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18-Till-I-Die wrote:I've personally never felt sorry for Anakin since he was a child. As a child he seemed like a good kid, and i feel sympathy because he was a slave, but as an adult he was a complete dick. And a whiny abusive dick at that. So no i dont feel sorry for Anakin, o feel sorry for the thousands of people dead because of him though.

That's more or less how I feel. He's arrogant and he really lets things get to his head in a bad way and I was hoping for Yoda or Mace to knock some sense into him. He may be an adult but he acts like a whiny teenage punk for most of the movie, and he's about as bright as one too, which is to say, not very.

Crown wrote:*snip*

Yes I know he said it, but the way they act betrays their true relationship. Like I said they carry on like an 'odd couple' or two people that are friends but who have spent too much time in the same room together. Remember that Obi-wan says to Anakin before he is knighted "It is time we became brothers." (Clone Wars cartoons, part three). Also Obi-wan considers Anakin like a brother to him in ROTS.

Meanwhile, Anakin considers Palpatine a friend and calls him such, yet their relationship seems to me to be clearly a father-son relationship. He goes to Palpatine for advice, encouragement, and sympathy, as well as confiding in him his thoughts; conversely, Palpatine never stops encouraging Anakin to be better than everyone else (which subtlely reinforces Anakin's arrogance), while teaching him his own peculiar brand of wisdom (again, subtle way of edging poor Anakin towards the dark side).

Crown wrote:EDIT :: You know what I can't understand? How are people confusing the Anakin/Palpatine realationship as father/son? Honestly, Palpatine is the kind uncle who tells you everything that you want to hear, listens to you whinge bitch and moan and nods sagely and tells you that everything will be alright, the kind uncle who builds up your self esteem and says; don't worry we'll keep this little rule breaking to ourselves, no need to tell your father (Obi-Wan) *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*. The old kind uncle, who from time to time calls your parents rude words when you're pissed at them in order to garner your trust.

An uncle is actually still a father figure. You correctly shown an Uncle to be a competitive father figure, though. But the relationship Anakin has with Palpatine shows one of mutual respect, but still one is wiser and older and more experienced than the other, who's young and trying to figure things out.

Obi-wan is still Anakin's 'brother' - he happens to be an Older brother, but a brother nonetheless. The way they bitch and moan at each other shows this more and more. Yoda and Mace each take up father figures themselves, with Yoda being the father who is cold and distant, while Mace is the father that is hostile and adversarial.

But Obi-wan and Anakin being brothers makes sense in context.

Stofsk wrote:

Crown wrote:*snip*

Yes I know he said it, but the way they act betrays their true relationship. Like I said they carry on like an 'odd couple' or two people that are friends but who have spent too much time in the same room together. Remember that Obi-wan says to Anakin before he is knighted "It is time we became brothers." (Clone Wars cartoons, part three). Also Obi-wan considers Anakin like a brother to him in ROTS.

All the more reason that when anyone mentions Anakin's father/son relationship they should think of Anakin and Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan waited until Anakin was knighted before he said they should be 'like brothers'. Possibly a tool so that the Master/student relationship is severed and a young knight doesn't feel that he has to defer to his master (or that his master is holding him back for the whinny little asshole padawan/knight).

Stofsk wrote:Meanwhile, Anakin considers Palpatine a friend and calls him such, yet their relationship seems to me to be clearly a father-son relationship. He goes to Palpatine for advice, encouragement, and sympathy, as well as confiding in him his thoughts; conversely, Palpatine never stops encouraging Anakin to be better than everyone else (which subtlely reinforces Anakin's arrogance), while teaching him his own peculiar brand of wisdom (again, subtle way of edging poor Anakin towards the dark side).

Ahhh, I don't think you read my edit to the post you're responding to. Palapatine's relationship with Anakin (as depicted in the movies and prequel era EU), is definetely kind uncle/nephew relationship.

But the kicker was the scene in the lava pit, where Anakin is pathetically holding on to that ledge and screaming at Obi Wan like a pissed off 8 yo. "I had you!" Obi Wan looked so disgusted at that point that you can see that this is precisely the moment that he decides Anakin is gone and why he and Yoda are so adamant in the OT that there is no good in him. That was such a beautiful scene in the sense that it made the AUDIENCE believe there was no turning back.

