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Vympel wrote:Ok, I'm going to rate the movie right now, and then get into the details: 4/5. Very good, best of the prequel trilogy. Better than RotJ? Can't decide.

I'll follow the movie from start to finish. There are spoilers, obviously.

The Space Battle.

BIGGEST. LETDOWN. EVER.

That's right. I said it. It had to be said. I have never been so misled. This space battle had the shit hyped out of it, and practically nothing happens.

Why? Simple- Anakin & Obi-Wan are just making their way through duelling capital ships- trust me when I say that you have seen everything you've seen in the space battle that's really cool already if you've seen the trailers/tv spots/ Clone Wars DVD footage. It really is unfathomable. There's a few instances of capital ships fighting as Anakin & Obi-Wan fighting, but I was expecting more. I was expecting more dogfighting even, not a single scene at the very start where ARC-170s enage Vulture fighters and blow each other up for a few shots then "moving on".

What about Anakin and Obi-Wan, in their fighters? They do nothing. A Vulture droid launches buzz droid missiles at them, Anakin dodges his, Obi-Wan doesn't, buzz droid attack, buzz droid attack is defeated, Obi-Wan's ship is screwed, Anakin bumps him on a proper course, destroys the hangar generator (port side) of the Invisible Hand, they land.

End of space battle sequence. No fighting droid fighters. Nothing.

We get one more space battle sequence- that of a Venator pulling up alongside Invisible Hand and delivering a smack-down broadside, about 3/4 of which have already been seen in trailers and tv spots.

No more space battle.

Yeah. But it wasnt a letdown for me, because I already knew Lucas would concentrate on the characters, i.e. no grand space batttle.

The Invisible Hand sequence

This is a great sequence. Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship is established more in this sequence than in all of AotC. There is some excellent comic relief from both R2 and Anakin and Obi-Wan's dialog, as well as the Battle Droids even. They make their way to where the Chancellor is being held.

Agreed. R2 humour was appropriate and well-placed. Although I don't really like the SBD's voices. I always though SUPER battle droids should sound "tougher" rather than "cute".

Duel with Count Dooku

Surprisingly short. Too short, in my opinion. Christopher Lee dies only slightly slower than he does in RotK EE. Anakin is much more powerful, yes, and Palpatine during the fight is quite cool. Good scene, but I would've liked more.

Yes Dooku died too easily... Well, at least now we see that Anakin is all powerful.

Escaping the Invisible Hand/ Capture/ Ship Crash

This bit was cool. More good Anakin Obi-Wan banter, R2-D2 comedy, a fight on the bridge, etc. Strong. The ship crash was also well done.

Note: this is what I deem to be the strongest part of the 1st half of the movie, which is undoubtedly weaker than the second half- let's call it the first quarter. Overall, the first quarter was very good.

First quarter was good. No doubt about that.

Now for the rest of the first half:

Back to Coruscant

Marred only by some bad Anakin/Padme dialog. When they first meet, it's actually ok, but later in their apartment they return to AotC mode. Induced some cringes, groans, and laughter from the audience. This is bad.

The rest of this is perfectly good: Anakin gets his faith in the Jedi tested as they try and figure out just what Palpatine is playing at, insulted by being put on the Council but not being declared master etc. A superb scene where Anakin and Palpatine just talk at a Coruscant opera. Completely enthralling, Ian McDiarmid really shines.

A bit too wordy here. They could cut down the Padme/Anakin love pledges... but I'm just glad they weren't rolling on the field like in AOTC.

Utapau part 1

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan is sent looking for Grievous on Utapau. He quickly finds and engages Grievous in battle. Their fight sequence and the entire battle when the Clonetroopers arrive to reinforce is extremely well done. Thumbs up.

Nitpick. Grevious was reallly nerfed in this fight (vs the clone wars cartoon). In Clone Wars he took on 5 jedi and won, and he has been shown to win every jedi in 1 vs 1 combat, including Ki-Adi and Shak Ti (except for Mace). Either that or Obi-Wan has really upgraded himself since AOTC. And what's with Obi-wan new "stance"? The part where the moves his saber above his head and point it directly at Grevious... it seemed so un-jedi like...

Coruscant again

Anaking goes to see Palpatine to tell him Grievous has been found, etc. Palpatine makes his Sith Lord sales pitch. Another awesome scene. Anakin goes to tell the Council, Mace Windu gathers his posse.

Pretty ok here...

