"The entire Starfleet in pitched battle couldn't stop u

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-09 12:28pm

Yes but in that comic Palpatine knew of the plot thanks to his precog abilities.

note the previous post:

Remember Tarkin doesnt believe in that hoky precognition nonsense

I didnt say that it would work.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-06-09 03:07pm

This is why I reject the idea tha the Death Star was eventually going to become a common place design.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-06-09 08:19pm

Okay, about the stormtroopers, this goes back to Motti's exact wording when answering Tarkin's objection concerning Lord Vader:

"The personnel on this station owe their loyalty to you. Lord Vader, for all his superstitious trickery, can be dealt with."

He evidently thought that they wouldn't have loyalty problems with the stormies, though he could very well have been wrong.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-06-09 09:02pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Okay, about the stormtroopers, this goes back to Motti's exact wording when answering Tarkin's objection concerning Lord Vader:

"The personnel on this station owe their loyalty to you. Lord Vader, for all his superstitious trickery, can be dealt with."

He evidently thought that they wouldn't have loyalty problems with the stormies, though he could very well have been wrong.

Stormies weren't even close to the total number of personnel on the station. There would have been millions of crewman, Naval Guards, pilots and other Naval personnel, plus the thousands of representatives of other branches like the Army and Intelligence.

Motti seems to imply that everyone, not just the indoctrinated clones will side with Tarkin against Vader and, by extension, the Emperor.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-06-09 10:20pm

The Original Nex wrote:Stormies weren't even close to the total number of personnel on the station. There would have been millions of crewman, Naval Guards, pilots and other Naval personnel, plus the thousands of representatives of other branches like the Army and Intelligence.

Motti seems to imply that everyone, not just the indoctrinated clones will side with Tarkin against Vader and, by extension, the Emperor.

Depending on how the operational command chain is really set up, it could be possible. If almost everyone goes through Tarkin and his triumvirate, he has every chance of really being able to do so.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-06-10 01:22am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: As I understand the concept in TTT was free access. As of the Star Destroyers, you still couldn't take full control of the ship, though you could look at records freely. The WD-style MCPs seem unique that one can remote control the ship all the way to its death.

I don't think so. Mara commented to herself in that sequence that the backdoor system was VERY SPECIFICLY there so the Emepror could always get into the system, that no-one could EVER lock him out. At a guess, it gave root status to the user. Mara simply called up the flightplan of the ship and the prisoner records for Karade, its all she had time to do. She was also able, when they got back on, access ships systems and even would have been able to overwrite the ships security systems while in a full scale intruder alert lockdown.

At least that was for Emperor's Hands. Perhaps there is another backcode somewhere Mara doesn't know that would actually allow her to take full command of the Chimaera and vent Thrawn's bridge and quarters to space.

I don't see why she couldn't have...but the problem was that she was hardly in a position or location to try that kind of stunt. Her goal was to get Karade back out, which is hardly something she can do when she is known to be aboard and expected at a location in a minuite or two.

The stormtroopers have their loyalty to the Empire, true. But the DS stormies they seem to be under the operational control of Tarkin, especially if Vader had an "accident". Which means unless they manage to achieve a secret link direct to the Emperor or High Command, Tarkin would find it relatively easy to compartmentalize information and fool them into passivity.

Yes....

"Hey we're sitting in orbit above Courscant and just blew the crap out of half the sector fleet, don't worry, everything is cool".

All you have to do is get to a hanger bay and turn on the radio in a TIE fighter and ask Courscant command WTF is going on. And when THAT happens, the Stormies WILL depose Tarkin in a short space of time. According to Shield of Lies, the Death Star had a complement of 25,800 Stormtroopers. Tarkin could not have possibly handpicked the entire crew or even the entire officer core and frankly there is no way Palpitine would have LET him choose his own staff to THAT level. It also had 27, 048 officers and over a million crew/support staff.

Assuming the crew just stay out of the way, then it leaves almost a 1:1 ratio of Stormies to officers. Crack assault troops will salughter desk jockies. And I find it impossible to belive that Palpitine did NOT assign a Stormtrooper legion fanaticly loyal to him (and Vader for that matter) by his own orders.

