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Maybe he did it to show how precise he could be.

NecronLord wrote:Yeah. The thing is, if the Mandalores could afford to equip an entire army with Mandalorian Iron, why couldn't the empire?

Mandalorian Iron being more expensive than what Stormtrooper armor is made of coupled with the fact that during the time of the Empire there weren't very many Jedi. If I remember my KOTOR correctly the Mandalorians didn't have a massive military on the scale the Empire did.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Mandalorian Iron being more expensive than what Stormtrooper armor is made of coupled with the fact that during the time of the Empire there weren't very many Jedi. If I remember my KOTOR correctly the Mandalorians didn't have a massive military on the scale the Empire did.

Their military was big enough to challenge the Republic, and things were going rather well until the Jedi got involved (but I won't go into that). However, the scale of military might 4000+ years before ANH wasn't quite as large as the size of militaries during OT. The Mandalorians, at least in the KOTOR games, seem to have a little bit of a bushido mentality (honor and death in battle, honing the individual soldier into a fine edge, etc), so they wouldn't necessarily be as reliant on huge nationalistic armies (ala Napoleon or the United States). As for the Republic, if you've got a Shaolin-esque monastic order where all members possess natural superhuman abilities, you don't really need as big a military.

CivilWarMan wrote: Their military was big enough to challenge the Republic, and things were going rather well until the Jedi got involved (but I won't go into that). However, the scale of military might 4000+ years before ANH wasn't quite as large as the size of militaries during OT. The Mandalorians, at least in the KOTOR games, seem to have a little bit of a bushido mentality (honor and death in battle, honing the individual soldier into a fine edge, etc), so they wouldn't necessarily be as reliant on huge nationalistic armies (ala Napoleon or the United States). As for the Republic, if you've got a Shaolin-esque monastic order where all members possess natural superhuman abilities, you don't really need as big a military.

Hence why I said why I said.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Hence why I said why I said.

Exactly. Just backing you up by providing a reason why they wouldn't need a huge military.

Slartibartfast wrote:

Kurgan wrote:Unless you count Jango Fett (Mace's saber went through his neck effortlessly), nope, never.

Didn't even scorch the helmet or the armor, so the neck probably was of a softer material.

EDIT: That makes me think, why did Mace bother to slash exactly thru Jango's neck. Doesn't prove anything but seems to hint that he thought the armor would have offered some degree of protection. Too bad they didn't actually show it.

Doesn't prove anything necessarily. Notice how when Luke's hand was sliced off, the sleeve of his jacket was neatly sliced it wasn't burned off. The Wampa's fur wasn't torched when his own arm was sliced off either, nor were the delicate wires in Vader's robot arm melted by a saber slash from his son in ROTJ.

Not every saber cut has been shown to "scorch" things necessarily.

Sure, you could argue that the body glove of the suit is soft and weak I suppose. Why not line it with Cortosis like everything else that is lightsaber resistant? Since Jedi are so rare in the time of the Empire, perhaps Boba Fett's armor is also weaker, maybe? Unless it's just his father's armor repainted...

I've always had an idea that lightsabres are extremely efficient at cutting through molecular bonds in the materials that they go through.

To me, this would explain several aspects of the films:

• No significant heat given off by the actual blade
• Melting of very dense materials (lots of bonding energy heating up surrounding material)
• Deflecting off of extremely dense materials
• Microscopically thin cuts
• Scorching of material surrounding a cut

I'm sure there are problems with this theory, the most glaring one I know of is not having done calculations for energy released by severing bonds in known materials (eg. Luke's hand). But, so far, this is the only thing I can come up with to explain what I see in the films.

Kurgan wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

Kurgan wrote:Unless you count Jango Fett (Mace's saber went through his neck effortlessly), nope, never.

Didn't even scorch the helmet or the armor, so the neck probably was of a softer material.

EDIT: That makes me think, why did Mace bother to slash exactly thru Jango's neck. Doesn't prove anything but seems to hint that he thought the armor would have offered some degree of protection. Too bad they didn't actually show it.

Doesn't prove anything necessarily.

I wrote:Doesn't prove anything

There, I even highlighted it for you.

Notice how when Luke's hand was sliced off, the sleeve of his jacket was neatly sliced it wasn't burned off. The Wampa's fur wasn't torched when his own arm was sliced off either, nor were the delicate wires in Vader's robot arm melted by a saber slash from his son in ROTJ.

Not every saber cut has been shown to "scorch" things necessarily.

You're just nitpicking, I merely put "scorch" instead of "scratch", but the idea is the same: it wasn't damaged AT ALL. Either it resisted just fine, OR Mace's cut was very precise.

Neither Jango's helmet or breastplate were "sliced" anywhere. The helmet was completely untouched, it was whole, so either it was hit and not damaged, or it wasn't hit at all. You don't see a chunk missing in Jango's torso either.