The arrest scene

I loved it. The way Palpatine fights is disturbing- his and Mace Windu's fight really isn't like anything we've seen before. I don't know how to describe it, but it works well- Palpatine's kind of a hissing ... something. There's also an excellent scene of Anakin and Padme figuratively looking at each other from the Jedi Temple and their apartment respectively, and it goes a long way to making Anakin' choice more credible.

Yup. By now I've noticed the Sith saber techniques are different from Jedi saber techniques, in that there is more "thrusting" or "stabbing" maneuvers. Jedi seem to do "slashing" maneuvers more often. I really liked the way old Palps fought, really show the aggressiveness, even in Sith combat skills.

The scene where Anakin makes his choice is great. In it, Palpatine conversion to Sidious is sudden and shocking- he's no longer the fatherly, nice old guy, he's a cackling maniac. It's the return of the Emperor from RotJ, and I relished every second of his cackling, manic ranting, from the moment he unleashes the lightning to the very end of the sequence where Anakin makes his choice and Mace Windu goes hurtling to his doom (with full powered force lightning- incadescent skeleton and all)- all while Palpatine is screaming: "UNLIMITED POWER!". Wow.

However, Palpatine was a bit over the top when he "knighted" Anakin moments later. No matter, it still doesn't detract from the scene much.

I didn't buy this part. Anakin's conversion seem rather quick. And he was clearly uncomfortable with pledging his loyalty to Sidious. Why did he seem so reluctant?
And Palps sort of lied to Anakin - he did tell Anakin that even he did not know the Sith power to prevent padme from dying, but will learn it together with Anakin? WTF? Hell, if I were anakin, I would say: "Lying bastard!" and kill him.

We are now in the second half of the movie. This kicks major ass from here on in

The Order 66 sequence of Jedi we recognize getting killed by their Clonetroopers is utterly awesome. One of the best sequences in all of Star Wars history. Without question. It's very gripping and tragic.

Nitpick. I would prefer if the Jedi put up more of a fight. Ok sure they were outnumbered and taken by surprise, but was these 2 factors really sufficient to gun down a Jedi?

On Kashyyk

Really, Kashyyk is split into the two halves because Yoda decides to goe there during the Council sequence in the first half, but I'll just discuss it in entirety here. It's very short, but visually pleasing, all of it.

However- it is really just action for action's sake. For the purposes of the script they needed Yoda not to be on Coruscant, but really, Chewie being in the film is totally unecessary, for one. It's a fan point, sort of like an apology for RotJ Ewoks, it seems.

The Clonetroopers turn on Yoda, of course, and he gets away with the help of the Wookies. All very short, but good.

Yep. I must say I loved the previous part when Yoda said "have good relations with the Wookies I have"... LOL. It was so well funny... imagine a short Yoda befriending tall and hairy wookies. Interesting company he keeps.

Temple sequence

Short, but excellent. Anakin is an evil bastard. Cool.

I would prefer seeing Anakin actually slaughtering the Jedi in the temple... Sadly no.

Utapau part 2

Obi-Wan gets turned on during the on going battle, he gets away. Kudos all around for another great battle sequence.

Yoda, Obi-Wan and Bail

So and so has happened, we've got to go do this at the Temple, etc. Moving the plot along, nothing objectionable, all in all good.

Anakin sees Padme after the purge

This was a fairly good scene, unmarred by the bad dialog in the first half.

Mustafar/Empire declaration/ Obi-Wan and Yoda in the Temple

Awesome sequence. Just watch it, it's all excellent.

Obi-Wan goes to see Padme

Nothing objectionable, as far as I can remember. Good dialog I think.

So far so good.

Palpatine vs Yoda, Vader vs Obi-Wan

Before Obi-Wan and Anakin fight, Padme and Anakin talk. I thought this was a powerful scene. Natalie Portman didn't quite do it for me, but Hayden Christensen was spot on in this. A great exchange.

Yes, I loved Anakin's force choke on his wife.

Both of these duels are great. The smack talk between Yoda and Palpatine is fucking gold. Vader and Obi-Wan just proceed to beat the shit out of each other. Palpatine and Yoda fight to a stalemate, Yoda buggers off. Back to the main duel. Some good dialog between them, but not enough.

Nitpick. I'm not happy with how Obi-wan held is own against Anakin for so long. Dooku died within minutes, and I believe at this point, Obi-wan is still no match for Dooku. Was it because he had a lot of space to retreat to and was playing a purely defensive game?

Vader's defeat: an incredible scene. I am lost for words. Just a great moment.

