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Illuminatus Primus wrote:Poe has covered this. I believe the bolt is absorbed and then reemitted. It is definitely the Force, especially since the EU retroactively made this a Force power.

Well your latter example wouldn't necessarily be true. If the G-level novel said something and was contradicted by some C-level source, we'd go with the G-level one. We'd have to establish that his interpretation of the film was different from (and thus superscedes) the novelisation. There's a number of ways you could try to prove that, which I assume he did.

Kurgan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Poe has covered this. I believe the bolt is absorbed and then reemitted. It is definitely the Force, especially since the EU retroactively made this a Force power.

Well your latter example wouldn't necessarily be true. If the G-level novel said something and was contradicted by some C-level source, we'd go with the G-level one. We'd have to establish that his interpretation of the film was different from (and thus superscedes) the novelisation. There's a number of ways you could try to prove that, which I assume he did.

Watching TESB frame by frame makes it apparent the bolt wasn't simply reflected by the glove. The bolt disappears for a distinctly noticable period of time before reappearing onscreen and angling off into a different direction. Its rather unlikely the gauntlet deflected the bolt.

Did Wayne do a webpage or something similar about it?

Vympel wrote:Did Wayne do a webpage or something similar about it?

I believe so. I dont remember if its up or not tho.

Imperial Overlord wrote:Relevant passage:

But the man who may have been the fastest draw in the galaxy wan not fast enough to suprise Vader. Before those bolts zipped halfway across the table, the Dark Lord had lifted a gauntlet-protected hand and effortlessly deflected them so they exploded against the wall in a harmless spray of flying white shards.

So Vader raises his hand and deflects the bolts

Cal said:

So as we can see here in this passage, Vader used his gloved hand to deflect the shots.

Actually, we don't. We see Vader raise his hand and then deflect the blaster bolts. It does not directly state whether or not he does it with the force or with his hand. Now, we see the Jedi make all sorts of motions and gestures when using the force, so Vader raising his hand doesn't necessarily have any more signifigance than Qui-Gon gesturing at the dice or Obi-Wan gesturing as he uses the force to strike down battle droids. Or Vader gesturing as he uses his force choke.

Passage says 'raised gloved hand' and then 'deflected bolts' nothing about the Force.

Novel Canon
You Not
Debate Over

Cal Wright wrote:

Imperial Overlord wrote:Relevant passage:

But the man who may have been the fastest draw in the galaxy wan not fast enough to suprise Vader. Before those bolts zipped halfway across the table, the Dark Lord had lifted a gauntlet-protected hand and effortlessly deflected them so they exploded against the wall in a harmless spray of flying white shards.

So Vader raises his hand and deflects the bolts

Cal said:

So as we can see here in this passage, Vader used his gloved hand to deflect the shots.

Actually, we don't. We see Vader raise his hand and then deflect the blaster bolts. It does not directly state whether or not he does it with the force or with his hand. Now, we see the Jedi make all sorts of motions and gestures when using the force, so Vader raising his hand doesn't necessarily have any more signifigance than Qui-Gon gesturing at the dice or Obi-Wan gesturing as he uses the force to strike down battle droids. Or Vader gesturing as he uses his force choke.

Passage says 'raised gloved hand' and then 'deflected bolts' nothing about the Force.

Novel Canon
You Not
Debate Over

Oh bullshit. The fact that it says vader raised a "gauntlet-protected hand" ... that means he MUST have used the gauntlet itself? I'm sorry, did he have some OTHER kind of hand to use to deflect it? Maybe one growing out of his nutsack or something?

Cal Wright wrote:Passage says 'raised gloved hand' and then 'deflected bolts' nothing about the Force.

Novel Canon
You Not
Debate Over

Faulty causality. By that same logic, if the novelization said, "While Johnny was playing video games, his dog was run over by a car," one could infer that, in Star Wars, playing video games kills puppies.

It's important to note the novel quote is gauntlet-protected hand. If it was just "gloved hand" then I wouldn't be fool enough to argue that it was the glove that did it, but the novelization seems to be attributing it to his gauntlet.