It's I hate you, not I had you.

Vympel wrote:

But the kicker was the scene in the lava pit, where Anakin is pathetically holding on to that ledge and screaming at Obi Wan like a pissed off 8 yo. "I had you!" Obi Wan looked so disgusted at that point that you can see that this is precisely the moment that he decides Anakin is gone and why he and Yoda are so adamant in the OT that there is no good in him. That was such a beautiful scene in the sense that it made the AUDIENCE believe there was no turning back.

It's I hate you, not I had you.

Damn, even more nasty and visceral though the "I had you" I misheard definately struck the right chord of arrogance and petulance that the Darkside would have amplified in Anakin.

Crown wrote:Ahhh, I don't think you read my edit to the post you're responding to. Palapatine's relationship with Anakin (as depicted in the movies and prequel era EU), is definetely kind uncle/nephew relationship.

I get the feeling we're arguing the same thing here.

Here's the way I see it: Anakin has a 'master/student' relationship with the following people

1. Obi-wan

2. Palpatine

3. Yoda

4. Mace Windu

5. Sidious

1. Their 'master/student' relationship takes the form of two people who are too close in age to be considered a father and a son (Ewan and Hayden look to be close enough in age that you could call them brothers but with one huge age gap). In any case, the master is an 'elder brother' while the student is a 'younger brother'. This form of the relationship is more equal than the others, yet the former never stops teaching the latter the ropes. Think of the older sibling who looks out for you and teaches you what he knows, yet then jabs you in the ribs when you're not looking. (replace jab with 'verbal wit' and you've got Obi-wan's own bitchiness down to a pat)

2. The 'uncle-nephew' idea. Here as you say, it's a competitive father figure in that the uncle isn't the actual father, but more of a rival. There is that sense of "Let's keep it between ourselves, no-one has to know *wink wink*" conspiratorial feelings.

3. The unapprochable father. Consider that when Anakin is clearly stressed and upset by his prescient nightmares, he seeks Yoda's counsel - only to find it completely worthless due to Yoda not being 'with it' to understand where Anakin is coming from. Yoda remains a father figure but cannot be approached. He is the father you try to connect with but realise you're too different from each other and you just don't know how to relate.

4. The Disappointed father. The father who looks at you as an accident. The father who doesn't trust you, doesn't like you, never took an interest in you, never made an effort to understand you. The hostile, adversarial father figure. Mace fits this down to a pat.

5. The Hated father. Like 4, but worse. Because this father lied to you and caused you your ruin. In this sense, Sidious definitely fits. At this point, Vader has no-one and nothing of his old life, and he really has nothing more than Sidious - and he fucking HATES it.

Make sense? A father figure in the mythological sense doesn't have to be a literal 'he's my dad!' but a way of expressing the 'master/student' archetype.

I did not feel sorry for Anakin. In fact, I felt sorry for every one around him rather than him. The final scene at the lava flow sealed it in for me, I feel sorry for Obi Wan.

The pain in his face, the hurt and betrayal is evident when he tells Anakin "You were the choosen one. We were brothers." That was the tragedy, not Anakins fall.

Was the Jedi teaching flawed? Yes, that's actaully a plot point in the movie, but Obi never did anything but love the little brat. Trained him and loved him like a father.

Hell, as Obi leaves to go to Utapua, when he and Anakin say goodbye (ironically for the last time) Obi even does the fatherly bit of telling Anakin that 'he wasn't always the best of fathers but did his best' but was still proud of how Anakin turned out.

And, to me, it rang true. Obi actaully believed it and was proud of Anakin, much like Qui Jon was with him. It litterly broke Obi's heart on Mustafa.

I also felt sorry, obviously, for the younglings and padawans in the temple. Fuck Anakin, those poor kids.

Stofsk wrote:

Crown wrote:Ahhh, I don't think you read my edit to the post you're responding to. Palapatine's relationship with Anakin (as depicted in the movies and prequel era EU), is definetely kind uncle/nephew relationship.

I get the feeling we're arguing the same thing here.