Fuck this sucks. Obi-wan was losing throughout the entire battle. Then finally, at the end Obi-wan declared he had a "higher ground". Anakin leaped at him, and Obi-wan sliced of 3 limbs!!! WTF??? Not again man... why did Anakin get defeated like a pussy like in AOTC? He is all powerful... And seriously does higher ground makes that MUCH difference in a saber duel?

Wrap up: Birth of Twins/ Vader in the suit

Also excellent. Really, there is not a single negtive point here.

I will now follow with some general, non review related comments.

Nitpick. I hate the pussy Vader in ROTS. His first words from his mouth was "where's my padme" - something to the effect. GOD! I always knew Vader as the cold, heartless dark lord, and they had to make him say this? Damn....

Rommie2006 wrote:
Yeah. But it wasnt a letdown for me, because I already knew Lucas would concentrate on the characters, i.e. no grand space batttle.

I knew he would focus on fighters, but heck- he didn't even do that.

Agreed. R2 humour was appropriate and well-placed. Although I don't really like the SBD's voices. I always though SUPER battle droids should sound "tougher" rather than "cute".

Me too- I thought they'd have a deep, tough guy voice.

A bit too wordy here. They could cut down the Padme/Anakin love pledges... but I'm just glad they weren't rolling on the field like in AOTC.

Yes thank god for that.

Nitpick. Grevious was reallly nerfed in this fight (vs the clone wars cartoon). In Clone Wars he took on 5 jedi and won, and he has been shown to win every jedi in 1 vs 1 combat, including Ki-Adi and Shak Ti (except for Mace). Either that or Obi-Wan has really upgraded himself since AOTC. And what's with Obi-wan new "stance"? The part where the moves his saber above his head and point it directly at Grevious... it seemed so un-jedi like...

Obi-Wan's apparently a master of many styles (novelization). Basically- he is that much better.

I didn't buy this part. Anakin's conversion seem rather quick. And he was clearly uncomfortable with pledging his loyalty to Sidious. Why did he seem so reluctant?

He was confused and there was still good in him- hence the "what have I done" thing etc.

And Palps sort of lied to Anakin - he did tell Anakin that even he did not know the Sith power to prevent padme from dying, but will learn it together with Anakin? WTF? Hell, if I were anakin, I would say: "Lying bastard!" and kill him.

Well, the thing is the power supposedly exists. So it's not really a lie [well, it is, but you know], they just both need to find it.

Nitpick. I would prefer if the Jedi put up more of a fight. Ok sure they were outnumbered and taken by surprise, but was these 2 factors really sufficient to gun down a Jedi?

In the back, by your trusted soldiers, in the middle of battle? I'd say so. The novel goes into more detail. Shroud of the darkside, lack of malice on the part of the Clonetroopers, etc.

Yep. I must say I loved the previous part when Yoda said "have good relations with the Wookies I have"... LOL. It was so well funny... imagine a short Yoda befriending tall and hairy wookies. Interesting company he keeps.

Heh yeah the audience was laughing at that too.

I would prefer seeing Anakin actually slaughtering the Jedi in the temple... Sadly no.

Yeah me too. Shaak-Ti was suppose to be there, he should've killed her. Or any other Jedi we've seen in say AotC.

Nitpick. I'm not happy with how Obi-wan held is own against Anakin for so long. Dooku died within minutes, and I believe at this point, Obi-wan is still no match for Dooku. Was it because he had a lot of space to retreat to and was playing a purely defensive game?

That and that he and Anakin know each other so well, they know what they're going to do, I think.

Fuck this sucks. Obi-wan was losing throughout the entire battle. Then finally, at the end Obi-wan declared he had a "higher ground". Anakin leaped at him, and Obi-wan sliced of 3 limbs!!! WTF??? Not again man... why did Anakin get defeated like a pussy like in AOTC? He is all powerful... And seriously does higher ground makes that MUCH difference in a saber duel?

It was a fluke, just like I thought it would be. It wasn't that Obi-Wan had the higher ground so much as Anakin, in his arrogance about his power, thought he could jump right at him. If he had just landed further down and fought his way up, the duel would've gone on. In any other situation it could never have happened.

Nitpick. I hate the pussy Vader in ROTS. His first words from his mouth was "where's my padme" - something to the effect. GOD! I always knew Vader as the cold, heartless dark lord, and they had to make him say this? Damn....

Because he's not cold, heartless or dark yet. He did it all for Padme. How'd you think he'd react when he learned she was dead, and he killed her? His asking about her (it wasn't as cheesy as "where's my padme" it's only "where is padme, is she alright?") simply had to be done. That wasn't pussy, as far as I think.

