StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Connor MacLeod wrote:Second, it also depends on how much of the beam is absorbed by the shielding and how much gets through.

There are sustained periods in which the beam cuts into the hull unabated by shield cover.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Third, assuming there IS melted or vaporized material, how do you propose it gets past the particle shielding and/or tensor fields? The energy beam isn't going to kncok those down unless it hits the projectors or generators.

What? By this logic every time a beam weapon hits a hull in space the vaporized hull shouldn't explode outwards because of particle shielding. Even without that, there is damaged or vaporized cuts in the hull that should have some heat loss to the surrounding air, particularly with shield collapse.

Connor MacLeod wrote:That depends on how much matter is vaporized alnog the path of the beam (and which also depends on what it hits.) Its quite possible for the beam to be mostly unimpeded by the hull until it hits something more durable (such as the reactor.)

Mike discussed the mechanics of a beam weapon drilling a hole through something before - specifically in reference to the superlaser action on a planet but applicable here as well: the column being cut must have the matter evacuated in a timely manner or it'll just explode outward within. So either way there should be internal explosions which probably won't be confined by a 10000:1 ratio, or the material must evacuate through the channel being vaporized. Either way there should be some heat loss from the material being deformed from absorbing gigatons of raw energy.

If these methods explained confined high-yields so well, why did everyone unanimously reject the hundred-kiloton yields for the warheads that demolished the IBC droids and attacked Core Ships from the LAAT/i's?

Connor MacLeod wrote:Note that we don't see the beam actually punch THROUGH the ship either. Its not inconceivable for the reactors to have extremely high heat-resistance (given the need for such devices to withstand comparable energy outputs for hours on end. For that matter, if the reactor were breached or damaged, its likely the ship would have blown up.)

Still, we're talking about enough raw power to vaporize a cut clean through hull cladding (and SW materials are famously durable and strong) with no appreciable waste heat loss from the damage commiserate with the absorbed energy.

Here's a thought. Perhaps the controls of the SPHAA/t are precise enough that the weapon fires at full power only precisely long enough to knock down the shields. They'd want to avoid releasing a WMD effect over their own troops, so the beam fires at terraton-level firepower for the fraction of a second it took the 5 SPHAAT's to break the shielding, and then it projected at a significantly lower setting.

Just a thought...

Thirdfain wrote:Here's a thought. Perhaps the controls of the SPHAA/t are precise enough that the weapon fires at full power only precisely long enough to knock down the shields. They'd want to avoid releasing a WMD effect over their own troops, so the beam fires at terraton-level firepower for the fraction of a second it took the 5 SPHAAT's to break the shielding, and then it projected at a significantly lower setting.

Just a thought...

But you still have to deal with the energy required to get through the hull plating, which should still be high enough for any bleedoff to be very noticable.

I just had a Thirdfain Inspired thought...What if the SPHAT is a ‘Surgical’ Weapon?

It has been long commented that if the SPHAT is basically a TurboLaser, why isn’t it a massive Blaster? And, to follow up, why do we not see the assumed reactions of a multi Giga Ton weapon? Surely a TL fiering should cause huge explosions. Well, I think we have an answer…

Basically, if you had a ‘True’ TurboLaser in the middle of a field of battle, you could easily wipe out your own forces as well as those of the enemy with a few miss-shots. Since it would be a massive blaster, a single shot could miss and make a very VERY big Boooom. it would be terribly Impractile to have a ‘Blaster’ based TL on a field… But a ‘Beam’ style TL, that’s a different story.

With that, you can be surgical precise in where it goes, and what level of firepower it uses. In this case, we don’t need to destroy the massive shields of a CoreShip, only pierce them like a knife. This would account for a number of things. Now you don’t need as much power, and the affect wouldn’t be as big as some predict.

Well, let me know what you think, and if this theory has been stated before.

I'd think it's the only logical explanation. That fits right into my personal theory that, in a planetary war, use of starships would certainly be a last resort, a true form of escalation due to the catastrophic yields. You don't want to be firing teraton-level weapons near friendlies or a population center; in fact, use of such weapons would inevitably result in a genocide. Surgical use of such weapons and variable yields are a must. In other words, a SPHAT could deliver teraton yields - as a last resort. Any teraton detonation would make the Soviet thermonuke detonated at Novaya Zemlya (60 mt, the largest ever tested) look like child's play. We need to remember that. I agree that the beam must have been at a low power setting, or else each hit would have looked like an airburst nuke.

Crossroads Inc. wrote:I just had a Thirdfain Inspired thought...What if the SPHAT is a ‘Surgical’ Weapon?

It has been long commented that if the SPHAT is basically a TurboLaser, why isn’t it a massive Blaster? And, to follow up, why do we not see the assumed reactions of a multi Giga Ton weapon? Surely a TL fiering should cause huge explosions. Well, I think we have an answer…

Basically, if you had a ‘True’ TurboLaser in the middle of a field of battle, you could easily wipe out your own forces as well as those of the enemy with a few miss-shots. Since it would be a massive blaster, a single shot could miss and make a very VERY big Boooom. it would be terribly Impractile to have a ‘Blaster’ based TL on a field… But a ‘Beam’ style TL, that’s a different story.

