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$2 for the CD case(opposed to 25cents for a plastic sleeve)

First, have you been living under a rock? There have been plenty of games lately that skimp on such luxuries. Half Life 2 came with no printed manual and paper/plastic sleeves.

Second, plastic sleeves are the worst. They're hard as hell to store in any organized and easily-accessible fashion, and they're not nearly as easy to get the CD out of as a proper jewel case. Seriously, if they don't include the jewel case, I wind up getting one to put it in anyway, so I'd rather it come with the jewel case to begin with and have it come with pretty paper inserts.

Third, it sounds like you'd be much happier with online delivery of games, a la Steam. I personally like having an original CD (or, better yet, DVD... christ, I can't wait for those to start coming into more widespread use) so I don't mind a little extra cost.

As for the "games finishing party"... what, you'd rather all game companies operate like EA Games? I hear they treat their programmers "properly"...

Darth Yoshi wrote:I love reading manuals. For console games I never look at the controls, but a decent manual gives you tips and backstory that you'll rarely get elsewhere. For instance, who would have known that the Chozo created Metroids and that the word metroid was Chozo for "ultimate warrior" if it hadn't been for the Metroid Fusion manual?

As for expensive, I keep my cases to hold my games, and I'd rather shell out a few extra bucks for a game case if it'll keep my games in decent condition for a few extra years.

Praxis: wtf? $35? That seems expensive for a used game.

I know. The local GameStop's have sucky used prices. I do get a 10% discount on all used games though.

I was going to buy Burnout 3 as a present for my sister and her PS2. I go to the store. $40 for brand new Burnout 3. $35 gets a used Burnout 3, with a generic (pictureless) case and no manual.

I just bought it new- I mean come on, $5 difference?

They also had a $30 GBA game new, and the used one was $25 with no box, manual, etc- just the used cartridge.

Assassin X you complete arse!

MANUALS ARE AWESOME - I have a BIG fucking draw full of them, and regularly pull out and re-read my favourites.

I HATE getting shitty on disc pdf manuals that are justified by dickheads like you who fill the demographics with your blase "I just don't care attitude", its people like you who are the reason that LOMAC and CMAK and FS2002 came without ANY form of documentation! Other than of couse, a 250 page on disc manual that you can either print out (which I shouldn't fucking have to do, because I should get it in the first place) or QUIT out of the game to read, because alt-tab is just not COOL in this kind of situation, especially considering the memory hogs that some of these games are.

BRING BACK THE FALCON 4.0 MANUAL!

The recent trend to outright do away with Jewl Cases is seriously pissing me off.

There are some manuals which are kickass: I'm thinking of the Blizzard manuals, which give you good fluff material to read up on the game in question (WC, SC, D1 and D2, LoD) and those are the kinds of manuals I like.

Then there are the kinds of manuals that don't tell you how to play the game, don't give fluff material, and don't give any sort of information that is useful to you. KOTOR, I have my eyes on you...

Manuals used to be excellent. Stuff like Falcon 3.0 had excellent manuals containing essentially all the information needed. That was a long time ago.

Now we've got fucking ingame tutorials. I fucking HATE tutorials. I read the fucking manual: don't force me to 'right click to move here' or 'this is the equipment menu, blah blah blah'. Its morons like ASS-X that got us here - people so stupid they need the hint screens splashed up on console load-times. Games like MGS are made even more tedious then they would have been anyway, by forcing the dialogue and story to incorporate the fact that the player is a complete dumbass who needs to be told each function before it can work. Homeworld, ironically, is just as bad - the whole 'we'll gradually unlock functions as the game progresses' gayness.

The Small Manual issue is definately related to the Lowest Common Denominator issue in gaming. Developers just keep lowering that bar. Would it really be so hard to include a 'Not a Retard' option, to skip this rubbish? I mean that fucking R:TW 'prologue' was so stupid it hurt my eyes, and you have to edit the config to get past it! Who's great idea was THAT?

On the other hand, cd cases don't interest me. I don't even want a box: let me download the fucking game. There's no five-kilo manual, so whats the point in going to EB?

I bought Tribes 3 and it has a CD key on the fucking PAPER CD sleeve. How fucking stupid do you get? Those things get thrown out FREQUENTLY.

weemadando wrote:its people like you who are the reason that LOMAC and CMAK and FS2002 came without ANY form of documentation!

CMAK came with documentation, a quick game guide; because Battlefront
figured that most people who owned CMBB would be buying CMAK and
they didn't need to spend money on the manual, since it would only
repeat what was already in the nice THICK CMBB manual..

This allowed CMAK to retail for only $35 plus shipping, while CMBB when it
originally came out was like $45 or so...