However, the strongest evidence for it being the Force is the bolt being absorbed and released, rather than being outright deflected. I'm at work now so I can't exactly watch it ...

I always thought Vader absorbed the shots with the Force (in the movie), but this is the first I remember hearing that he sucked up the bolts and then spit them back out with the Force. The again I never did a painstaking frame by frame of the scene either...

I guess comparable to the Dooku scene again.

It's also been a long time since I read the novel. But I seem to remember it was like the shots just bounced off his glove in that version. In the movie version it was more like the shots just got close to his hand and disappeared with some sparks and smoke.

No, they definitely came back out and were deflected- you can see the scars on the walls.

His definately deflects the second one, the others are hard to tell if they were shot out in another direction.

Wow, so theoretically you could recreate the scene in AOTC of Yoda and Dooku, only with one guy firing a bunch of bolts and having them just throw the shots back at him? Certainly makes the "Saber vs. Blaster" Jedi thread a bit more interesting!

Jedi ping-pong.

Droid fires bolt at one Jedi, and they bounce it back and forth using the Force.

His glove is smoking in that animation. Interesting.

Not to mention that the next paragraph describes Vader using the Force to draw Solo's gun out of his hand and into his. Strange it doesn't describe Vader using the Force to deflect bolts, yet mentions gauntlet-protected hand. Also, as we all know, later on during his duel with Luke, his armor protects him from a glancing blow of a lightsabre.

if you watch closely, as I said above, the blaster goes THROUGH his gauntlet. therefore, it cannot be the gauntlet doing this.

I'd like to see a high quality screenshot showing where the blaster has gone through the gauntlet, if that's the case.

Cal Wright wrote:Not to mention that the next paragraph describes Vader using the Force to draw Solo's gun out of his hand and into his. Strange it doesn't describe Vader using the Force to deflect bolts, yet mentions gauntlet-protected hand.

...

So Han Solo's blaster, which can rip concrete chunks off of a Tattooine spaceport, can be stopped by Darth Vader's armour?

Also, as we all know, later on during his duel with Luke, his armor protects him from a glancing blow of a lightsabre.

Yes, shoulder guards that ARE armoured. Tell me how you can armour the inside of your palm. Particularly guaranteeing flexibility in order to move the fingers/manipulators enough to actually wield objects and maintain some dexterity.

I don't even see how this is a goddamn issue; AOTC shows Yoda absorbing and then dissipating energy, same as Dooku. Oh no, neither one had gauntlets on... I believe the CW cartoons showed Obi-wan do the same. Again, un-gauntleted.

It's a bloody force power. It has precedent in the EU, and is represented canonically in the films.

Stofsk wrote:

Cal Wright wrote:Not to mention that the next paragraph describes Vader using the Force to draw Solo's gun out of his hand and into his. Strange it doesn't describe Vader using the Force to deflect bolts, yet mentions gauntlet-protected hand.

...

So Han Solo's blaster, which can rip concrete chunks off of a Tattooine spaceport, can be stopped by Darth Vader's armour?

Apparently so. In black and white GAUNTLET-PROTECTED means his hand was protected by a gauntlet. See how that works?

Also, as we all know, later on during his duel with Luke, his armor protects him from a glancing blow of a lightsabre.

Yes, shoulder guards that ARE armoured. Tell me how you can armour the inside of your palm. Particularly guaranteeing flexibility in order to move the fingers/manipulators enough to actually wield objects and maintain some dexterity.

The palms of motorcycle gloves are as durable as the armor found on pieces such as the jackets and pants, yet are still flexible enough to use with quite a high bit dexterity. Definitely enough to weild a weapon since your working precise controls.

I don't even see how this is a goddamn issue; AOTC shows Yoda absorbing and then dissipating energy, same as Dooku. Oh no, neither one had gauntlets on... I believe the CW cartoons showed Obi-wan do the same. Again, un-gauntleted.

It's a god damn issue cuz your a fucking idiot. The 'energy' Yoda was 'asorbing' and 'dissipating' was a force power. Meaning he was using the force against the force. Luke tries the same trick in RotJ.