Here's the way I see it: Anakin has a 'master/student' relationship with the following people

1. Obi-wan

2. Palpatine

3. Yoda

4. Mace Windu

5. Sidious

<snip>

Make sense? A father figure in the mythological sense doesn't have to be a literal 'he's my dad!' but a way of expressing the 'master/student' archetype.

I like your list, the only things I disagree with are with 1 and 2 (obviously). 1 didn't become this way until after AotC, (remember Obi-Wan is easily 30 in TPM by actors age alone) and before that it was just your true father/son relationship.

With 2, you agree with the uncle/nephew idea - but the thing is that Palpatine isn't a competing* father figure for Anakin ... yet he is still sowing the seeds (at least by AotC). Anakin doesn't see him as a father figure until Palpatine is Sidious in any of the information I have my hands on.

Yes, I emphatically agree that the term 'father figure' doesn't have to be the literal 'he's my dad' (that's a no brainer considering Anakin's origins and Obi-Wan's non-compliance with sex), but there needs to be a distinguishing point by what we mean when we refer to 'father figure'. Who was Anakin's father figure? The correct answer is Obi-Wan. The more broad (and still correct) definition is all of the above. See? We either apply father/son relationship to 'all of the above' until it gets a bit ridiculous, or we - you know - differentiante; TPM - AotC Obi-Wan. Clone Wars - RotS??? Post RotS Sidious, etc.




*I mean we could (sort of contradicting myself here) say that Palpatine truely is the competing father figure in AotC (and why not, it does make sense), but competing against whom? Obi-Wan of course. But to whom would we bestow the title of 'father figure' at this stage? To the guy who has held it for the past 10 years, or to the guy who is challenging him?

As you can see, these are the kind of discussions that can drive a psychologist to drink. So lets keep it simple. Father/Son = Obi-Wan/Anakin and Sidious/Vader, anything else gives me a headache.

EDIT :: Changed Ewan's age for the TPM bit, as he would have been around 30 in TPM given that he is now 36 - plenty of time to have father a child around Anakin's age in TPM.

No, in TPM Obi-Wan was 25. He was 35 in AotC, and 38 in RotS.

(RotS novelization). You didn't really think Obi-Wan was a Padawan at 30, did you?

Though Obi-Wan is sixteen standard years Anakin's elder, they have become men together.

(Anakin was 9 in TPM, 19 in AotC, and 22 in RotS).

Very telling that Anakin was a Jedi Knight on the verge of being a Master at a time when Obi-Wan was still a Padawan.

Vympel wrote:No, in TPM Obi-Wan was 25. He was 35 in AotC, and 38 in RotS.

(RotS novelization). You didn't really think Obi-Wan was a Padawan at 30, did you?

<Fanboy>Qui-Gon was holding him back!</Fanboy>

No, I know there's a 10 year gap between TPM and AtoC (duh) but I was using the actors age due to the fact that there is a six year gap between TPM and RotS for Ewan, even if it's a 13 year gap for Obi-Wan.

Vympel wrote:Very telling that Anakin was a Jedi Knight on the verge of being a Master at a time when Obi-Wan was still a Padawan.

Umm, three year difference (22 vs 25) ... considering that one is the Chosen One and the other isn't, no it isn't very telling.

I posted this elsewhere;

It stands to reason that Yoda, knowing of the "Always two there are" rule, told the other Jedi after Darth Maul was killed that there was at least one more Sith Lord out there. And it stands to reason that he would recruit another apprentice, or begin to train an apprentice of his own since his master was killed (since they didn't know if the master or the apprentice was destroyed). So it was very possible that soon there would be two again.

And keep in mind that a Sith Lord killed qui-Gon Jinn who was Anakin's staunchest supporter and was willing to realize his dream of being a Jedi even if the Jedi Council disapproved. so wouldn't you hate the Sith at this point? I know I would.

Ten years later, Anakin still hasn't learned anything about the new Sith Lord. At this point, he still pines for Padme, and she is almost assassinated in an attempt ordered by Nute Gunray, who is a Separatist, who works for Count Dooku, the Separatist leader. Later confronting Dooku, many Jedi are killed in the subsequent battle, and anakin loses an arm. So I know I would hate Count Dooku at this point as well if before all I had was an interest in his capture. Strike 2 against the Sith.