Sure, you could argue that the body glove of the suit is soft and weak I suppose. Why not line it with Cortosis like everything else that is lightsaber resistant? Since Jedi are so rare in the time of the Empire, perhaps Boba Fett's armor is also weaker, maybe? Unless it's just his father's armor repainted...

Because it's the EU that's Cortosis-happy. Lucas has no intention of having cortosis-anything. And the whole cortosis is a brianbug of the "lightsaber cuts literally ANYTHING" side. Why do you need cortosis, if material strength DOES play a part in lightsaber resistance?

Also, what the fuck kind of armor would have a cortosis body glove? How do you know cortosis is not rigid, also why would anyone put a material in the UNPROTECTED part of their armor that's no good against anything EXCEPT lightsabers?

Slartibartfast wrote: You're just nitpicking, I merely put "scorch" instead of "scratch", but the idea is the same: it wasn't damaged AT ALL. Either it resisted just fine, OR Mace's cut was very precise.

I didn't mean to nitpick, I thought you were honestly saying it should have been scorched (ie: burned, or glowing, like with Anakin's arm or Obi-Wan's cuts in AOTC).

If it resisted, shouldn't there have been sparks or something? So like you say, either it completely missed the saber-proof armor, or it missed the non-saber proof armor. It was a precise hit. I agree with you there.

The weakness of my evidence is that it doesn't prove anything besides that Jango's "body glove" isn't saber resistant.

Because it's the EU that's Cortosis-happy. Lucas has no intention of having cortosis-anything. And the whole cortosis is a brianbug of the "lightsaber cuts literally ANYTHING" side. Why do you need cortosis, if material strength DOES play a part in lightsaber resistance?

Because Cortosis has a special property that either deactivates lightsabers (red cortosis?) or simple resists them (taking multiple or focused hits to weaken it with a lightsaber; blue cortosis). According to at least one source, Dooku's cape and clothing is blaster and lightsaber resistant. Cortosis? It looks like ordinary cloth to me.

I agree, that Lucas probably doesn't give crap, but blah blah blah C/G level canon, etc.

Also, what the fuck kind of armor would have a cortosis body glove? How do you know cortosis is not rigid, also why would anyone put a material in the UNPROTECTED part of their armor that's no good against anything EXCEPT lightsabers?

Who the hell knows. He's a bounty hunter who has money to burn on gadgets for himself. Maybe he can afford to throw in some extra protection in a galaxy where the law enforcement uses lightsabers? Think of a reason. If Dooku can have a saber resistant cape and clothes, Boba can have a saber resistant body glove, unless it's so expensive that even he can't afford it (but Dooku can).

As to the "unprotected" part, well, Dooku doesn't wear a helmet either. If he gets hit in the face, his "saber proof clothes" are going to do him no good whatsoever. But he apparently wears the stuff anyway.

Does Dooku wear Cortosis? I don't know. But whether or not he does, that goes to show that there are non-rigid materials with that property.


The thing we seem to be arguing is that Jango Fett probably had saber proof armor. But if he did, it did him no good because Mace Windu luckily (or tactically) cut him through his non-saber proof body glove.

Slartibartfast wrote:How do you know cortosis is not rigid, also why would anyone put a material in the UNPROTECTED part of their armor that's no good against anything EXCEPT lightsabers?

From what I've read, cortosis is described as a very brittle mineral. If you made a blade entirely out of cortosis, it might block a lightsaber, but it would shatter if you shot it (or if it was caught in a grenade's blast radius).

The reason KOTOR can get away with cortosis vibroblades is the way its described. Vibroblades in KOTOR are similar to Damascan blades (combining high-carbon and low-carbon steels to produce the necessary hardness and ability to maintain a sharp cutting edge). The cortosis is woven into the blade to give it resistance against lightsabers, while other materials (probably durasteel or something like that) keep it from being brittle against other weapons. (In reality, they probably just wanted to keep the lightsaber from being an end-all personal superweapon)

The lameness of the KOTOR weapons is just that the engine wouldn't work if normal weapons didn't block sabres. Traditional RPG engines don't like weapons that can't be blocked, and noone wants to see the same dodge ani a millions times, I guess.

Really, you'd think they'd just design 'safer' lightsabres for use by non-force sensitives. Or, as argued here, just use dense materials to swat sabres away. A staff made of VaderArmour(tm) couldn't hard parry, but it could deflect and void sabres, and that'd be enough for an agile opponent. Course, with the force, they'd lose anyway.

But hey, any RPG that intends to make combat with precognisant, telekinetic, lightsabre wielding warrior monks interesting has to make some quite lame cuts.