It's a bloody force power. It has precedent in the EU, and is represented canonically in the films.

No, it's a misconception. The EU also says the Executor is 8km and the DS II is 160km in diameter. Unfortunately for your paper bag debate it's NOT represented canonincally on films. However, it does show in my favor the gauntlet protected hand deflecting the bolts, and the novel states such as well.

Cal Wright wrote:Apparently so. In black and white GAUNTLET-PROTECTED means his hand was protected by a gauntlet. See how that works?

Except, y'know, that is not a "gauntlet-protected hand." As you'll recall from AotC, he no longer has a right hand. It was cut off. The phrase "gauntlet-protected hand" really makes no sense in light of just what we know that hand is from AotC and RotJ.

As Imperial Overlord mentioned, if this was written from the perspective of one of the Rebels. They didn't know that it was a robotic hand, and they didn't know he could use the Force to absorb blaster bolts.

They did, however, know that he was a Force user and that most Force users can move objects around.

The novel does not explicitly state whether he deflects the blaster bolts with his gauntlet or the force. It states he raises his armoured glove and the bolt is deflected. So we are left with:

1) Solo's blaster which drops armoured Stormtroopers and blows chunks out of walls is stopped by the armour on Vader's palm

or

2) Vader raises his hand and uses the force to deflect the blaster bolts.


I find number two more likely.

Cal Wright wrote:The palms of motorcycle gloves are as durable as the armor found on pieces such as the jackets and pants, yet are still flexible enough to use with quite a high bit dexterity. Definitely enough to weild a weapon since your working precise controls.

Gloves and a jacket can not be corresponded to gloves and ARMOUR, Cal. Vader's shoulder pieces are thick plates of armour. His gloves are not.

It's a god damn issue cuz your a fucking idiot. The 'energy' Yoda was 'asorbing' and 'dissipating' was a force power. Meaning he was using the force against the force. Luke tries the same trick in RotJ.

Absorb/Dissipate Energy even works against God damn sunburns, you moron. It most certainly doesn't have to be just against Force energies to work.

No, it's a misconception. The EU also says the Executor is 8km and the DS II is 160km in diameter. Unfortunately for your paper bag debate it's NOT represented canonincally on films. However, it does show in my favor the gauntlet protected hand deflecting the bolts, and the novel states such as well.

"Since the EU's wrong on some stuff, they might as well be wrong on everything, too. Especially this." That's what your argument basically boils down to at that point, Cal. That's considered despiration and grasping at straws.

Mad wrote:Except, y'know, that is not a "gauntlet-protected hand." As you'll recall from AotC, he no longer has a right hand. It was cut off. The phrase "gauntlet-protected hand" really makes no sense in light of just what we know that hand is from AotC and RotJ.

As Imperial Overlord mentioned, if this was written from the perspective of one of the Rebels. They didn't know that it was a robotic hand, and they didn't know he could use the Force to absorb blaster bolts.

They did, however, know that he was a Force user and that most Force users can move objects around.

The video cap further up in this thread shows he uses both hands. I have no idea what you were trying to do here. The only thing I can think of, is try and discredit my posts somehow. Luckily I use canon facts, and you tried using some off comment EU write in.

Imperial Overlord wrote:The novel does not explicitly state whether he deflects the blaster bolts with his gauntlet or the force. It states he raises his armoured glove and the bolt is deflected. So we are left with:

1) Solo's blaster which drops armoured Stormtroopers and blows chunks out of walls is stopped by the armour on Vader's palm

or

2) Vader raises his hand and uses the force to deflect the blaster bolts.


I find number two more likely.

Leap in logic in the face of evidence. Nice. Novel states he raised a gauntlet protected hand and deflected the bolts. In the next paragraph it describes him using the Force to yank the pistol out of Han's grip.

Spankmiser wrote:Gloves and a jacket can not be corresponded to gloves and ARMOUR, Cal. Vader's shoulder pieces are thick plates of armour. His gloves are not.

Do his gloves have to be thick plates of armor to protect him? No. That was my point, in correspondence to someone else trying the same thing.

