That's the dumbest fucking thing I've heard all day. I can live indefinitely without prayers or sermons; let's see how you well or how long you live without electricity, running water, improved farming methods, medicine, sound architecture, hygiene, and waste disposal, moron. Even the most religious person in our society happily takes advantage of all that technology and science have given us, yet an atheist needs nothing, absolutely nothing from religion. You can substitute words like a mindless parrot, but the logic does not substitute at all. And yes, I know you're trying to play devil's advocate, but you're doing so in an incredibly stupid way. Even the most rabid fundies I've ever met would not seriously consider giving up all of science and technology.
Yeah, I know, it doesn't actually happen that there exists a fundie in the world who really follows such thoughts to full conclusion. That post was a thought experiment to see just how deep one could get the parallel to run, while remaining purely in the mind of a fundie, since, of course, the original post concerned what goes on in people's minds. Like I said, it breaks down at the point where one realizes that everyone wants to live well and not everyone wants to praise God, hence the inclusivity of science and the exclusivity of religion.
Out of curiosity, how would one play devil's advocate more intelligently?
Faith is saying 'Yes, there is absolutely irrefutable physical proof that God does not exist, but I still choose hope in *whatever* (afterlife, reincarnation, transmigration or what have you)'.
Belief is saying 'I know there is a God because the Good Book told me so. Virgin births are perfectly capable because God would break his own rules to do so' and the like.
Its no joke that the biggest problem with Christianity is Christians. Most Christians have Belief, not Faith.
Echo Station Three T-Eight. We have spotted Imperial walkers
I think its a social thing; most people need group ID to feel right, and faith or belief is a small price to pay for such group affirmation. The 'better than thou' bug is based on social instincts; intelligence in being able to manipulate the objective world as an engineer or scientist is one thing, but to be able to influence or even own the productive potential is what counts socially.
Bush and the amen crowd, for example, may be idiots in a lot of things, but they can manipulate people; they are people-smart, and they are in charge of society. They can only see this as divine providence, and faith and belief allows them to transgress laws of honestly and integrity most people would not countenance.
One analogy is the moral tale of Conan the Barbarian; what is the riddle of steel?
Thulsa Doom learned it was the mastery of those who could weild steel, rather than being able to weild it himself, and Father Set was his idol. Conan barely escaped Doom's spell of belief, and slew him, prefering to remain the master of himself.
Faith and belief are not necessarily constrained to religion; a secular could just as easily harbour fanatical blind spots in patriotism (my nation, right or wrong) or a sports team (X team could win the championship despite the totally off odds).
Some people also need a psychological release valve, and unreasoning faith and belief fits the prescription. For example, a lot of bright people are over-acheivers, and may use the psychological mechanisms of belief and faith it to relieve stress over situations that don't meet expectations, or gain a more comfortable perspective that might actually help solve the problem.
An intelligent person can be religious if he accepts that the faith is irrational, and acts accordingly (i.e. doesn't try to shove it down other people's throats or assume any superiority).
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That's the dumbest fucking thing I've heard all day. I can live indefinitely without prayers or sermons; let's see how you well or how long you live without electricity, running water, improved farming methods, medicine, sound architecture, hygiene, and waste disposal, moron. Even the most religious person in our society happily takes advantage of all that technology and science have given us, yet an atheist needs nothing, absolutely nothing from religion. You can substitute words like a mindless parrot, but the logic does not substitute at all. And yes, I know you're trying to play devil's advocate, but you're doing so in an incredibly stupid way. Even the most rabid fundies I've ever met would not seriously consider giving up all of science and technology.
Yeah, I know, it doesn't actually happen that there exists a fundie in the world who really follows such thoughts to full conclusion. That post was a thought experiment to see just how deep one could get the parallel to run, while remaining purely in the mind of a fundie, since, of course, the original post concerned what goes on in people's minds. Like I said, it breaks down at the point where one realizes that everyone wants to live well and not everyone wants to praise God, hence the inclusivity of science and the exclusivity of religion.
But that's the problem; since no fundie would ever say that, it's just an absurd caricature.