And I have no dobut there are any number of ISB and COMPNOR moles with their own hyperwave trancivers planted all over the Death Star who are loyal to the Emperor.

The Death Star is just TOO much of a risk for Palpitine to let out of his sight without putting multiple levels of security in place.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-06-10 01:26am

25,000 Stormtroopers? WTF? That's only 9000 more than on a freaking Acclamator. Fucking dimensionally challenged hacks.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-10 01:29am

Vympel wrote:25,000 Stormtroopers? WTF? That's only 9000 more than on a freaking Acclamator. Fucking dimensionally challenged hacks.

The Acclamator is a troop transport. The Death Star is a battle station whose only need for stormtroopers is security in sensitve areas and possible boarding actions on captured craft. There's a big difference.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-06-10 01:38am

Quote:

The stormtroopers have their loyalty to the Empire, true. But the DS stormies they seem to be under the operational control of Tarkin, especially if Vader had an "accident". Which means unless they manage to achieve a secret link direct to the Emperor or High Command, Tarkin would find it relatively easy to compartmentalize information and fool them into passivity.

Yes....
"Hey we're sitting in orbit above Courscant and just blew the crap out of half the sector fleet, don't worry, everything is cool".

It doesnt seem to me to be too hard to tell the stormies that:
"Rebels have captured the Imperial palace,
the Emperor has escaped and orders us to vaporize the rebels before they attempt to gain control through the backdoor systems, lieutenant secure all systems".

Afterwards he would tell them that the Emperor had in fact been executed by traitors from his inner circle who must now be liquidated

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-06-10 01:44am

Pure Sabacc wrote: The Acclamator is a troop transport. The Death Star is a battle station whose only need for stormtroopers is security in sensitve areas and possible boarding actions on captured craft. There's a big difference.

No, it's fucking stupid. You are talking a *160km diameter SPHERE* here. The surface area laone means that 25,000 Stormtroopers (and whatever number of Imperial Starfleet black-helmet troops there were, woudln't make much difference since the total crew of 1,000,000 is incredibly stupid and makes no sense either) couldn't provide security on such a structure for shit, never mind that the Death Star has many, many decks.

As for possible boarding of captured craft, you do realize that this interpretaiton means that the Death Star doens't have enough Stormtroopers to outnumber the total crew of a mere Star Destroyer?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-10 01:54am

No, it's fucking stupid. You are talking a *160km diameter SPHERE* here. The surface area laone means that 25,000 Stormtroopers (and whatever number of Imperial Starfleet black-helmet troops there were, woudln't make much difference since the total crew of 1,000,000 is incredibly stupid and makes no sense either) couldn't provide security on such a structure for shit, never mind that the Death Star has many, many decks.

How much of the DS is actually inhabited and crewed? Only its outermost layer, and even much of that is mostly automated or empty space. Most of the interior is given over to power systems, fuel storage, the superlaser, and the reactor core. Also consider that there are other armed soldiers on the station besides stormies, who would serve to augement the security force.

As for the capital ship boarding bit, the Death Star is as terror weapon, a platform for the superlaser, and an imposing image, clearly visible even in orbit. It is unlikely the DS is going to be sent alone on missions were it is required to capture capital ships. If that is necissary, that's what support fleets are for.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-06-10 02:10am

Pure Sabacc wrote: How much of the DS is actually inhabited and crewed? Only its outermost layer, and even much of that is mostly automated or empty space. Most of the interior is given over to power systems, fuel storage, the superlaser, and the reactor core. Also consider that there are other armed soldiers on the station besides stormies, who would serve to augement the security force.

That it's outer layer is the only one inhabited and crewed is a mere assertion. Look at the OT:ICS. It has many decks before the reactor/ superlaser etc start taking up space. It has no huge fuel tanks. The other armed soldiers on the station, as I said, couldn't provide effective security, because the absolute population figure is still *too low*- it necessitates that vast tracts of the surface, never mind the lower decks, would be totally uninhabited. You could walk through them for days without ever bumping into anybody.