Again, the Spankmiser wrote:Absorb/Dissipate Energy even works against God damn sunburns, you moron. It most certainly doesn't have to be just against Force energies to work.

Thanks for missing the point Spanky. The reference was made by another denizen in light of trying to prove that you can use the Force to deflect energy bolts fired from a blaster. I'm not debating whether you can or cannot. I'm debating that Vader used a 'gauntlet-protected' hand to deflect the laser bolts. Not to mention my retort was the fact that it was Force conjured lightning that was absord and redirected. Since eveyrone likes falling to the EU for evidence against canon, let's use this tidbit. In the NJO Jacen uses Force lighting during a rage against the Yuzhan Vong. This to no effect as it couldn't affect the Vong since they were devoid of the Force. Therefore, Force conjured lightning according to the EU/NJO acts entirely differently than blaster bolts.

The Spankmiser, ladies and gentlemen wrote:"Since the EU's wrong on some stuff, they might as well be wrong on everything, too. Especially this." That's what your argument basically boils down to at that point, Cal. That's considered despiration and grasping at straws.

I don't get it man. You huff and you puff, but your not blowing anything but hot air. Thanks for taking my posts out of context and trying to make me look like an idiot, you brat. I used CANON evidence to support my claims. This denizen, much like the others in this thread, are falling back to speculation and EU source material. Now, if you come up with something substantial and canon based, let me know.

The RotS VD states that Anakin cannot use Force lightning due to his cybernetic arms. Not to mention he cannot stop it either. According to this passage, Vader cannot direct the Force through his arms. (Mind you that while he raises a hand to Force choke Motti, he does not even break concentration or stride when he Force chokes Ozzel or Needa.) which is in favor of my theory, since it's stating that Vader cannot use his arms for the Force.

What I find more interesting is how in Han's last shot, there's what looks like a casing being ejected.

Cal Wright wrote:The RotS VD states that Anakin cannot use Force lightning due to his cybernetic arms. Not to mention he cannot stop it either. According to this passage, Vader cannot direct the Force through his arms. (Mind you that while he raises a hand to Force choke Motti, he does not even break concentration or stride when he Force chokes Ozzel or Needa.) which is in favor of my theory, since it's stating that Vader cannot use his arms for the Force.

Thank you for your overanalysis and blunt interpretation of the statement.

The RotS VD wrote:As a result of having artificial arms, Darth Vader will never be able to conjure Sith lightning--nor be invulnerable to it.

You of course magnify and misinterpret this to mean that Vader cannot direct the Force through his arms because they're artificial, rather than simply what it says. It says nothing on Vader's ability to direct the Force through his body.

Vader can't conjure Force Lightning because it would fry his arms, which is the same reason why he is vulnerable to it, and why his dependency on cybernetics eventually results in his death.

Yes, Vader demonstrated that he doesn't need to gesticulate in order to use Telekinetic Injure/Kill, but nor does he need to when moving physical objects with telekinesis, which has often included metal objects.

I can't debate with this kind of blunt, steadfast stupidity, so I'm going to have to leave it to someone else to knock some God damn sense into you.

Cal Wright wrote:I used CANON evidence to support my claims.

Canon evidence supporting your claim:
1) the words "gauntlet-protected hand" in the novelization.
2) ummm...that's it.

Canon evidence supporting use of the Force
1) Deflecting bolts of energy that can blast holes in reinforced concrete
2) Vader's tendency to use the Force to make a point (predominantly choking with the Force, but pulling the gun out of Han's hand is also a way of him saying "Yeah, your attacks do precisely dick.")
3) "Absorb/Dissipate" energy being a Force power which is used by pretty much every Jedi in the movies and EU (Yoda, Dooku, Obi-Wan, Luke in the ROTJ novelization, the Jedi in AOTC that was able to take 4 or 5 shots from the pistol Jango Fett uses to one-shot kill that rhino creature, etc)

I repeat my earlier statement: Claiming that "gauntlet-protected hand" means all the work of blocking the blaster bolts was done by Vader's gloves is akin to saying "Johnny's dog was run over while he was playing video games" means that playing HALO kills puppies.