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Manus Celer Dei wrote:
Don't the novelisations take precedence over the rest of the EU in case of a contradiction?

Precedence, but does not mean you throw it out, unless direct contradiction.

Also another note, an immense amount of prep time and energy has been shown for any Dark Sider to transcend as it were.

For the regular Jedi, a certain technique seems to be needed but it does not look to be anywhere near the ritual that Exar Kun needed, which involved tens if not hundreds of other life forces to bind his soul to the temple on Yavin.

Ghost Rider wrote:For the regular Jedi, a certain technique seems to be needed but it does not look to be anywhere near the ritual that Exar Kun needed, which involved tens if not hundreds of other life forces to bind his soul to the temple on Yavin.

I'm not sure what you're talking about (because I don't have the comic/read the book), but in DE Palpatine seems to do it almost immediately. Then again, by that time he had done it before, so it's possible Palpatine understands how to do it quicker than this Exar Kun chap, who sounds like it was his first time.

Stofsk wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:For the regular Jedi, a certain technique seems to be needed but it does not look to be anywhere near the ritual that Exar Kun needed, which involved tens if not hundreds of other life forces to bind his soul to the temple on Yavin.

I'm not sure what you're talking about (because I don't have the comic/read the book), but in DE Palpatine seems to do it almost immediately. Then again, by that time he had done it before, so it's possible Palpatine understands how to do it quicker than this Exar Kun chap, who sounds like it was his first time.

But he's merely transferring his energy into a body rather then existing without the body.

Which another interesting thing....Ben showed he had this ability as well.

Darksider wrote:Except in Dark Empire, and Dark Empie II. Oh, and Empire's End

But he does eventually die a "final" death, never truely becoming a force spirit like Obi or Yoda.

His "Immortality" only lasted as long as his clone bodies

I meant that the permanent, final death of the last Sith Lords at the end of RotJ was Lucas' intention. It makes the movies that much more powerful.

Note that I'm not an EU hater.. I read and like many post-RotJ novels and comics (except up to the Yuuzhan Vong bit, I didn't really like that) with great degree of enjoyment. My approach might not be really explainable.. when I watch the movies, I disregard the entire EU, but I still enjoy reading the EU stories.
If you don't understand what I mean, I understand

Stravo wrote:Really, so Mr. EU MUST be intergrated how do we deal with Exar Kun and the other Sith ghosts we see littered throughout your EU?

Are you trying to do an impression of a total retard?

Because Sith spirits DON'T last forever. They have to absorb the life energy of normal beings to do it, and they're trapped inside fucking tombs. Notice Naga Sadow entombed his spirit at his ship on Yavin IV, but after Freedon Nadd recieved training from him as a Sith Lord, his spirit was dissipated. They can lie dormant indefinitely, but they're limited in area. They are essentially living on borrowed-time from the people they killed upon death. Once they "wake up" and begin training, it appears that borrowed time quickly expires. Contrast this with Jedi examples like Qui-Gon, or Ulic Qel-Droma, or Obi-Wan. They can go any where at any time, and apart from Obi-Wan in Heir to the Empire, they appear to be completely immortal.

You didn't think I already thought of this?

Qui-Gon says dark side immortality is not possible; therefore Sidious is probably full of shit, because when it comes down to choosing between Qui-Gon lying to Yoda and Sidious lying to Anakin, I think the choice is obvious. And if Qui-Gon's right, the lower EU must bend to fit it. As I've shown, since Sith spirits already had observed longevity problems when they wake up and start doing stuff - i.e., Naga Sadow's disappearance problem.

Ghost Rider wrote:Another bit of note that in Splinter of the Mind's eye, Obi Wan was able to take over Luke and allow him to defeat Darth Vader. Giving a demonstratably greater power then what was demonstarted of any Sith Lord, barring Palpatine who when took over another body, made it go instantly insane.

Palpatine's clones were not insane. Palpatine in ROTJ is a clone body. And the original DE one was hardly irrational or unstable.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Another bit of note that in Splinter of the Mind's eye, Obi Wan was able to take over Luke and allow him to defeat Darth Vader. Giving a demonstratably greater power then what was demonstarted of any Sith Lord, barring Palpatine who when took over another body, made it go instantly insane.

