Adrian Laguna wrote:I think that Rapax (not the guy who claims Modern Armies > Star Wars) just handed me my ass. I gave a list of each and every Stormtrooper engagement in order to prove that they are competent marksmen. His reply:
Hardly. You just give in too easily.
Rapax wrote:I think we had that covered? As they are shooting at expendable generic rebel soldiers, obviously they're gonna succeed. It's like the guy in Star Trek that no one's ever seen before but who will accompany the main characters on a dangerous mission. Someone's gotta die.
In other words, he dismisses a perfectly legitimate example and ignores suspension of disbelief.
Obi-Wan's assessment, in light of general stormtrooper performance shown in the movie, can be wonderfully regarded as irony
Circular logic--using his conclusion as a premise to disregard evidence.
Sure, Han was standing there for a moment with a surprised look on his face and singlehandly turned the landing bay into debris while a squad of stormtroopers quickly huddled into cover frantically shooting and hitting anything but the target. I don't know what you find pretty accurate about it but it's one example of how Stormtroopers can't kill the main characters.
The unstated assumption is that they were shooting at Han, even they said, "Stop that SHIP" and had no way of knowing Han was the pilot. They were clearly shooting at the SHIP, not Han
4)Death Star Detention Block - Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and Luke were all taking cover behind some columns and firing back, the Stormtroopers were still probably trying to kill them. Nothing I saw leads me to believe they have bad aim.
Why yes, it's incredibly hard to simply shoot down a narrow corridor. At the beginning it worked perfectly, but now somehow it doesn't. Again it's the golden rule that the generic henchmen can't kill the main characters.
Again, he ignores suspension of disbelief. And considering that Vader thought the Princess might still be of use to them the moment they captured the Falcon, its clear the non-lethal herding action had already begun.
5)Death Star - Stormtroopers under orders not to kill them. They manage to do this without being too obvious about it, seeing as many of the misses were very close.
That's quite interesting. Whenever they miss at other points, it's bad luck but now that they, apparently, do it on purpose, they do an excellent job. Talk about point of view, eh?
Appeal to mockery. He has no answer what-so-ever for the blatently obvious conclusion that the Rebels were to be let go, so he tries to make fun of it.
6)Hoth - The Stormtroopers only got a very short window to shoot Han and Leia as they crossed a hallway. It was rather unlikely for either of them to be hit.
Wouldn't that be Snowtroopers then? Either way it's irrelevant since they don't really get a chance as you said.
Since Snowtroopers and Stormtroopers are BOTH imperial soldiers and probably receive similar training (the only difference being one is specific for cold environments), he's grasping at straws. Notice that during the rest of the battle, the Imperial troops were gunning rebels down all over the place, especially the walkers from ranges of many km.
7)Cloud City - I'm not quite sure what to make of this battle. It is quite similar to movies with modern weapons were the heroes take cover and the bad guys almost hit them, or the heroes always duck just in time. It is also possible that the Imperials were trying to capture them or herd them towards the Millenium Falcon so that Vader could tractor beam them into his Destroyer.
Yes, you seem to stumble over your own argument on this one.
Vader wanted Leia and company to rescue Luke. Thats why there were no guards near the Falcon, the stormtroopers always attacked from the read or the sides and the Falcon's hyperdrive was deactivated.
He has no answer for your final point. Nail him on that.

Battle of Hoth (actually
Endor) - We barely got to see anything in this battle. For example there where at least a dozen Rebel soldiers which aren't shown fighting. In any case up untill Chewbacca hijacked one of the AT-STs the Rebels and Ewoks were suffering heavy casualties and starting to retreat despite having advantages in numbers, knowledge of terrain and surprise. (from Novelization, not contradicted by movie). As the Ewoks begin to seize the iniciative with Chewie's help, we see a Stormtrooper hit R2-D2. Then either the same Trooper or a different one almost* hits Leia. Both of this shots were from a distance of 20-30 meters and quite difficult, especially the second one since it was quite clearly a quick snap shot.
*I have watched the scene very carefully in slow-motion. It is hard to tell but the shot most likely hit the wall next to Leia and she was wounded by the explosion or a molten peice of metal. This is supported by the amount of time it took Leia to react to the shot.
Yes, supposedly it's the emperor's "Elite Legion" which makes the whole thing an even bigger farce than it already is.
Anyone who trusts anything Palpatine says after seeing ROTS is either on drugs or the most gullible moron in the universe.
BTW, you forgor a few other factors in the Ewok's favor like small target profile and the stormtroopers being handicapped by direct orders from Vader to take prisoners.
Pretty much the only thing that the imperial troops have going for them are the AT-ST's and even they are worthless as they are taken out by the most primitive weapons imaginable.
JUST the AT-ST's? What about the AT-AT? What about the AT-TE or any of the OTHER vehicles seen in the prequels?
A weapon that was extremely massive. The Narn homeworld in Babylon 5 was taken out by an equally primitive weapon (throwing large rocks at the planet). Does this mean they are pathetic. This idiot clealy subscribes to the technology caste myth and doesn't give a damn about REAL scientific principles like momentum or stress analysis.
One "slips" over a few logs (which is a pretty strong argument against combat vehicles on legs),
I wonder how well this guy would do walking on metal rods?
another gets crushed by two falling logs (which puts its hull integrity somewhere between a wooden shack and a volkswagen beetle)
Replace "logs" with "massive tree trunks" and you have a true statement. Add "army hummer" to that list of vehicles too.
and the third one is hijacked because it's piloted by two masterminds who open their hatch in the middle of combat.
To get ewoks off the vehicle who could potentially sabotauge the thing.
I won't go into further details with your assessment as you turn simple plot devices (leia and r2d2 getting hit) into solid evidence for...well for something.
In other words--he blatently ignores two canon events to shore up his little fantasy.
Adrian Laguna wrote:I imagine some of you might be thinking, "This is what left you speechless and unable to reply?" Well yes, I can't think of a way to reply other than reiterate my arguments and end-up looking like an idiot. So the plan is that my next post would go something like this:
"In all honesty I don't know how to reply to that. However the folks over at StarDestroyer.net do..."
Your #1 retort should be "stop ignoring canon events that don't fit into your pre-ordained conclusion".
Main characters vs no-names is NOT an excuse under suspension of disbelief.
BTW - It is only an 'appeal to authority fallacy' if I use an authority's opinion or argument as being superior to that of somebody else merely because of their position. In other words, if I admit that the argument I'm using is from someone that knows more than me, then it's not a fallacy, right?
The appeal to authority is any argument that is based solely on "so-and-so says so, therefore it is"