Chardok wrote:I'm not proposing anything. I only want to know why they are sticky or why they are not all slick and stuff.

why do real swords "stick" to each other, its pretty much the user using force to keep the blades against each other

CivilWarMan wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:How do you know cortosis is not rigid, also why would anyone put a material in the UNPROTECTED part of their armor that's no good against anything EXCEPT lightsabers?

From what I've read, cortosis is described as a very brittle mineral. If you made a blade entirely out of cortosis, it might block a lightsaber, but it would shatter if you shot it (or if it was caught in a grenade's blast radius).

The reason KOTOR can get away with cortosis vibroblades is the way its described. Vibroblades in KOTOR are similar to Damascan blades (combining high-carbon and low-carbon steels to produce the necessary hardness and ability to maintain a sharp cutting edge). The cortosis is woven into the blade to give it resistance against lightsabers, while other materials (probably durasteel or something like that) keep it from being brittle against other weapons. (In reality, they probably just wanted to keep the lightsaber from being an end-all personal superweapon)

Don't forget the heavy use of Cortosis in Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast. Remnant Admiral Galak Fyarr wears a suit of powered armor made of (or plated with) Cortosis. It's lightsaber resistant as well as hardened against explosives and things, takes quite a beating. Likewise the Shadowtrooper (lightsaber wiedling force adepts wearing a type of black Stormtrooper armor) were all equipped with Cortosis in their body armor, so they could survive a few hits from a saber blade. According to the developers of the game there are two types of Cortosis (green and blue). The kind they use resists lightsabers, it just doesn't short out or overload the beam when it touches like the traditional kind.

So you can whine about Cortosis's usage in KOTOR if you want to, but JK2 came out first.

Kurgan wrote:Don't forget the heavy use of Cortosis in Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast. Remnant Admiral Galak Fyarr wears a suit of powered armor made of (or plated with) Cortosis. It's lightsaber resistant as well as hardened against explosives and things, takes quite a beating. Likewise the Shadowtrooper (lightsaber wiedling force adepts wearing a type of black Stormtrooper armor) were all equipped with Cortosis in their body armor, so they could survive a few hits from a saber blade. According to the developers of the game there are two types of Cortosis (green and blue). The kind they use resists lightsabers, it just doesn't short out or overload the beam when it touches like the traditional kind.

So you can whine about Cortosis's usage in KOTOR if you want to, but JK2 came out first.

I'm aware of JK2 cortosis usage, I was just pointing out KOTOR cortosis usage due to KOTOR being more popular.

As for JK2 cortosis armor, it's use is probably similar to its use in KOTOR vibroblades, since as I mentioned before cortosis is described as being too brittle to be used pure. Wearing pure cortosis armor would probably be like wearing armor made of shale. It might protect against a certain type of attack, but if you hit it with others (i.e. shooting it), the armor would shatter.

[edit]Just for the record I personally don't have a problem with cortosis. Material resistance would be a better explanation, but the existance of cortosis keeps the "lightsabers can cut through anything" people at bay.[/edit]

NecronLord wrote:My problem with the blast door being purely done by the lightsabre is, what happens when someone walks up with a baster rifle using a lightsabre grade power cell?

Perhaps what ever makes Mandalorian armour lightsabre resistant carries with it some disadvantages, maybe it's heavy, maintnance intensive, not so hot against other weapons etc. Since OT era Stormtroopers don't really fight Jedi all that often, there wouldn't be much need for them to have such protection in the first place.

Back on topic, aren't there several instances of sabers 'sliding up and down one another in the OT- i.e, right before Luke gets the choppy on his arm?

Sephirius wrote:Back on topic, aren't there several instances of sabers 'sliding up and down one another in the OT- i.e, right before Luke gets the choppy on his arm?

For the most part, I think it is the exception rather than the rule, if memory serves.

Crown wrote:

Sephirius wrote:Back on topic, aren't there several instances of sabers 'sliding up and down one another in the OT- i.e, right before Luke gets the choppy on his arm?

For the most part, I think it is the exception rather than the rule, if memory serves.

I think the idea though is, like stated above, they behave much like actual swords, when they hit each other they react in a way that if you apply force on them whilst sabers are locked, they remain in that position, but you can slide them up and down if there is minimal pressure applied.

NecronLord wrote:The thing about the blast door incident, is that some or all of that might be through use of the force. Certainly Qui-gon's survival is. As for Mandalorian armour, I'm not so certain it's that great, otherwise why don't stormtroopers have that stuff?

He should have used the Force to push the button that opens the blast door. What a n00b.

Sephirius wrote:

Crown wrote:

Sephirius wrote:Back on topic, aren't there several instances of sabers 'sliding up and down one another in the OT- i.e, right before Luke gets the choppy on his arm?

For the most part, I think it is the exception rather than the rule, if memory serves.

I think the idea though is, like stated above, they behave much like actual swords, when they hit each other they react in a way that if you apply force on them whilst sabers are locked, they remain in that position, but you can slide them up and down if there is minimal pressure applied.