Out of curiosity, how would one play devil's advocate more intelligently?
Say something that a real fundie might actually say. If you're going to use a caricature, you should use it for purposes of humour, not to play "devil's advocate".
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Morilore wrote:
Out of curiosity, how would one play devil's advocate more intelligently?
stating that you're simply playing devil's advocate at the start would help. that way it doesn't make you look like a backpedaling assclown when you simply shout "just kidding! i was playing devil's advocate!!11!!!" after being called on such an idiotic remark.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Darth_Zod wrote:stating that you're simply playing devil's advocate at the start would help. that way it doesn't make you look like a backpedaling assclown when you simply shout "just kidding! i was playing devil's advocate!!11!!!" after being called on such an idiotic remark.
I shouted no such thing.
Darth Wong wrote:And yes, I know you're trying to play devil's advocate
before I made my first reply.
Darth Wong wrote:But that's the problem; since no fundie would ever say that, it's just an absurd caricature.
A real fundie might say something similar, I think, except he/she/it would fail to acknowledge that science actually has created all those good things everyone loves, and instead attempt to bait-and-switch onto "secular humanistic philosophy" and proceed to slander it with connections to Marxism, drug use, "free love," and the breakdown of family values, whilst simultaneously lying about the connections of old-boy Christian values to capitalism, democracy, stable family life and blah blah blah.
Say something that a real fundie might actually say. If you're going to use a caricature, you should use it for purposes of humour, not to play "devil's advocate".
Looking at it empirically, one can see that many of the greatest scientific discoveries were made by theists. Contrary to what many seem to believe, science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive.
arigo wrote:Looking at it empirically, one can see that many of the greatest scientific discoveries were made by theists. Contrary to what many seem to believe, science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive.
Yea, right... Einstein, Tesla, theists... You're so full of shit it comes out of your ears.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
arigo wrote:Looking at it empirically, one can see that many of the greatest scientific discoveries were made by theists. Contrary to what many seem to believe, science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I see you don't quite understand that people like Galieo and Copernicus HAD to be Theist.
But let's not have facts get in the way of absurd theories.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
arigo wrote:Looking at it empirically, one can see that many of the greatest scientific discoveries were made by theists. Contrary to what many seem to believe, science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive.
Yea, right... Einstein, Tesla, theists... You're so full of shit it comes out of your ears.
Einstein was openly religious, though not in the same way as the average theist. Here are some that were: Max planck, Gregor mendel, Michael faraday, Isaac newton. I could list a lot more, but I've made my point. Nice try moron.
arigo wrote:Looking at it empirically, one can see that many of the greatest scientific discoveries were made by theists. Contrary to what many seem to believe, science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive.
Yea, right... Einstein, Tesla, theists... You're so full of shit it comes out of your ears.
Einstein was openly religious, though not in the same way as the average theist. Here are some that were: Max planck, Gregor mendel, Michael faraday, Isaac newton. I could list a lot more, but I've made my point. Nice try moron.
FLAT OUT LIE.
Einstein was a Deist, publically and loudly. You are just another Christian trying to rewrite things in his favor with new wording. Thank you for proving this by falling into the endlessly refuted bullshit we've handled dozens of times before.
Just another kiddie troll with his first philosophy book, it seems. Kid doesn't even know about Parsimony...
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:
Einstein was a Deist, publically and loudly. You are just another Christian trying to rewrite things in his favor with new wording. Thank you for proving this by falling into the endlessly refuted bullshit we've handled dozens of times before.
How many times do I have to say I'm not religious. I'm not fucking religious Einstein has many quotes about his religious feelings about the universe and called it his religion. Look into it.
SirNitram wrote:
Einstein was a Deist, publically and loudly. You are just another Christian trying to rewrite things in his favor with new wording. Thank you for proving this by falling into the endlessly refuted bullshit we've handled dozens of times before.
How many times do I have to say I'm not religious. I'm not fucking religious Einstein has many quotes about his religious feelings about the universe and called it his religion. Look into it.