Vader has twenty years to grow cold and heartless. I personally don't expect something like that to occur overnight.

I'm tired so here is a very brief opinion.

Very enjoyable. The SB was a letdown as mentioned above, and at one stage in the first half I actually looked at my watch. But the movie turned so enjoyable after the Opera scene. I absolutely love Palpetine, he is pure evil. The fights were well done although perhaps the lightsabre battles were overdone a bit - must have been a good five or six major sabre fights in the film.

Is it just me or was Grevous a big letdown? My friend loved him but I thought he was just dumb. That cough was pathetic. An attempt at injecting humour by Lucas? Would have prefered a more wooden but clearly evil killing machine.

All in all very enjoyable and definantly the best of the new trilogy. Will watch it again next week. Fantastic CGI btw.

8/10.

ALI_G wrote: Is it just me or was Grevous a big letdown? My friend loved him but I thought he was just dumb. That cough was pathetic. An attempt at injecting humour by Lucas? Would have prefered a more wooden but clearly evil killing machine.

The reason for the cough, in IMO, was an attempt to make it crystal clear to the audience that he was not a droid. It's like all of Gandalf's exposition in LotR- you have to accomodate the people who are just too casual to notice things more attentive viewers would notice immediately, or even plot points that you'd think people would remember.

Example? Even after the many close-ups on Grievous' fleshy eyes, the closeup of his guts, the cough, I still heard him being referred to as a fucking "nothing but a battle droid" when we walked out. That's how stupid people are. The idiot I heard goes "droids don't cough!" Maybe that's because he isn't one, dumbass??!?!?!!?

I thought Grievous's coughing (out of universe) was because his actor had a coughing fit in a recording session and Lucas decided on the spur of the moment to keep it in? I could be wrong.

And it looks as if it'll be a few days for me, not a few hours. Stupid brother having to work tomorrow... *grumbles*

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:I thought Grievous's coughing (out of universe) was because his actor had a coughing fit in a recording session and Lucas decided on the spur of the moment to keep it in? I could be wrong.

It was because Grievous had his organs slightly Force-crushed in one of the last episodes of Clone Wars. Lucas liked the idea of him coughing constantly, and incorporated it into the character for the film.

Who created Grievous - having not seen the Clone Wars cartoons, I had the theory that Sidious created Grievous as a "test-bed" for the Darth Vader cybernetic life support.

weemadando wrote:Who created Grievous - having not seen the Clone Wars cartoons, I had the theory that Sidious created Grievous as a "test-bed" for the Darth Vader cybernetic life support.

As far as I've been able to tell, Sidious didn't intend for Vader to require life support, and was disappointed his new apprentice had such a tremendous handicap.

Grievous' cyborg body is technically the product of the InterGalactic Banking Clan, created through the actions of Count Dooku (he had the bomb planted in Grievous' ship), more than likely by order of Sideous.

Grievous' anger was artificially amplified and was also vigourously trained in lightsabre combat by Dooku. He was also given an experimental midichlorian transfusion from the corpse of Sifo Dias, as a test bed to create an artificial Sith, IIRC, although there doesn't seem to be much result from that aspect.

What was Grievous before he required his cybernetic body? He must have suffered some severe bodily harm...

Predator wrote:What was Grievous before he required his cybernetic body? He must have suffered some severe bodily harm...

He was an alien Kaleesh warrior. He was near-mortally wounded when Dooku had a bomb placed in Grievous' personal ship.

As far as can be told, as a Kaleesh, Grievous looked about the same as he did in his cyborg body, although his "face" was basically a ritual mask and he only had two arms instead of two that split into four.

One interesting thing was the use of "shells" with the guns of the Separist ships.

I was really, really, really disappointed with the complete lack of space battle action...

After seeing so much of things like the V-wing and ARC-170 in the ICS etc, to only have a few brief seconds of screen time with them? That sucked.

I wish to high heaven that if the TV series is made, it has space combat a go-go. SAAB style...

weemadando wrote:One interesting thing was the use of "shells" with the guns of the Separist ships.

Yeah, they're some kind of mass driver according to the RotS: VD. They blow through the hull next to one of the "windows" of the Venator SD that comes alongside the Invisible Hand, though of course the Venator SD won that slugging match (cool). The sound effects in that scene were great.

Ok, I have not seen it yet, but I can't take the suspense anymore!!!

Can someone tell me exactly waht we see in the last scene on bored the ISD? Doe we see the ship? Other ships? Do we see ANY sort of gathering Imperial Fleet? Anything at all?

Or...