Strike 3 against the Sith is the fact that Dooku, now obviously the new Sith lord (since he left the Jedi Order after Qui-Gon was killed) has started a war on the scale that the Republic hasn't seen in centuries, if ever, and this conflict has killed trillions.

So when Palpatine reveals himself as the missing Sith Lord to Anakin (after much buttering him up), Anakin suddenly is ONLY torn. A rush of thoughts likely entered his head, so he was obviously confused. But after a moment of gathering his thoughts, he should have thought of a few things:

1. Another Sith Lord who was probably Palpatine's apprentice killed Qui-Gon Jinn.
2. His next apprentice took part in a plot to kill Padme. LEt's ignore the stuff with the animals in the arena, since that could be construed as legally punishing trespassers on an isolationist world.
3. The Same sith Lord starts an insanely bloody war.
4. That Sith Lord is dead. The mystery Sith will need a new apprentice. Oh, hey, this guy that has been praising me at every turn is that Sith Lord! He tells me everything I want to hear, and depsite the fact that the Sith have only destroyed in my experience, he says he can prevent Padme's death.

Thinking about this, he should have realized that it was all bullshit, and Palpatine is perhaps the single most destructive entity in existence, and knowing this, it should have been quite easy for him to come to the conclusion that he was lying.

so Anakin was a complete idiot. He was tormented most of his life by the Sith, and suddenly joined the monsters based on a vague promise. If there was no OT, just these movies, I would have wished for a very painful death for him.

Before anyone points out to me that he was desperate to save Padme, think of this:

1. He ignored his dreams about his mother.
2. His mother died.
3. Therefore, any action he takes as soon as he starts having them might prevent them. Hell, he should have just gotten Padme to a hopsital and kept her under observation 24/7. As fiery as she is, she might agree to it knowing what she knows about his mother.

If I have any of my facts wrong, feel free to point them out.

According to the novel, Anakin did not ignore the dreams... he was told to disregard them by Obi-Wan.

LadyTevar wrote:According to the novel, Anakin did not ignore the dreams... he was told to disregard them by Obi-Wan.

Gotta love that Jedi advice:

"Dreams pass with time." Gee thanks Obi Wan. I appreciate your empathy on this matter remind me of this conversation in three years when I'm trying to hack you to pieces.

"Celebrate the death of a loved one, it is a natural event in the Force." Wow Yoda. Thanks. What would I do without such telling empathy from you. You too will know pain when the revolution comes jack ass.

The Jedi are so clueless about the pain of others sometimes that you have to wonder how they got as far as they did. Sort of like a certain instution being cluless about the pain and suffering caused by pedophilia.

Mmmm... I felt kinda sorry for Anakin, both at the pathetic burning stump that screamed by the river of lava, and when he asked Palpatine about Padme- only for Palpatine to tell him that he had killed her.

For most of the movie, all I feel was a sense of impending diaster, both for Anakin, the Jedi and the Republic. Anakin was so desperate for the power to save Padme that it blinded him, even once he knew who Palpatine really was. He made the wrong choice for the right reason, in his mind, but the price to be paid for that choice and that reason was devastating.

LadyTevar wrote:According to the novel, Anakin did not ignore the dreams... he was told to disregard them by Obi-Wan.

That was just a concise way of saying he didn't do anything about them.

I felt sorry for him at the end. Mostly because of the life he threw away for nothing. Part of the reason I felt sorry may also be because I could relate to his thirst for power, and for that matter could relate to being screwed over by women/love (I know this wasn't all that screwed him over, but you know what I mean). But obviously part of the reason I feel sorry for him was that all this takes place in a fictional time and place, no matter how many sob stories I hear about Hitler, I never feel sorry for him.

I absolutely feel sorryfor him. giving up everything cuz he loved her, and it caused her to stop loving him?

thats *rough*

Mr. T wrote: and for that matter could relate to being screwed over by women/love (I know this wasn't all that screwed him over, but you know what I mean).

How did Padme screw him over?

She kept their secret and she stood by him and loved him, even though he supported Palpy. Even at the end she is still convinced there is good in him despite what he has done.

The only time she turns against him is after she finds out he slaughtered a bunch of kids and is plotting to over throw Palpy like he did the senate. And in those circumstances it's pretty damn understandable to turn against him.