I have, you lying shithead. Every one confirms his acknowledgement of being a Deist. Your actions speak louder than your assertions.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
The problem is revealed: You're simply ignorant to what a Deist is. Surprise, surprise.
I don't really care if you think I'm religious. Jesus, why would I lie?
Because you are yet another fucking whiner who thinks we hate all theists... You know, where you were screeching about how we're anti-theists? You know? You own words?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:
The problem is revealed: You're simply ignorant to what a Deist is. Surprise, surprise.
And you clearly must be ignorant of what a theist is.
SirNitram wrote:
Because you are yet another fucking whiner who thinks we hate all theists... You know, where you were screeching about how we're anti-theists? You know? You own words?
I guess I'm failing god by lying and all. I must go cleanse myself and pray for forgiveness! The anti-theist wanking going on here is obvious. Anyway, I've been instructed that it's best to ignore you. Buh-bye
SirNitram wrote:
The problem is revealed: You're simply ignorant to what a Deist is. Surprise, surprise.
And you clearly must be ignorant of what a theist is.
You do realize Deists are generally outside this? Obviously you must, because when I pointed out Einstein was a Deist, you screeched about how he was a theist, definately, a theist. Can we expect more semantical bullshit?
SirNitram wrote:
Because you are yet another fucking whiner who thinks we hate all theists... You know, where you were screeching about how we're anti-theists? You know? You own words?
I guess I'm failing god by lying and all. I must go cleanse myself and pray for forgiveness! The anti-theist wanking going on here is obvious. Anyway, I've been instructed that it's best to ignore you. Buh-bye
Oh, no, you've been 'instructed'. By who, your sky fairy, or one of the numerous trolls we've punted?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
arigo wrote:Looking at it empirically, one can see that many of the greatest scientific discoveries were made by theists. Contrary to what many seem to believe, science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive.
You should have maybe kept to your word in Testing and left the board permanently in your little tantrum when we didn't register you quickly enough. Have fun.
"On the infrequent occasions when I have been called upon in a formal place to play the bongo drums, the introducer never seems to find it necessary to mention that I also do theoretical physics." -Richard Feynman
What a jackass. You obviously don't realize that the fact these scientists were theist/deist/penis-suckers means absolutely shit about their scientific contributions. These people could've contributed just as well without their religion, but, being a typical dumbass, you attribute the deeds of a theist/deist/penis-sucker to their religion, and not to the individual.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
wolveraptor wrote:What a jackass. You obviously don't realize that the fact these scientists were theist/deist/penis-suckers means absolutely shit about their scientific contributions. These people could've contributed just as well without their religion, but, being a typical dumbass, you attribute the deeds of a theist/deist/penis-sucker to their religion, and not to the individual.
Calm down there turbo. I never made the implication that they were good scientists because they were religious; I really doubt that is the case. I'm using them to show that science and religion aren't mutually exclusive like many seem to be suggesting.
arigo wrote:I'm using them to show that science and religion aren't mutually exclusive like many seem to be suggesting.
They aren't in that scientists can have religion. But they are in that those scientists, the reputables ones, that is, don't take their religions literally- unlike those folks who say the Earth really was created in six days, etc.
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Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest "Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
And here we go with the "Many great scientists believed in god" argument that religion and science should be able to intermingle.
Who gives a flying fuck which scientist believed in what god? Einstein was flat-out refused to believe quantum mechanics because of his ideas about God's intentions and methods. A few decades later, the entire semiconductor industry is demonstrating that God does indeed "play dice" with the universe on a daily basis. That should be a textbook example of why religion and science don't mix and why they should stay completely separate.
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
Durandal wrote:A few decades later, the entire semiconductor industry is demonstrating that God does indeed "play dice" with the universe on a daily basis.
*snicker*
I just had this funny image of God and St. Peter playing craps....
'Come on sevens! Baby needs a new pair of shoes....'
Echo Station Three T-Eight. We have spotted Imperial walkers
The anti-theist wanking going on here is obvious. Anyway, I've been instructed that it's best to ignore you. Buh-bye