Is it 20seconds of Tarken Vader and Palpatine standing on a bridge?

Crossroads Inc. wrote:
Can someone tell me exactly waht we see in the last scene on bored the ISD? Doe we see the ship? Other ships? Do we see ANY sort of gathering Imperial Fleet? Anything at all?

It's not an Imperator, it's a Venator- in grey Imperial color, not orange/brown Republic. V-Wings fly past it in ESB style, with the TIE-style engine whine. There are a few other Venators in the shot.

Or...

Is it 20seconds of Tarken Vader and Palpatine standing on a bridge?

No, it's Vader standing away from the window while Tarkin and the Emperor look at the skeleton of the Death Star in the distance. Vader then turns around and walks to where they're standing- Tarkin slinks off. You then see Vader and the Emperor as at the end of the trailer.

The bridge is exactly like the Star Destoryer bridge from TESB, complete with officers in the bridge pits etc.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Vader has twenty years to grow cold and heartless. I personally don't expect something like that to occur overnight.

Alright... alright.
It's just that I'm not used to this warm emotional Vader. The was cool when he becomes colder.

Vympel wrote:

ALI_G wrote: Is it just me or was Grevous a big letdown? My friend loved him but I thought he was just dumb. That cough was pathetic. An attempt at injecting humour by Lucas? Would have prefered a more wooden but clearly evil killing machine.

The reason for the cough, in IMO, was an attempt to make it crystal clear to the audience that he was not a droid. It's like all of Gandalf's exposition in LotR- you have to accomodate the people who are just too casual to notice things more attentive viewers would notice immediately, or even plot points that you'd think people would remember.

Example? Even after the many close-ups on Grievous' fleshy eyes, the closeup of his guts, the cough, I still heard him being referred to as a fucking "nothing but a battle droid" when we walked out. That's how stupid people are. The idiot I heard goes "droids don't cough!" Maybe that's because he isn't one, dumbass??!?!?!!?

Actually I thought of an explaination. Grevious was coughing at the start of the movie because Mace sort of force crushed his chest back at the end of Clone Wars cartoon. Could it be that his injury was unhealable and so severe, till it affects his fighting capabilities?

Firefox wrote:

weemadando wrote:Who created Grievous - having not seen the Clone Wars cartoons, I had the theory that Sidious created Grievous as a "test-bed" for the Darth Vader cybernetic life support.

As far as I've been able to tell, Sidious didn't intend for Vader to require life support, and was disappointed his new apprentice had such a tremendous handicap.

Yeah. Something to clarify... when you guys watched the scene where Sidious bent down to check on the almost dead Anakin... was he actually sad? I almost felt that Sidious was sad and sort of had kind of "dark love" for anakin.

Hey guys I also realised/noticed 2 things that were not mentioned:

1)Dooku vs Anakin/Obi-Wan fight at the start. I'm not sure if you guys got the same impression as I did, but did anyone notice Dooku's facial expression when he talked during the duel? I swore I saw fear in his eyes!
Was Dooku afraid to fight Anakin again knowing that he has become so much more powerful, and there may be a possibility that he will lose to Anakin.

2)Death Star construction at the end. FOR FUCK'S SAKE? Don't tell me the Death Star I is goiing to take 2 decades to build!!! God I seriously hate this part... I thought the Death Star II was completed within 9mths! Lucas... don't do this to us...

Rommie2006 wrote:Actually I thought of an explaination. Grevious was coughing at the start of the movie because Mace sort of force crushed his chest back at the end of Clone Wars cartoon.

Thank you, I already said that.

Rommie2006 wrote:Hey guys I also realised/noticed 2 things that were not mentioned:

2)Death Star construction at the end. FOR FUCK'S SAKE? Don't tell me the Death Star I is goiing to take 2 decades to build!!! God I seriously hate this part... I thought the Death Star II was completed within 9mths! Lucas... don't do this to us...

Well, it was at the skeletal stages after the Republic had completely overhauled its fleet and installed Tarkin. IE, it wasn't the next day.

Blah, can we not rehash the whole Death Star timeframe discussion again for the umpteenth time?

Rommie2006 wrote: 2)Death Star construction at the end. FOR FUCK'S SAKE? Don't tell me the Death Star I is goiing to take 2 decades to build!!! God I seriously hate this part... I thought the Death Star II was completed within 9mths! Lucas... don't do this to us...

What on Earth does the DS2 have to do with the DS1? Nothing. The DS2 was built to around 50-60% complete far quicker, upper limit, 3 years. It doesn't matter one bit. Watch the opening crawl of RotJ.