Palpatine's clones were not insane. Palpatine in ROTJ is a clone body. And the original DE one was hardly irrational or unstable.

Then explain his Hand he took over that went kooky. Ben entered another being body and it left no lasting scars of sorts, while the Emperor does the same thing and that person kills everyone aboard that vessel.

His clones have no mind, thus not the analogy I was using.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Another bit of note that in Splinter of the Mind's eye, Obi Wan was able to take over Luke and allow him to defeat Darth Vader. Giving a demonstratably greater power then what was demonstarted of any Sith Lord, barring Palpatine who when took over another body, made it go instantly insane.

Palpatine's clones were not insane. Palpatine in ROTJ is a clone body. And the original DE one was hardly irrational or unstable.

Then explain his Hand he took over that went kooky. Ben entered another being body and it left no lasting scars of sorts, while the Emperor does the same thing and that person kills everyone aboard that vessel.

His clones have no mind, thus not the analogy I was using.

Oh. Yeah. Jeng Droga was totally nuts.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:Really, so Mr. EU MUST be intergrated how do we deal with Exar Kun and the other Sith ghosts we see littered throughout your EU?

Because Sith spirits DON'T last forever. They have to absorb the life energy of normal beings to do it, and they're trapped inside fucking tombs. SNIP. Contrast this with Jedi examples like Qui-Gon, or Ulic Qel-Droma, or Obi-Wan. They can go any where at any time, and apart from Obi-Wan in Heir to the Empire, they appear to be completely immortal.

And Obi Wan is gone, Qui Gon never seen, Yoda never appears after ROTJ (AFAIK) Vader appears ONCE to Leia to say goodbye and then is gone too so how pray tell does this immortality differentiate from the immortality of these 'borrowed time' Sith ghosts?

Stravo wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:Really, so Mr. EU MUST be intergrated how do we deal with Exar Kun and the other Sith ghosts we see littered throughout your EU?

Because Sith spirits DON'T last forever. They have to absorb the life energy of normal beings to do it, and they're trapped inside fucking tombs. SNIP. Contrast this with Jedi examples like Qui-Gon, or Ulic Qel-Droma, or Obi-Wan. They can go any where at any time, and apart from Obi-Wan in Heir to the Empire, they appear to be completely immortal.

And Obi Wan is gone, Qui Gon never seen, Yoda never appears after ROTJ (AFAIK) Vader appears ONCE to Leia to say goodbye and then is gone too so how pray tell does this immortality differentiate from the immortality of these 'borrowed time' Sith ghosts?

According to the bit with Yoda at the end of the RotS novel, Qui-Gon had talked with Yoda quite a lot between TPM and RotS. And he trained Yoda and Obi-Wan between RotS and ANH. So light-side immortality lets you bob around being an immortal ghost, without having to do the whole dark side "absorb life" stuff.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:Really, so Mr. EU MUST be intergrated how do we deal with Exar Kun and the other Sith ghosts we see littered throughout your EU?

Are you trying to do an impression of a total retard?

Because Sith spirits DON'T last forever. They have to absorb the life energy of normal beings to do it, and they're trapped inside fucking tombs. Notice Naga Sadow entombed his spirit at his ship on Yavin IV, but after Freedon Nadd recieved training from him as a Sith Lord, his spirit was dissipated. They can lie dormant indefinitely, but they're limited in area. They are essentially living on borrowed-time from the people they killed upon death. Once they "wake up" and begin training, it appears that borrowed time quickly expires. Contrast this with Jedi examples like Qui-Gon, or Ulic Qel-Droma, or Obi-Wan. They can go any where at any time, and apart from Obi-Wan in Heir to the Empire, they appear to be completely immortal.

You didn't think I already thought of this?

Qui-Gon says dark side immortality is not possible; therefore Sidious is probably full of shit, because when it comes down to choosing between Qui-Gon lying to Yoda and Sidious lying to Anakin, I think the choice is obvious. And if Qui-Gon's right, the lower EU must bend to fit it. As I've shown, since Sith spirits already had observed longevity problems when they wake up and start doing stuff - i.e., Naga Sadow's disappearance problem.

But Qui-Gon's statement contradicts Dark Empire since "pure energy" Palpatine who can enter cloned bodies, even after a severe defeat and a long time lapse (ROTJ and destruction by Force storm on first Eclipse), is even more immortal than EU Force ghosts since he gets to interact with the physical world completely and indefinitely. So either Qui-Gon is wrong or Dark Empire is wrong.