As for the capital ship boarding bit, the Death Star is as terror weapon, a platform for the superlaser, and an imposing image, clearly visible even in orbit. It is unlikely the DS is going to be sent alone on missions were it is required to capture capital ships. If that is necissary, that's what support fleets are for.

The notion that the Death Star needs a support fleet to assist in capturing a single ISD crewed ship is so utterly absurd it beggars the imagination. The Death Star isn't just a platform for the superlaser, it is dotted with weapons emplacements, hangars, tractor beams, and is heavily shielded. In most instances it wouldn't even need a support fleet. It's a fully functional battlestation, not this ridiculous, sparsely inhabited shell that these idiotic EU sources proposed without a shred of critical thought.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-06-10 02:14am

Chris OFarrell wrote:I don't see why she couldn't have...but the problem was that she was hardly in a position or location to try that kind of stunt. Her goal was to get Karade back out, which is hardly something she can do when she is known to be aboard and expected at a location in a minuite or two.

Because access to files does not equal the ability to override the primary control system? They could access the system. Nobody said they can control gunnery or any other important section.

With such primary access, it is hard to see how she won't click "Atmospheric Controls-->Main Bridge-->Alter Atmospheric Pressure-->0" or cause some other mayhem.

Yes....

"Hey we're sitting in orbit above Courscant and just blew the crap out of half the sector fleet, don't worry, everything is cool".

I don't exactly see the stormtroopers having access to many windows to see that happening. Besides, Tarkin could say that the local Imperial Moff was acting up, and that's what they are seeing getting blown up. Considering Goroth, this story should be familiar.

All you have to do is get to a hanger bay and turn on the radio in a TIE fighter and ask Courscant command WTF is going on.

The TIE Fighters on alert status are launched. And how would some junior stormie know the correct frequency to use, or the authentications to provide so he doesn't get bumped off the net without a word?

It also had 27, 048 officers and over a million crew/support staff.

Many of which are Tarkin's handpicked DS Trooper squads, his insurance policy for if the stormies ever figure out what is really happening.

Never mind that these numbers are too low anyway - we'd assume they scale up in proportion.

And I have no dobut there are any number of ISB and COMPNOR moles with their own hyperwave trancivers planted all over the Death Star who are loyal to the Emperor.

The ISB people would have to find out something is going wrong first. Then they would have to make contact with those with the transceivers. Then they had better hope the Shields Aren't Up to block the signal's transmission.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-06-10 02:16am

I never said that the DS was not covered in a mind-boggling array of weaponry (which it is), just that its crew and structural layout is not designed around capturing capital ships.

*Upon reviewing OT ICS*

I guess it is possible that the crewed portions go further in then I originally suspected. If that is true, then yes, the crew numbers are far too small. Stover's million man clone army all over again.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-06-10 02:27am

Rogue 9 wrote:"The personnel on this station owe their loyalty to you. Lord Vader, for all his superstitious trickery, can be dealt with."

He evidently thought that they wouldn't have loyalty problems with the stormies, though he could very well have been wrong.

These are two key misconceptions that Motti may have had that led to his belief that the battle station could be used to wrest control from Palpatine: believing that Vader's powers were mere superstition, and being unaware of the degree of the clones' loyalty to the Imperial throne. There must've been at least 2.5 zillion additional countermeasures to prevent such a thing from happening.

Come, now. Darth Sidious. The Death Star. Darth Sidious. The Death Star! Do you think the former would allow even the remotest possibility of the latter being used against him?

As for the whole "empty shell with skeleton crew" thing, the Death Star is a fully functional battle station, not simply a vehicle for transporting the superlaser to its target, or even a vehicle with some defensive capabilities. The idea that it has a crew comparable with a single capital ship is downright ridiculous.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-06-10 02:50am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Chris OFarrell wrote:I don't see why she couldn't have...but the problem was that she was hardly in a position or location to try that kind of stunt. Her goal was to get Karade back out, which is hardly something she can do when she is known to be aboard and expected at a location in a minuite or two.
Because access to files does not equal the ability to override the primary control system? They could access the system. Nobody said they can control gunnery or any other important section.

