive, the woman said they were assimilated at Wolf 359. A romulan is also included. Since the cube in BOBW was destroyed that means their was more than 1.
That's really just shitty work....they could have just said the Romulans were assimilated during the Borg attacks on Romulan outposts hinted at in "The Neutral Zone" back in season 1 of TNG....

Posted: 2005-02-17 09:32pm
by Lost Soal
Also according to that episode, the Klingons DID show up. There is a flashback of a BOP involved in the battle.

Posted: 2005-02-17 11:06pm
by fgalkin
The Great Maker Speaketh:
Actually...belay everything I just said.

In the 24 hours between the time I composed the prior note, and sent
it, and it made its way through the moderation software, two things
happened:

1) I heard from a trusted source that Paramount is giving the Trek TV
world a rest for maybe one to two years, depending on circumstances, no
matter who would come along to run it. So it's not right to have folks
putting in time doing something that ultimately would be pointless, I
don't think that's a proper use of anybody's time.

2) At the same time as the above, an offer came in to run a new TV
series for fall of '06, and since there's no way anything Trek can
happen in the interim, I've said yes (now we have to negotiate the
deal, but that should be fairly straightforward).

So on two counts, the whole thing is kind of moot.

We can reconvene a year or two down the road to see where this takes
us, but in the interim...my apologies for waking everybody up in the
middle of the night.

As you were.

Thanks and with great chagrinedness --

jms
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17287

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Posted: 2005-02-18 12:31am
by DarkSilver
that's good, I can deal with a year or two without new Trek, I spent the last 7 or so without it (since DS9 ended), except for the episodes being shown on SpikeTV and Sci-fi.


Not sure if JMS could do good or bad with the Trek-verse, I'll just wait and judge what comes about if he should start the new series off.

Posted: 2005-02-18 04:25am
by Oberleutnant
Lost Soal wrote:
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
Lost Soal wrote: *snipped unnecessary parts* VOY placed multiple Borg cubes and Romulans at Wolf 359.
WHAT? Where the fuck is that?!
"It happens in Unity. The stranded group who set up the Co-opretive, the woman said they were assimilated at Wolf 359. A romulan is also included. Since the cube in BOBW was destroyed that means their was more than 1.
The Borg had been attacking Romulan outposts for long time and having a Romulan drone doesn't automatically mean that Romulans participated the Battle of Wolf 359 as you originally said. ;)

Besides, in "Best of the Both Worlds II", Admiral Hansen said that Klingons were dispatching ships and that Federation was considering opening communications with the Romulans.