Maybe they're still there, but they'd rather hang around in women's changing rooms in shopping malls galaxy-wide rather than hanging around Luke?
They just tell him they're dissipating because they don't want to hurt his feelings by blowing him off.

Stravo wrote:And Obi Wan is gone, Qui Gon never seen, Yoda never appears after ROTJ (AFAIK) Vader appears ONCE to Leia to say goodbye and then is gone too so how pray tell does this immortality differentiate from the immortality of these 'borrowed time' Sith ghosts?

Funnily enough me and Kaz were kicking the same topic around about a week ago. Let me help, lets start with Qui-Gon.

Qui-Gon didn't have enough time to discover (or rediscover) the Jedi immortality trick the first time around; that's why he isn't seen. But he had discovered enough of it to still be heard, and even after death was able to discover the rest of it to teach Yoda and Obi-Wan how to do the whole thing.

Vader/Anakin probably got a free ride due to him being the Chosen One and all that such that as long as he still wasn't 'dark' at the time of his death the Force automatically grants him immortality due to him basically being the Force's avatar.

Now as to Obi-Wan and Yoda, I sincerely believe that Obi-Wan flat out lied to Luke in HttE. Consider; Luke didn't understand the process that Obi-Wan and Yoda (and his father) went through at this point (and even up to the NJO he still hasn't learned it, more on that latter). He suspected that a Jedi would 'anchor' himself in death to another near by, when considering why C'boath was insane (before he found out that C'boath was a clone) in DFR.

In the NJO books, Corran talks about his duel with the two Vong and muses about 'how this is must feel like when becoming one with the Force' when the other Jedi was TK carrying his passed out body (what a whimp). But if Luke doesn't know that there is a specific thing you must do in order to become 'one with the Force' (like Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin) it is fucking high and unlikely that a chump like Corran knows. In fact in the NJO, the Jedi of that era think that it is an automatic pass to become a 'Force ghost' if you're a Jedi. We now know that this is patently wrong.

Now as to the question of whether or not Obi-Wan was lying (as is my assertation) or hadn't actually achieved the 'true immortality' as Kaz proposed (absurd, since Obi-Wan is the Mack-Daddy of Star Wars), Kaz was arguing that Obi-Wan hadn't achieved it correctly due to the fact that he hadn't learned to get by with the 'no attachment' rule of the immortality and in essense used up all of his 'immortality credits' (Kaz I hope I'm doing this right).

But I disagreed. I believe that given the givens, what Yoda and Obi-Wan learned at the end of the RotS - that the Jedi had become dogmatic and stagnated over the years, I think they just realised that they should help Luke out until Vader and his Emperor were taken care off, and then leave him alone to his own devices. After all, what's more stagnated than three or four immortal Jedi Masters appearing every now and then telling the current crop of Jedi everything they're doing wrong, and correcting them. It would just be repeating the same mistakes.

The Jedi immortality is potent - now here is my theory - as not only can they influence the physical world if they so desired, but they can now influence the Force itself, directly - which jives with what Yoda said to Qui-Gon. Infact I believe that they were instrumental in thwarting the Dark Side shroud when Luke came about, in giving Sidious funky and psychodelic visions rather than the truth - all with him being none the wiser. What's even better is that they are now immune from counter attack by a Darksider.

Which is why I believe that we'll never see another Sidious or another Anakin again.

In fact, I expect Luke to hear from Obi-Wan or Yoda again on more time, when they give him their final lesson; immortality. Very, very late in his life.

Eframepilot wrote:But Qui-Gon's statement contradicts Dark Empire since "pure energy" Palpatine who can enter cloned bodies, even after a severe defeat and a long time lapse (ROTJ and destruction by Force storm on first Eclipse), is even more immortal than EU Force ghosts since he gets to interact with the physical world completely and indefinitely. So either Qui-Gon is wrong or Dark Empire is wrong.

On that point, perhaps. Personally I believe it contradicts the DESB more than DE itself. Such that DE stands, but the SB's jerking off on the matter itself should be viewed as suspect. As Primus pointed out, Sidious learned the transfer life power from a Jedi Master he tortured.