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Darth Wong wrote:

Molyneux wrote:Was I the only person who thought that Order 66 was something more hardwired into the clone troopers - not even indoctrinated, but literally built into them? I mean, they were altered at least somewhat from the original (Jango), and I find it hard to believe that even highly-disciplined troops would be able to just turn on people who'd saved their lives, that quickly and with no sign of remorse...

Why? I haven't read the novel, but in the film the Jedi appear to treat the clones as disposable toy soldiers. They don't seem to take much notice of it when a clonetrooper goes down, and the only people we ever see trying to help wounded clonetroopers are other clonetroopers. Jedi seem oblivious to clonetrooper casualties. So I personally didn't feel that they should expect that much loyalty from their men.

As a former soldier, I must disagree with this. We don't really see that many scenes where Jedi interact with the clone troopers, especially in the aftermath of battles. Nor do we see any scenes where Jedi callously order clone troopers to undertake missions wherein the troopers are certain to undertake unusally heavy losses. In fact I don't ever see the Jedi ordering the clones to undertake missions of the sort that real military officer wouldn't oerder his men to undertake. Even the best officers, those who love their men, realize that any mission is dangerous, and no battle may be fought without some casualties being taken. And yet they do it anyway. Robert E. Lee once observed that a great general must love his army, and yet must also be willing to order the death of the thing he loves. Lee was a great commander who won the undying loyalty of the men who served under him, despite his willingness to order them on missions that were certain to kill many of them (e.g. Pickett's charge). So was Alexander, Caesar, Napoleon, Rommell, Patton, and many other commanders throughout history. I didn't see anything in any of the movies to indicate that the Jedi were any more callous with the lives of their soldiers than any of these great commanders.

Darth Wong wrote:Why? I haven't read the novel, but in the film the Jedi appear to treat the clones as disposable toy soldiers. They don't seem to take much notice of it when a clonetrooper goes down, and the only people we ever see trying to help wounded clonetroopers are other clonetroopers. Jedi seem oblivious to clonetrooper casualties. So I personally didn't feel that they should expect that much loyalty from their men.

There is evidence for Jedi caring about troopers. Anakin wanted to help Oddball's squadron, Obi-wan was on a nickname basis with Cody, and Jedi are shown leading troopers from the front, deflecting blasters when possible. I'm leaning to Order 66 being hard-wired. Clonetroopers didn't even ask "Why?" before clearing leather and blasting Jedi. Clones develop different personalties, and many owed their lives to Jedi. It may have been nice to show Commander Cody question the order, and then have Sidious say "Just do it!"

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:I don't see why everyone assumes that Order 66 needed Clonetroopers to work. If you're an officier in the military, and an order comes directly from your Commander in Chief that someone is a traitor and needs to be killed immediately, and that person belongs to a group that you have distrusted for a long time, are you going to question that order or warn the target?

Soldiers aren't unthinking robots. If the President told me directly to shoot another soldier, I would have asked why.

I'm still with the hardwired idea. Also I'm still with the idea that probably people reviewing the training programs are under control of Palpatine.

Or Palpatine himself is in control such a committee.

Regarding the hardwired suggestion, you guys aren't saying that it's a Manchurian Candidate sleeper agent kind of thing, are you?

It was the idea of the Jedi for Clones to take on names as well (Cody, Bacara, Bly, Oddball, Neyo, etc.).

My post (the last post on page 1 of the thread) is almost a direct response to the ideas put forth in the first two posts on this thread.

If anyone found that my post was too long to read in its entirety, just read the second last paragraph. It addresses those concerns directly.

Deathstalker wrote:Soldiers aren't unthinking robots. If the President told me directly to shoot another soldier, I would have asked why.

A Clonetrooper would not. He might question it in his thoughts, but he would carry the order out without pause.

Cykeisme wrote:A Clonetrooper would not. He might question it in his thoughts, but he would carry the order out without pause

If Order 66 is hardwired/imprinted into clones then I agree, and they wouldn't question it, even in their thoughts. I think you suggested that in your earlier post. With out the hardwiring/imprinting, I think at least some of the clones would have questioned the order. If order 66 was just something mentioned in passing, then Sidious couldn't gurantee every clone would obey the order. Hardwiring/imprinting/Sith Mind tricks gurantees compliance.

It could be that Order 66 was specifically hardwired into their training regimen, or it could be the fact that blind obedience is hardwired into their training.

They're not meat droids- they do develop differentiated personalities, have feelings, they are human... well, Mandalorian, in flesh as well as the physical component of their brain.

But they are also drilled to jump when the proper authorities say jump. Their disposable nature is impressed on them from the beginning of their training- they will die, but the GAR will go on. Furthermore, at least the Commandos and ARC troopers are also aware that their lifespans are unnaturally stunted anyway.

Are they not genetically engineered to be more obedient than Jango? I would just assume that the genetic engineering is particularly effective. They've designed these clonetroopers to be blindly obedient - that any individual personality development would be relatively minor and insufficient to overcome their genetic predisposition.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Regarding the hardwired suggestion, you guys aren't saying that it's a Manchurian Candidate sleeper agent kind of thing, are you?