You have failed to convince me. Palpitine go's to all the effort of having a computer backdoor system installed into every ISD...so can he look at records?

The very specific POINT was that it was built in there so no-one could EVER lock him out from the ships computer systems. Not so he could browse the MP3 collection of the ships commanding officer....

And I again I point out that Mara was going to quite easily overide the ships computer security systems during a full blown security lockdown. If she can do this, I don't see why we shouldn't assume she wouldn't have access to ANY primary system the main computer controls.

With such primary access, it is hard to see how she won't click "Atmospheric Controls-->Main Bridge-->Alter Atmospheric Pressure-->0" or cause some other mayhem.

....because her goal at that point was simply to figure out where the Chimeria was HEADING, then she could get Luke and rescue karade when it arrived. She was alone. Unarmed, on the hanger deck of an ISD in an unsecure room with a squad of troopers about to start looking for her (and did find her in a minuite or so), this is not conductive to start explosive decompressions all over the damn ship! She is outnumbered 37,000 - 1 here. Suicide is not high on her list of priorities.

And beyond that, Thrawn wasn't on the main bridge at this point.

Yes....

"Hey we're sitting in orbit above Courscant and just blew the crap out of half the sector fleet, don't worry, everything is cool".

I don't exactly see the stormtroopers having access to many windows to see that happening.

[/quote]

Why the heck not? We see they patrol the outer sections of the battle station, its going to be noticed...

Besides, Tarkin could say that the local Imperial Moff was acting up, and that's what they are seeing getting blown up. Considering Goroth, this story should be familiar.

Its not THAT commen and bringing back the Death Star to Courscant is hardly a response to be expected. The second you start issuing orders to fire on other Imperial ships with the Death Star in the equation (and Tarkin would have had to have killed Vader by now, and they WILL know) your going to have a revolt on your hands.

All you have to do is get to a hanger bay and turn on the radio in a TIE fighter and ask Courscant command WTF is going on.
The TIE Fighters on alert status are launched. And how would some junior stormie know the correct frequency to use, or the authentications to provide so he doesn't get bumped off the net without a word?

Who said anything about a junior stormie? And now the TIE pilots are all in on the plot to take over the Empire? This is a little reaching here. And all they have to do is contact the local Stormtrooper garrasion. I'm sure Courscant has a communications network more then able to connect the 'call'. Hell, I'd expect the Emperor himself to send a message on the Stormtrooper frequency ala Order 66 saying 'Kill Tarkin'.

Many of which are Tarkin's handpicked DS Trooper squads, his insurance policy for if the stormies ever figure out what is really happening.

Numbers? I can see a platoon or company sized unit, but I think Palpitine would have gotten a LITTLE interested if Tarkin had tried to put his own private army onto the Death Star. I simply can't see more then a glorified bodyguard force being allowed with him.

Never mind that these numbers are too low anyway - we'd assume they scale up in proportion.

Like it or love it Kaz, they are EU, they stand unless directly contradicted.

And I have no dobut there are any number of ISB and COMPNOR moles with their own hyperwave trancivers planted all over the Death Star who are loyal to the Emperor.

The ISB people would have to find out something is going wrong first.

[/quote]

And any halfway competent network of agents on board would KNOW what was going on very fast. If Vader is killed and Tarkin sets a course for Courscant, at the LEAST they would check in and set alarm bells ringing everywehere.

Then they would have to make contact with those with the transceivers. Then they had better hope the Shields Aren't Up to block the signal's transmission.

Short range the shields won't matter. Long range, if the Death Star raises its shields for no reason whatsoever its probably going to set off alarm bells even then. COMPNOR and ISB people are known for being paranoid.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-06-10 03:11am

Was this scene in ANH before or after Vader strangled that Motti fool? He should've broken that moron's neck. You don't mouth off to a Dark Lord of the Sith about how he has a "sad devotion" to an ancient religion, refer to "conjuring up" the stolen data tapes, calling him a "sorceror" and thinking he's trying to "frighten" them.