This is completely ridiculous and I constantly go over this very topic with everyone. Games are not expensive, console wise. PC wise I have no clue. In the early '90s NES games retailed for $50. The NES itself was $200, with two controllers, a double game and a light gun. Now as for the console itself I think it's fluctuated, however stablized. Since your getting multiple abillities even though you lose the controller, a game (which seem to be added towards the end of its life) and a light gun (which no one but me uses anyways). The games themselves still retail for $50. Roughly, sometimes cheaper. A special edition will be a little higher. The N64 games were higher because of the cost of the cartridge they used. Other then that, they're still the same. They come with nice full colored manuals, plenty of special offers, and the packaging itself is a case, were the NES games the box would just be destroyed after a few years. Video game titles themselves have not suffered from any form of inflation. The next gen games are rumored to be higher, but that's because plans are to have more production value in the first place.

MKSheppard wrote:ASSHOLE.

It's because of idiots like you that we don't have nice bound manuals
like ACES OF THE PACIFIC's anymore that actually teach you how to
do stuff, or the supplements which came with XCOM TERROR FROM
THE DEEP or XCOM APOCALYPSE....

Share the same sentiments, Shep. Same old geezer here.

Will come again with more relevant comments 2morrow but I's already 2AM tonight. So.....

Cal Wright wrote:This is completely ridiculous and I constantly go over this very topic with everyone. Games are not expensive, console wise. PC wise I have no clue.

Wing Commander originally had an MSRP north of $60.

Uraniun235 wrote:There have been plenty of games lately that skimp on such luxuries. Half Life 2 came with no printed manual and paper/plastic sleeves.

Not the DVD edition.

Hey now dont rip off my head. PC Gamer made the article about how much a game costs with all those $1 figures not me. I just posted some of the info.

IM just pointing out that if they are right then i could go without a box and cd case and some of the useless stuff.

As for the manual there are usefull ones but most are useless(for me at least). I get all the information i need on game. Anyways what information do you need?

Keys? Listed in game.
Story? PLay the game for story.

Maybe because im a HANDS ON person i find manuals useless. Once i actually play a game then i learn everything i need to know. Usually i read a manual if i got nothing else to do or if im stuck and there something im maybe missing.

I just though of something about the price of games. AT Electonics Boutique the had a game(cant remember which one) for pc for $45 in its small box(games come in small boxes now) so i looked for a used version (didnt buy it though) and they had the same game just in a plastic sleeve for $10. See game are way cheaper without all the other stuff.

There are some games that more or less use the entire keyboard and having a manual show them is useful. In addition I like to have backstory that might not be integrated into the game, general strategy & tactics and whatnot.

Assassin X wrote:Hey now dont rip off my head. PC Gamer made the article about how much a game costs with all those $1 figures not me. I just posted some of the info.

You do realize most PCG articles on that subject are humour..right? IIRC I've got that issue hanging around somewhere, 2K3 if i'm not mistaken, totally humour.

Belive me, the PCG staff knows it takes millions to produce games, and they know most of the costs are for covering that.

Assassin X wrote:Story? PLay the game for story.

Huh? What games have you been playing? The story in the manual is the backstory. It helps you understand the story more.

The burning of Kharak in Homeworld would never have had the emotional impact it had on me if there wasn't 30 some pages in the manual detailing the history of that planet.

It even went further than that. It talked about their social history as well. It had nothing to do with the game what so ever, but it was still a good read.

A good backstory is priceless, and can help improve any in-game story.

Temjin wrote:

Assassin X wrote:Story? PLay the game for story.

Huh? What games have you been playing? The story in the manual is the backstory. It helps you understand the story more.

The burning of Kharak in Homeworld would never have had the emotional impact it had on me if there wasn't 30 some pages in the manual detailing the history of that planet.

It even went further than that. It talked about their social history as well. It had nothing to do with the game what so ever, but it was still a good read.

A good backstory is priceless, and can help improve any in-game story.

Not to mention technobabble, the Moo2 manual was FULL of that stuff, I still have around 5 manuals of HW, Moo2 and SWAT 3 and Lords of Magic SE hanging around, their all gold, because of backstory and techno\magic\babble.

I've jsut been talking on ICQ to Alyeska, and the idea that you get crappy paper sleeves and no manual is ridiculous. Even the £4.99 budget range games here come in a DVD case, those have on disc manuals, but the vast majority of games have DVD cases. Some have an enlarge holder for multiple CD's, or an extra turning section like you get in 2 disc editions of DVD movies. Paper manuals are still alive here, but unfortanately they're getting thinner and thinner.

After surveying this thread I am really feeling almost stupid about buying Geneforge. Just a thin plastic case in a paper sleeve, no hardcopy manual, hintbook would have cost extra so skipped, simple graphics, simple game... Probably could have saved a bit by straight download I suppose.

But it was enjoyable. Its not like they have the resources of EA or anything. Maybe.

Let the buyer be aware, I guess.

General Brock wrote:After surveying this thread I am really feeling almost stupid about buying Geneforge. Just a thin plastic case in a paper sleeve, no hardcopy manual, hintbook would have cost extra so skipped, simple graphics, simple game... Probably could have saved a bit by straight download I suppose.
But it was enjoyable. Its not like they have the resources of EA or anything. Maybe.
Let the buyer be aware, I guess.