With that, you can be surgical precise in where it goes, and what level of firepower it uses. In this case, we don’t need to destroy the massive shields of a CoreShip, only pierce them like a knife. This would account for a number of things. Now you don’t need as much power, and the affect wouldn’t be as big as some predict.

Well, let me know what you think, and if this theory has been stated before.

I take it you don't subscribe to c. propagating turbolasers then?

Star-Blighter wrote:I take it you don't subscribe to c. propagating turbolasers then?

Eh... Explain?

Just the kinetic energy of the damned thing falling down is in the kiloton range, ie- WMD range. To a certain extent the sheer size and presumed heat capacity of the object has to factor into this, as do the shield systems.

Darth Wong wrote:Just the kinetic energy of the damned thing falling down is in the kiloton range, ie- WMD range. To a certain extent the sheer size and presumed heat capacity of the object has to factor into this, as do the shield systems.

IIRC, didn't the ship basicaly create a KT level event onscreen? I've got footage of a chemical plant blowing at something like .7 KT and its impressive. The core ship falling down reminded me of that, only larger.

I just suppose its matters of proportion. I mean I'm expecting maybe 1% waste heat, and then you have a several-gigaton event. Even a hundredeth of a percent and you're talking about a multi-megaton event. Its hard to imagine that weapon effects are that efficiently absorbed and confined to the target.

Thing is, if the hull of the ship absorbed 99.99999% of the shot, thats a BAD thing. Starship armor is designed to resist afterall.

Alyeska wrote:Thing is, if the hull of the ship absorbed 99.99999% of the shot, thats a BAD thing. Starship armor is designed to resist afterall.

Well a ship with an uber sci-fi-level heat capacity would still be a fair armor; it would absorb enormous amounts of energy without raising the temperature much.

But SW armor is stated to be superdispersive and superconducting - I said as much last page, which would suggest that it should be reradiating a good amount of that energy.

Which brings us right back to the original issue.

Do we have solid information on the core ship armor? If not, we could write off Saxton's statement as a mistake and just say the core ship relies on shields.

You're forgetting that the ship must have had some functional systems onboard until the moment it started falling. Objects do not suspend themselves against gravity for no reason. Its neutrino radiators could have been functional right up to the end, when the beams shut off (perhaps due to detection of heat buildup inside the enemy ship which indicated system-wide failure).

Darth Wong wrote:You're forgetting that the ship must have had some functional systems onboard until the moment it started falling. Objects do not suspend themselves against gravity for no reason. Its neutrino radiators could have been functional right up to the end, when the beams shut off (perhaps due to detection of heat buildup inside the enemy ship which indicated system-wide failure).

I'm not sure where your getting at with that.

Alyeska wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:You're forgetting that the ship must have had some functional systems onboard until the moment it started falling. Objects do not suspend themselves against gravity for no reason. Its neutrino radiators could have been functional right up to the end, when the beams shut off (perhaps due to detection of heat buildup inside the enemy ship which indicated system-wide failure).

I'm not sure where your getting at with that.

The ship has active heat-dissipation systems which probably function for not only its shields but also its hull. A lot of the incoming energy might have been dispersed by the neutrino radiators.

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:You're forgetting that the ship must have had some functional systems onboard until the moment it started falling. Objects do not suspend themselves against gravity for no reason. Its neutrino radiators could have been functional right up to the end, when the beams shut off (perhaps due to detection of heat buildup inside the enemy ship which indicated system-wide failure).

I'm not sure where your getting at with that.

The ship has active heat-dissipation systems which probably function for not only its shields but also its hull. A lot of the incoming energy might have been dispersed by the neutrino radiators.

The question Where comes to mind.

Alyeska wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote: I'm not sure where your getting at with that.

The ship has active heat-dissipation systems which probably function for not only its shields but also its hull. A lot of the incoming energy might have been dispersed by the neutrino radiators.

The question Where comes to mind.

Oh for fuck's sake, don't you know what neutrinos are?

Does that matter very much when dealing with neutrinos? I mean they're pretty much as close as you can get to a "nothing" particle...

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Does that matter very much when dealing with neutrinos? I mean they're pretty much as close as you can get to a "nothing" particle...

That's the whole point - if the ship was actively dispersing heat as neutrinos, it accounts for heat loss without visible and dramatic secondary effects.

For the record, I was replying to Alyeska and his inability to "get it", but it ended up after Mike's post. I do in fact understand the principles involved rather perfectly.

The question Where comes to mind.

is that really relevant as Neutrinos can penetrate just about everything with any signigant effect (of billions of Neutrinos that go thru the Earth every second only very few are detected).

Darth Wong wrote:Oh for fuck's sake, don't you know what neutrinos are?

No, I do not. However, after reading more in the thread I believe I had an idea of what they are.

Alyeska wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:Oh for fuck's sake, don't you know what neutrinos are?

No, I do not. However, after reading more in the thread I believe I had an idea of what they are.

Here's a refresh course:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

Very clever concept, very clever indeed. Bleed the energy into something that has a very small amount of interaction with the physical universe as we know it.