Yes, that's actually exactly what I was saying.

Hrm.. what I'm wondering is whether the Clones have doubts about the order which are totally overwhemled by their genetically imprinted sense of duty, OR whether they felt no doubts at all.

For a normal human soldier who receives such orders, it would be
"I SHOULDN'T DO IT.. but I must.", followed by seconds, minutes or hours of hesitation and deliberation which may or may not result in the orders being carried out.

As for the Clonetroopers, did they even feel any doubts:
a) "I shouldn't do it.. BUT I MUST FOLLOW MY ORDERS", but still with no hesitation at all.

or did Order 66 override them "Manchurian Candidate" style, meaning simply:
b) "I MUST FOLLOW MY ORDERS", obviously with no hesitation either.


I found it difficult to describe, and using caps for emphasis on what the clone feels more strongly is perhaps not the best way. If I fail to convey my idea, tell me.

Molyneux wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Regarding the hardwired suggestion, you guys aren't saying that it's a Manchurian Candidate sleeper agent kind of thing, are you?

Yes, that's actually exactly what I was saying.

Okay. That means you're completely wrong.

Petrosjko wrote:It could be that Order 66 was specifically hardwired into their training regimen, or it could be the fact that blind obedience is hardwired into their training.

They're not meat droids- they do develop differentiated personalities, have feelings, they are human... well, Mandalorian, in flesh as well as the physical component of their brain.

But they are also drilled to jump when the proper authorities say jump. Their disposable nature is impressed on them from the beginning of their training- they will die, but the GAR will go on. Furthermore, at least the Commandos and ARC troopers are also aware that their lifespans are unnaturally stunted anyway.

Shatterpoint wrote:General Windu, as far as CRC-09/571 could determine, was ordering the clones to die. But CRC-09-571 could no more disobey a lawful order than he could walk through armour plate.

This was in response to Mace's order that the landers carrying a regiment of Clones stop shooting back at the Separatists pursuing them. Admittedly, he did demand confirmation of Mace's identity, but aside from frustration, he never even considered disobeying, even though he expected it to lead to the deaths of himself and everyone under his command. That's pretty damn obedient.

Although... am I the only person who wonders why Palpatine put it in as a "General Order"? Presumably there are General Orders which are used more than once, meaning that their commanders (including Jedi) would need to know what they were, and they might get suspicious if they noticed that there was nothing listed for Order #66, or that it was classified. I suppose it's possible that there are only 65 General Orders that are actually listed, and #66 was made the last one so that nobody would be suspicious at it's absence from the list.

Darth Wong wrote:I would expect that despite fighting side by side with the Jedi, the clones (and everyone else in the Republic, for that matter) had been harbouring a certain amount of concern about the Jedi belief that they had the right to decide what does and doesn't happen in government. Add to that Palpatine's subtle mind influencing power and whatever media they have in place (whose editorials and machinations we never see, unfortunately) and it's possible that quite a lot of people in and out of the military have been fearing a Jedi coup attempt for some time (this would make particularly good sense if the Jedi had been making noise about their misgivings with the direction of the Republic).

So when Order 66 came through, it's entirely possible that the clones thought: "Well damn, the Jedi finally went and did it. They tried to overthrow the government. Traitorous bastards, I guess I know what I have to do now."

Don't forget that it was established in AOTC that the clones had been modified to be less independent and that they, according to Lama Su, would be "taking any order without question". It seems as if Order 66 was instilled in the clones from very early on and when the order came from Palpatine to carry it out, the clones didn't question it, but carried it out in a brutal fashion.

The closest light of hardwired or learned the novel gives of Order 66 is thus.

Directly after Order 66 was given.

page 345 wrote:
Cody responded as he had been trained since before he'd even awakened in his creche school.

This lends the idea that some sort of imprinting before they came outside and started their military training.

Well doesn't Lucas now say that the "recruites" weren't put into the Stormtrooper legions until the OT era? So I don't think we really have to worry about non-clones in ROTS getting the Order and going "WTF???"

And no, I haven't read the supplementary materials yet, so if it's revealed and contradicted there, just ignore this.

It's interesting to note that the Commanders get the message and from the movie, they just nod at their troopers who then open up on the Jedi.

So either they have a comm. unit that nobody can hear, or all the Clones know that it's coming and are just waiting for the 'go code'.

Knife wrote:It's interesting to note that the Commanders get the message and from the movie, they just nod at their troopers who then open up on the Jedi.

So either they have a comm. unit that nobody can hear, or all the Clones know that it's coming and are just waiting for the 'go code'.

I'd go with the comm idea. There's plenty of evidence to suggest they have them.

Pure Sabacc wrote:

Knife wrote:It's interesting to note that the Commanders get the message and from the movie, they just nod at their troopers who then open up on the Jedi.

So either they have a comm. unit that nobody can hear, or all the Clones know that it's coming and are just waiting for the 'go code'.

I'd go with the comm idea. There's plenty of evidence to suggest they have them.

But we hear them communicate with the other clones too. So?????

But we hear them communicate with the other clones too. So?????

Not always. On occasion, you see clones incline their head (stormies as well, later on) to listen to something, but you can't hear what there saying.