Are we talking Spiderweb Software's Geneforge here? Because the only reason they provide CDs in the first place ist customer convenience, their primary mode of distribution is downloads. And I'll take content over graphics every day.
Avernum 3 may quite possibly be the most extensive RPG I ever played.
Since Spiderweb is a small company that primarily distributes via downloads I'll happily forgive them.

Well, like i said some manuals are usefull but most arent. I guess it depends on the game.

Like MMO's for instance obviously youll need the manuals.

FARCRY for instance. I never read the manual so i dont know if there was a story in it. But i played the game and i loved it and its story. If i read the story(assuming there was one) in the manual would it have changed anything? No. Some people like to read it to make them feel more "in the game". I do try to read a story in the manual but thats usually all ill do.

OK, so i guess i do read the story in the manual. SO maybe all games really need are PLastic sleeve and a story paper thing. Im all set! I mean
theres nothing else you need because after all thats what the net is for.

Anyways you cant argue that $50 is somehow better then $10 for a game!

Although this would never happen and well always be paying $50 for a game.

*sigh*

You DON'T need manuals for MMORPGS. The few I've seen use essentially the same control system, and don't require much thought to work out. Those manuals are 60% 'Blizzard fluff', by which I mean the lamest fluff ever.

However, it appears you've simply never played a complex game that either a) doesn't have a tutorial or b) be entirely self explanatory off the bat. Far Cry? Are you on crack? It's an FPS! With NO UNIQUE FEATURES! At least you use the age-old strategy of working the buttons out on the control config screen

As soon as the whole 'buy games at a store' thing is gone, then we can buy games PROPERLY. They better send me a manual, though.

PS. Damn those HW and MoO manuals were full of shit. Anyone read the TA manual? Seriously, some of this fluff is so lame you wonder if the marketing guy wrote it.

Assassin X wrote:FARCRY for instance. I never read the manual so i dont know if there was a story in it. But i played the game and i loved it and its story. If i read the story(assuming there was one) in the manual would it have changed anything? No.

Not entirely true - the manual may have gien you interesting information about the game's background story, things that might have been covered only briefly in the game and was never touched upon in the same degree as the manual did. Fo example, had I never read the translation for the Shin Megami Tensei II manul, I would never have learned of what happened between the two games: the establishment of the social community, he rise of th Messian Church into a theocracy, the outlawing of all other religious and the persecution/slaying of their worshoppers, and other fascinating tidbits It might not give you information that equates to a button combination or a secret cache, but it's still well-worth the time reading it, and for all the information gained, the cst is negligable.

OK, so i guess i do read the story in the manual. SO maybe all games really need are PLastic sleeve and a story paper thing. Im all set! I mean theres nothing else you need because after all thats what the net is for.

The 'net isn't going to keep your CD from cracking in the event you hit a nasty speed bump while heading home, causing something to fall onto the sleeve and scratch/crack the disc.

Anyways you cant argue that $50 is somehow better then $10 for a game!

Yes, you can: a fifty-dollar game that comes with a nifty jewel case and nice, informative and interesting manuel, is easier to store and is more pleasing to the eye when stored in a good fashion, and is likely to have a far longer operating life due to the case protecting it from scratches is better than a ten-dollar game that comesin a shitty paper sleeve, has no instructive dcumentation that proves to be helpful (as well as enlightening on certain subjcts) is a pain in the ass to store and is an eyesore when looked at, and has a higher probability of being scratched or damaged due to the flimsiness of the container.

You know what's better than a fully-decked fifty-dollar game? One that's thirty or forty dollars (and in the case of a purchase made last night, less than seven dollars). Shop around; do research; get information; find the best ratio between cost and content. That's what E-Bay, Amazon, and other sites are for. Right now, I'm looking at a like-new copy of KoToR II, which is set for less tha thirty dollars, yet is selling at Media Play for 49.99 (Ooh! Mega Man Anniversery Collection for X-Box!)

And if you're still not satisfied with the prices as they are, you can always wait. As time passes, demand will start to curb, and prices will naturally fall. Sure, you might be "out of the loop" for the time you're waiting - but if cost is that important to you, then that's the price you pay in lieu of fiat - and in the case of classic games like CounterStrike, you'll nver really be out of it.

Stark wrote:PS. Damn those HW and MoO manuals were full of shit. Anyone read the TA manual? Seriously, some of this fluff is so lame you wonder if the marketing guy wrote it.

Huh? aside from the Technobabble, whats wrong with them?

Batman wrote [snip]

Yes, it was Spiderweb's Geneforge, and I know downloads are their MO. I was giving it as a gift, and the official disk seemed more sincere. As was making sure the CD worked and the game was as good as the demo.

Avernum. Reminds me, got to check that out too... content does indeed make up for graphics.