What a silly twat that guy was. The other guy, Tagge (IIRC?)- is my second favorite Imperial officer after General Veers. Veers wins for sheer military class, Tagge for cool lines that convey being cautious, unassuming, intelligent, and reasonable.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-06-10 04:01am

Vympel wrote:Was this scene in ANH before or after Vader strangled that Motti fool? He should've broken that moron's neck. You don't mouth off to a Dark Lord of the Sith about how he has a "sad devotion" to an ancient religion, refer to "conjuring up" the stolen data tapes, calling him a "sorceror" and thinking he's trying to "frighten" them.

When you put it that way, yeah.. Darth Vader should've Force-gibbed him on the spot.
Sidious must specifically have asked Vader to listen to Tarkin, but still, if I were a Sith Lord in that position, I would've crushed the fool.

I'm interested to know whether the "letz taek over!" line was before or after the Force choke scene. If it was after, Motti could've just been talking out his ass because he was smarting from the humiliation.. but clearly Tarkin knew better.

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2005-06-10 06:47am

It's also hard to belive that a person such as palpatine would comission a weapon like the death star without ensuring it had some sort of fail safe mechanism or even a self-destruct system that only he knew about and commanded.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-06-10 07:56am

Chris OFarrell wrote:You have failed to convince me. Palpitine go's to all the effort of having a computer backdoor system installed into every ISD...so can he look at records? The very specific POINT was that it was built in there so no-one could EVER lock him out from the ships computer systems. Not so he could browse the MP3 collection of the ships commanding officer....

From information, he can access a lot, such as combat records, or where everyone is. Intelligence is important. But leaving such backdoors is already fundamentally unsafe (as a pro-Trek person trying to distract from poor Fed security would point out, there are limits to the likely complexity of such a backdoor code). There is no reason to assume such stupid backdoors extend any further than demonstrated. There is no reason to assume all the critical systems are even attached to the computer with no override.

The MCP is specially added because of the overly automated and powerful nature of the World Devastators, which does allow full control of the ship. If it is something in every Star Destroyer, it wouldn't be worthy of special mention, would it?

And I again I point out that Mara was going to quite easily overide the ships computer security systems during a full blown security lockdown. If she can do this, I don't see why we shouldn't assume she wouldn't have access to ANY primary system the main computer controls.

There is a difference between managing to get some records during a security lockdown and a full blown control of the ship. R2D2 can get records and even stop a garbage compactor aboard the DS, but nobody assumed it equated he could command the DS to self-destruct or even fire its turbolasers.

...because her goal at that point was simply to figure out where the Chimeria was HEADING, then she could get Luke and rescue karade when it arrived. She was alone.

Yes, and with full control to ships system, she can cause so much mayhem that she can destroy the ship outright.

this is not conductive to start explosive decompressions all over the damn ship! She is outnumbered 37,000 - 1 here. Suicide is not high on her list of priorities.

This is the best time to cause a little mayhem. That would distract the local crews and allow her more time. And there will be no connecting her to those accidents. Even if Thrawn thought it up, he can't tell anyone if he's cut off by a communications blackout...

Why the heck not? We see they patrol the outer sections of the battle station, its going to be noticed...

But it won't be all at once. The naval battle will be short. They would have to be at the right place and see enough of the battle to actually have suspicions, then get them confirmed... then the stormtrooper commander starts to do something. If they take hasty action, they risk getting shot up piecemeal inside the vastness of the ship.

Its not THAT common and bringing back the Death Star to Courscant is hardly a response to be expected. The second you start issuing orders to fire on other Imperial ships with the Death Star in the equation (and Tarkin would have had to have killed Vader by now, and they WILL know) your going to have a revolt on your hands.

I don't think so. It is very easy to lie about such things. IIRC, in fact, that Trachta in charge of Coruscant at the time isn't awfully loyal either.

Who said anything about a junior stormie?

With your stupid window idea, the first person that even sees something is out of wack will likely be a junior stormie. He can report it up the chain, but I doubt that the commander, soothed by Tarkin, will get too suspicious.

