Force Sub Winter 1941, Russian Front Tanks vs Mechs

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 12:23pm

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:Well, the T-90s would be bogged down in the mud too. And Zakus have jump jets. And better LOS. And they use super hardened steel at the very least.

You fool....the Russians have lived with the Russian MUD for their
entire lives, and they have designed ALL of their tanks since the
T-34 for maximum mobility in the russian mud of the fall and
spring.

And you forget that LOS goes both ways, Those T-90s were designed
for combat on the STEPPES, where it is FLAT for miles and miles with
no trees to block LOS, while the Mecha were designed with no thought
towards reducing their silhoulette.

T-90s enage the Mecha at long range and kill them before the Mecha
can even spot the T-90s.

And even if the Zaku sank waist deep (mud must be at least 8m deep) it can still torso twist...

Irrevelant as if you have no mobility in modern war, you DIE. Go ask the
crews of KV-1s in 1941 when they got tracks knocked out by the Germans.

Although i concede that ten to one odds with aerial support would force a defeat of the Zakus, though I believe the Zakus would take their fair share down with them.

Actually, the Zakus would all be bogged down in the mud, their engines
blown to shit from the effort to try to lift a foot out of the tremendous
suction that mud causes.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 12:27pm

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote: And I agree that Zakus can't hover forever, but they can certainly hover long enough to get to solid ground. Shoot the ground, if it splashes, don't land there.

Problem: There is NO solid ground in the russian fall/spring, period.

It's all mud, mud as far as the eye can see...

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2002-11-22 12:44pm

If we make such comparison and changes in the historial equipment I suggest to add to the russian side mainly T-72s and just some T-90.

In the winter of 1941, the germans were still shocked of the presence of the T-34/76 but it wasn't built in mass numbers then.

Also it still didn't have the chance against a Tiger, just from the back.
That's why later they developed the T-34/85 which incorporated the successful 85mm AA gun's modified version.

Beside that, the Red Army was still low on supplies. Nearly one third of the army was still unarmed and most of them used WWI carabines, so I can't imagine such an ammo waiste you've described.

On the other hand I read a post about 65000 civil trooper against 25 T-90 with their traclk down...
The civils have no chance...he said

It depends mostly on the terrain. Here in Budapest, in 1956 dozens of tank pilots burned to death in their tanks. The trick was the Molotov cocktail.
Although modern tanks are harder to set to flames when the infantry gets in an "uncomfortable" distance most tank pilot want to leave the tank.
Without sufficient infantry support tanks are no match against enemy infantry.

Don't take it as flaming please!!!

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-22 12:45pm

landing after a jump the Zaku would sink about waste deep into the mire.

Thats roughly twenty feet deep mud... Wow its a fucking sea of mud wonder how the tanks will do?

Problem: There is NO solid ground in the russian fall/spring, period.

It's all mud, mud as far as the eye can see...

Realy Shep? Then what is going to happen to the Tanks in that Twenty Feet Deep Mud nessary to impeded the Mechs...?

Seriously fokes come on now, your talking about Twenty feet Deep Mud to slow down those Tanks, if the T-34s can slog through it, I think fifty foot tall Mechs could handle it(Remeber how fast they can move to begin with thats a INSANE amount of Power needed to just take one step in those suits)

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 12:55pm

Mr Bean wrote: Seriously fokes come on now, your talking about Twenty feet Deep Mud to slow down those Tanks, if the T-34s can slog through it, I think fifty foot tall Mechs could handle it(Remeber how fast they can move to begin with thats a INSANE amount of Power needed to just take one step in those suits)

Do some ground pressure calculations please and then come back
to me.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-22 12:59pm

Do some ground pressure calculations please and then come back
to me.

Burden of Proof Fallicy Shep, You make a claim(They sink down into the Mud) YOU must back it up not me, as you first made the claim and I'm calling on you to prove it

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-11-22 01:03pm

I never knew russia was a vast sea of mud 20ft deep.

I realise thier wieght distrubration is against the mech.... But I'm wondering how anything can go over 20ft deep lakes of mud without sinking.

Serisoly how deep is the mud, on average, over thier?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 01:24pm

German panzers stuck in Russian mud. Autumn 1941.

If a tracked vehicle can get stuck like this....what does that bode well
for the mecha?

The only thing that seemed to work in that muddy morass were
sleighs and of course the T-34.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 01:27pm

Mr Bean wrote: Burden of Proof Fallicy Shep, You make a claim(They sink down into the Mud) YOU must back it up not me, as you first made the claim and I'm calling on you to prove it

The average 100+ ton mecha has a ground pressure of 90+ PSI.

The average 70+ ton tank (M1A2) has a ground pressure of 15 PSI.

Do the math.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 01:29pm

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22Gr ... edu&rnum=3

Seriously, we once calculated how much force a typical anime mech puts
on the ground... if you want to avoid sinkage (i.e., ground pressure close
to a human's) you'd need feet (in some cases) about 1/3rd as long as the
mecha is tall! Mecha like the Dom would be the only ones left standing in
a muddy field!

Aren't we glad Gundams usually fight in space, or on hard colony walls
or concrete streets?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-11-22 01:31pm

Shep, mobile suits are over 18 meters tall and can make jet-assisted jumps, traveling dozens of meters at a time.

Does that mean anything?

Mobile suits were also designed to take out tanks, planes, and other vehicles.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2002-11-22 01:33pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:I never knew russia was a vast sea of mud 20ft deep.

I realise thier wieght distrubration is against the mech.... But I'm wondering how anything can go over 20ft deep lakes of mud without sinking.

Serisoly how deep is the mud, on average, over thier?

To tell you the truth -since we're talking about the winter of 1941- the mud depth on a warmer day in russia is around 3 cm!