I just checked episode II, watch the duel with Obi-Wan vs. Dooku- they're engaged in a test of strength doing the pushing thing, then Dooku does an evil smile like 'hey, I forgot, I can just do *THIS*' and slides his blade down Obi-Wan's to break the lock and slice him twice.

NecronLord wrote: [*]The side of the reactor pit in episode one. Maul hits it repeatedly, and only raises sparks, not even making the edge glow.

You *do* realize lightsabers can vary their outputs, right? I imagine that using a lightsaber at maximum output can use up the power pretty quickly (minutes, I'd imagine.) Reducing the output level allows the weapon to be used for much longer before needing recharging.

[*]Dooku's ship's armoured hull deflects a blow from his lightsabre, leaving a small portion glowing.

Which is unreasonable against a starship sized target why? Considering that vehicle/fighter scale energy weapons tend towards the GJ/TJ range, this is not neccesarily suprising.

[*]Darth Vader's body armour is resistant to lightsabre blows. It deflects Luke's sabre in TESB.

Yes and he's also demonstrrated the ability to absorb and redirect blaster fire with the Force (an ability both canonically and officially demonstrated, I might add.)

I might also add what about when Vader's suit is destroyed in the funereal pyre Luke built for him at the end of ROTJ? If his body armor can resist lightsaber blows by itself, cremating him in the armor isn't going to do much good. That and slicing off Vader's hand.

[*]Not once, but twice, the sabres of Lord Vader and his son are blocked by the railings of the Emperor's throne room. Luke later slices through these same railings with a heavy overarm strike using both hands, indicating that the railings are only good against glancing blows.

Again, not knowing the output of the sabers (or the properties of the railings), this isn't really a useful comparison. Alternately it might be more a matter of force/momentum than pure energy (IIRC we don't see the edges of those railings turning molten.)


The "lightsabers cut through anything" mentality might be hyperbole, but your examples aren't exactly proof of that. A better example would be - would a lightsaber penetrate say.. capital ship grade armor? Cut a mountain in half? Slicec the death Star apart?

NecronLord wrote:My problem with the blast door being purely done by the lightsabre is, what happens when someone walks up with a baster rifle using a lightsabre grade power cell?

You presumably blow a door through it. Luke did it in the ANH ANH novelization with his stormtrooper rifle set to maximum (although this was a sustained effort and starrtted to overheat the gun.) Blasters are demonstrably well into the MJ range as well, to within an order of magnitude of lightsabers quite easily.

Star-Blighter wrote:That brings up a mindboggling question that I MUST ASK!

Have we actually SEEN a stormie cut down by a lightsaber in the movies?

No. In ANH the only times we see a lightsabre in combat were in the cantina and the Obi-Wan/Vader duel. In ESB they're only seen when Luke slices a hole in the bottom of an AT-AT, in the cave duel, and in the Besbin duel. RotJ has a bit more lightsabre action, as it's Luke's preferred weapon by that point, but it's still only used against Jabba's guards, the speeder-bikes (but not the scouts riding them) and Vader. In AotC, the Stormtroopers are on the same side as the Jedi, and none of the Sith fight them with lightsabres. We do get a good example of how a lightsabre fares against mandalorian armour, though, in the Jango/Windu "duel".

Drooling Iguana wrote:

Star-Blighter wrote:That brings up a mindboggling question that I MUST ASK!

Have we actually SEEN a stormie cut down by a lightsaber in the movies?

No. In ANH the only times we see a lightsabre in combat were in the cantina and the Obi-Wan/Vader duel. In ESB they're only seen when Luke slices a hole in the bottom of an AT-AT, in the cave duel, and in the Besbin duel. RotJ has a bit more lightsabre action, as it's Luke's preferred weapon by that point, but it's still only used against Jabba's guards, the speeder-bikes (but not the scouts riding them) and Vader. In AotC, the Stormtroopers are on the same side as the Jedi, and none of the Sith fight them with lightsabres. We do get a good example of how a lightsabre fares against mandalorian armour, though, in the Jango/Windu "duel".

Considering that in Return of the Jedi, the lightsaber is able to slash through the material the (presumably armored) speeder-bikes are made of with a reasonable amount of force, I'd say that stormtrooper armor probably isn't proof against it...

In the original trilogy, the 'saber is usually used to deflect blaster-bolts at enemies, rather than to attack directly, with the notable exception of the battle on Jabba's barge in RotJ - where close-combat conditions probably make direct cuts with the 'saber more of a feasible combat tactic.

Drooling Iguana wrote:We do get a good example of how a lightsabre fares against mandalorian armour, though, in the Jango/Windu "duel".

Unfortunately we only know how it fares against flexible part that covers the neck of said armor.