And now the TIE pilots are all in on the plot to take over the Empire? This is a little reaching here.

Troops are commanded from the top. With a few, judiciously placed lies, most of the crew can be deceived. They don't have to be on it. They just have to be told the correct things - like the idea that those outside are traitors.

And all they have to do is contact the local Stormtrooper garrasion.

Those are operationally subordinate to the local Sector Moff. If the local Moff is rebelling, you would call them to check?

Numbers? I can see a platoon or company sized unit, but I think Palpitine would have gotten a LITTLE interested if Tarkin had tried to put his own private army onto the Death Star. I simply can't see more then a glorified bodyguard force being allowed with him.

Tarkin is telling him nice stuff about the need for "the more powerful the weapon on the inside, the more powerful punch it can deliver outside". These guys are trained as the Death Star is built, with Special Forces and Independent training (giving them an initiative advantage).

If 'attributes' represent the base talent of the soldier, a stormie is all 2D. A Death Star Trooper is DEX3D+1 / KNO2D+1 / MECH2D+2 / PER4D / STR3D+2 / TEC2D+2. The upshot is that the Death Star trooper is picked from superior human material and trained better than a stormie.

At full alert, a full sixth of the patrols are Death Star Troopers (as compared to 1/2 of stormtroopers). That does not count those barricading doors. So one can surmise they make up a good portion of the total patrolling forces, though probably not as many as storrmies. With surprise on their side, they have every chance of winning out a hard confrontation.

To that there are also the Army troops, also subordinate to Tarkin through Tagge. I doubt those 25000 stormtroopers would last against the combined forces of the DS Troopers and the Army.

Like it or love it Kaz, they are EU, they stand unless directly contradicted.

The fact we can actually see patrols on the DS pretty much contradicts them.

And any halfway competent network of agents on board would KNOW what was going on very fast. If Vader is killed and Tarkin sets a course for Courscant, at the LEAST they would check in and set alarm bells ringing everywehere.

They would have to find out he's heading to Coruscant first. You do realize hyperspace is this blue swirl. It is hard to tell where you are headed.

Short range the shields won't matter. Long range, if the Death Star raises its shields for no reason whatsoever its probably going to set off alarm bells even then. COMPNOR and ISB people are known for being paranoid.

They are going to hear that the Sector Moff had gone rebel. By the time they reach Coruscant and they can use their short range comm (assuming their little comm makes it past all the layers of steel from the inside of the ship), it is too late.

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2005-06-10 11:28pm

Was it Motti who talks about the Rebel Alliance being a danger for the "Starfleet" and that their "fighters and pilots are better"?

applejack · Post by **applejack** » 2005-06-10 11:36pm

AniThyng wrote:Was it Motti who talks about the Rebel Alliance being a danger for the "Starfleet" and that their "fighters and pilots are better"?

Nah. It was Tagge. Motti's the arrogant one. Well, not THE arrogant one, but, you know what I mean.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-10 11:39pm

You still have failed to mention why Palpatine's safeguards on the DS (mechanical) would fail to work. Maybe that is why the Thermal Exhaust Port existed. It was Palpy's way of making sure he could get rid of a rogue DS. And Palpatine could just force choke the entire DS command staff.

At least one of the commanding officers is going to be loyal to Palpatine and warn the Emperor of the plan.

applejack · Post by **applejack** » 2005-06-10 11:42pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:You still have failed to mention why Palpatine's safeguards on the DS (mechanical) would fail to work. Maybe that is why the Thermal Exhaust Port existed. It was Palpy's way of making sure he could get rid of a rogue DS. And Palpatine could just force choke the entire DS command staff.

At least one of the commanding officers is going to be loyal to Palpatine and warn the Emperor of the plan.

Well, about the exhaust thing. They didn't reinstitute it on the second DS, so that's probably not what it was there for.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-06-10 11:46pm

On the DS II, Palpatine was going to be there personally with Vader. And maybe it just didn't work out so well and Palpy decided the costs outweighed the benefits.