Come on dudes, you all know that in the wintertime Russia is freezed up.
Add to the snow the weight of a heavy tank and now you've a pretty nice ice -rink!

Manouvering tanks with their big tracks push the snow so hard that it almost becomes ice...

That's all for the mud in the wintertime...

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 01:35pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote: Shep, mobile suits are over 18 meters tall and can make jet-assisted jumps, traveling dozens of meters at a time.

Mobile suits were also designed to take out tanks, planes, and other vehicles.

What happens when your jet assisted mecha slams down into the soft
russian mud? It won't be pretty.

An 18 metre tall target? Sheeit, the Russians will own them. The steppes
will be littered with the corpses of Mecha.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-11-22 01:37pm

They blast out of it with their jets.

And are you assuming that the MSs aren't firing while in the air? Because they can do that.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-22 01:38pm

Boba Fett wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:I never knew russia was a vast sea of mud 20ft deep.

I realise thier wieght distrubration is against the mech.... But I'm wondering how anything can go over 20ft deep lakes of mud without sinking.

Serisoly how deep is the mud, on average, over thier?
To tell you the truth -since we're talking about the winter of 1941- the mud depth on a warmer day in russia is around 3 cm!

Come on dudes, you all know that in the wintertime Russia is freezed up.
Add to the snow the weight of a heavy tank and now you've a pretty nice ice -rink!

Manouvering tanks with their big tracks push the snow so hard that it almost becomes ice...

That's all for the mud in the wintertime...

Russia is very well know for its sudden thaws in winter. Thats what really fucked the Germans over many times.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-11-22 01:42pm

Then what about the river bed in gundam os team? I belive that was particulaly muddy... I'll try to find that episode.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 01:44pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:They blast out of it with their jets.

And are you assuming that the MSs aren't firing while in the air? Because they can do that.

Oh please. "Blast out of it with their jets"

Dont fuck with me.

If a 7 ton vehicle gets stuck in the mud, it takes a 20 ton winch to
rip it out. Why do you think tank recovery vehicles weigh as much,
or more than the tanks they have to recover?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-11-22 01:49pm

Just some info for the Zaku II:

Dimensions: head height 17.5 meters
Weight: empty 58.1 metric tons; max gross 73.3 metric tons
Powerplant: Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 951 kW
Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 2 x 20500 kg, 2 x 1000 kg
Performance: maximum thruster acceleration 0.59 G; 180-degree turn time 1.7 seconds; maximum ground running speed 88 km/h
Equipment and design features: sensors, range 3200 meters

Optional fixed armaments: 2 x 3-tube missile pod, mounted on legs
Optional hand armaments: 120 mm machinegun, drum-fed, 100 rounds per drum, spare drums can be stored on waist armor racks; 280 mm Zaku bazooka, 4 round magazine, can be stored on rack on rear waist armor; heat hawk, battery powered, can be stored on waist armor racks; cracker grenade, can be stored on optional storage rack on waist armor racks

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 01:55pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote: Equipment and design features: sensors, range 3200 meters

Thank you.

There is a story about an 88 crew in the Caucauses up on top of a
mountain who spotted a T34 in the valley below nearly 7 Km away.
They took a shot............ a lark really..........which connected and
destroyed the tank.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2002-11-22 02:00pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Boba Fett wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:I never knew russia was a vast sea of mud 20ft deep.

I realise thier wieght distrubration is against the mech.... But I'm wondering how anything can go over 20ft deep lakes of mud without sinking.

Serisoly how deep is the mud, on average, over thier?
To tell you the truth -since we're talking about the winter of 1941- the mud depth on a warmer day in russia is around 3 cm!

Come on dudes, you all know that in the wintertime Russia is freezed up.
Add to the snow the weight of a heavy tank and now you've a pretty nice ice -rink!

Manouvering tanks with their big tracks push the snow so hard that it almost becomes ice...

That's all for the mud in the wintertime...
Russia is very well know for its sudden thaws in winter. Thats what really fucked the Germans over many times.

Thanks for the info!

Really no offence but I live in a border country with the ex-USSR and we never experienced sudden thawing in wintertime.
Spring is another case!

The worst enemy of the german tanks was the cold itself. The diesel engines freezed up, that's why it was a common sight when soldiers placed the campfire under the tank.
The russians designed their tanks for this temperature and the "T" and "KV" series both worked with benzin.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 02:02pm

Boba Fett wrote: The russians designed their tanks for this temperature and the "T" and "KV" series both worked with benzin.

Actually, they designed their tanks to be able to be started with compressed
air to turn the engines over. T-34 had this feature.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2002-11-22 02:04pm

@MKSheppard: Nice picture of the Bofors 88'! Where did you get it?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-22 02:05pm

There is a story about an 88 crew in the Caucauses up on top of a
mountain who spotted a T34 in the valley below nearly 7 Km away.
They took a shot............ a lark really..........which connected and
destroyed the tank.

So you base your "win" on a luck Shot? NTM the Stated Optiminium Engagement range for T-90s is a mear 800 Meters

Not every engagement will be 7km(7000 Meters) most fall under 2KM in range, Escpilly fast moving Tank Battles.....

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 02:09pm

Mr Bean wrote: So you base your "win" on a luck Shot? NTM the Stated Optiminium Engagement range for T-90s is a mear 800 Meters

Not every engagement will be 7km(7000 Meters) most fall under 2KM in range, Escpilly fast moving Tank Battles.....

Then what was that 5km kill in the Gulf War by a Challenger?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-22 02:11pm

According to Spanky, the Zeon II has sensors that reach only 3.2 km,
so how is it going to find that tiny T-90 5 km away, while the T-90
has a target the size of a fucking HOUSE to aim at?

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Force Sub Winter 1941, Russian Front Tanks vs Mechs

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