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I think the number one candidate is Luke's [sigh] Obi-Wan-possessed duel against Vader depicted in the Essential Chronology-ified account of the story in Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

Save of course that you are attributing a power to Anakin (now weakened and never as powerful as he could have been) that he has never had before or since and using a simple cinematic use of juxtaposition as evidence for this phantom ability. Hell who needs to find the secret to immortality when all you have to do is siphon life off of people right?

Stravo wrote:Save of course that you are attributing a power to Anakin (now weakened and never as powerful as he could have been) that he has never had before or since and using a simple cinematic use of juxtaposition as evidence for this phantom ability.

Hence why he was doing it subconsciously.

Incidentally, KOTOR games do show an ability known as 'drain life' which works by killing people to power yourself. Kreia does this to the surviving members of the Jedi Council to save the Exile, and it also happens to be a force power your character can learn in both games.

Hell who needs to find the secret to immortality when all you have to do is siphon life off of people right?

That is more or less what the Emperor does or threatens to do in Dark Empire. The Emperor can transfer his life into a host body such as his clones, and was threatening to do it to Leia's unborn son, Anakin, when he came of age. That requires an ability to siphon off the life from another for you to use.

The Force binds all living things together and Anakin and Padme were closely connected. It isn't that far fetched.

Joe wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Vader's injuries: Vader's cybernetic cervical vertibrae were implanted at some unknown time after his injuries in Revenge of the Sith.

Is there something in RoTS to suggest that they couldn't have been implanted then?

That he's not apparently crippled after his duel. It's possible that like his burnt lungs he got around it but it seems dudious given how badly weakened he was. The descriptions from the orginal novels suggest he survived simply by will, the dark side, and luck.

Plus there doesn't seem any particular reason he would have acquired that spinal injury just then. Up until he Obi-wan made him a quadraplegic he was moving and fighting normally and certainly seems to have no impairment at all.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I think the number one candidate is Luke's [sigh] Obi-Wan-possessed duel against Vader depicted in the Essential Chronology-ified account of the story in Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

Huzzah! Some one actually remembers one of my contributions to Curtis's site.

Stravo, OK, since you seem to be sure that she somehow "willed" herself to death, perhaps you can explain how exactly you can biologically "will" yourself to death in such a short period of time and develop a model for how exactly this mechanism works. Padme may not have been the strongest woman in the world, but the evidence that she would actually kill herself after becoming a mother does not really hold up in light of what we know of her character.

Seriously, as Pinto said in the other thread, how is it possible to "will" yourself to death when you're lying on a bed doing absolutely nothing of harm to yourself?

Joe wrote:Stravo, OK, since you seem to be sure that she somehow "willed" herself to death, perhaps you can explain how exactly you can biologically "will" yourself to death in such a short period of time and develop a model for how exactly this mechanism works. Padme may not have been the strongest woman in the world, but the evidence that she would actually kill herself after becoming a mother does not really hold up in light of what we know of her character.

Seriously, as Pinto said in the other thread, how is it possible to "will" yourself to death when you're lying on a bed doing absolutely nothing of harm to yourself?

I guess the same way Yoda can "will" himself to live long enough to train Luke. You seriously are trying to apply real world examples to a world where rocks are moved by sheer will and the future can be peered through at will? I didn't write this shit. All GL had to do was be brave enough to have Anakin kill her and I'm not going to accept this nebulous life force sucking vacuum cleaner of doom that spans galactic distances that two jedi masters can't detect at work in the same fucking room.

He wrote the line "She has lost the will to live" and promptly showed her dying. Wow. What a leap of logic on my part.

Joe wrote:Stravo, OK, since you seem to be sure that she somehow "willed" herself to death, perhaps you can explain how exactly you can biologically "will" yourself to death in such a short period of time and develop a model for how exactly this mechanism works. Padme may not have been the strongest woman in the world, but the evidence that she would actually kill herself after becoming a mother does not really hold up in light of what we know of her character.

Sure it does when you consider the negative aspects of her character as well.


She's a lonely, more than a little self obessed woman who has deep emotional issues. It should have been obvious from how she fell for Anakin in the previous one that she has very little experience with real love and nothing at all with healthy relationships. Anakin is stalkerish in his behaviour and definitely obessive and infatuated; sounds more like a stalker than real love. (I'm inclined to think much of that train wreck as it was meant to be in light of everything else). And when she realizes how mess up he is? She ignores it. As others have said, she forgave him for being a mass murderer more than once.

And then he turns on her and tries to kill? Yeah, she's really going to take that well. Padme has had all of zero healthy romantic relationships and this one implodes spectactularly? Heh. It's wonder she didn't put a gun to her head to begin with. It's obvious she's a fucking wreck even before Ecounter at Lava Land.

I can buy a passive sort of suicide of the mystical life-funnel easily. The medical droid didn't, as I recall, say she was just fine. Just that there was nothing sufficient to kill. However giving birth to twin after major trauma and probably prematurely, suggests that she was not in a good place healthwise.

And Palpatine has every reason to lie. It removes every real tie Anakin has, one thing that tips him off to Vader's conflict in the OT. It also send him firmly into darkness, as the Youngling Slaughter began. It also frees him from fufilling a promise he probably couldn't anyway. And last of all it focuses him on hunting down the remaining Jedi. All benefits to Palpatine.

Stravo wrote:I guess the same way Yoda can "will" himself to live long enough to train Luke.

I guess Yoda was receiving instructions from Qui-gon Jinn on how to become one with the Force, thus achieve immortality.

Oh poor Padme, maybe she should have learned that too? Oh whoops... she's not a fucking Jedi.

I didn't write this shit. All GL had to do was be brave enough to have Anakin kill her

You see, this is what we see in the films and what Joe and Duchess' theories account for.

and I'm not going to accept this nebulous life force sucking vacuum cleaner of doom that spans galactic distances that two jedi masters can't detect at work in the same fucking room.

Force bonds, Drain life - all precedents accounted for.

He wrote the line "She has lost the will to live" and promptly showed her dying. Wow. What a leap of logic on my part.

False cause falacy. You see A, assume B. The DROID didn't know what was fucking wrong with her, goddamnit. he wasn't giving a professional medical prognosis. He was just fucking guessing.

jasonicusuk wrote:

We learn that darkside telekenesis is superior to lightside. Yoda has to focus and rotate a single senate pod, while Palpatine has no trouble throwing three at once IIRC.

Don't be dumb. All this proves is that Palpatine's TK is toughter than Yoda's Tk. You can't make such a sweeping statement from so small a sample. I'm a faster runner than my housemate, but that dosn't mean that guys with long hair are slower than guys with short hair.

Palpatine's TK may not be more powerful. Think about it, Yoda was catching and then rotating (why rotate it I have no clue) the pod, before pushing the pod up. So Yoda had to decelerate the pod and then start spinning it. Hell the rotating motion may have come from Palpatine trying to push down on the pod once Yoda caught it.
All Palpatine had to do is lift and drop the pods and maybe give a little extra boost if you want.
I submit that it is more difficult to stop a falling pod and throw it back up than it is to lift them and drop them.

I believe Stravo's main problem is something no has once accounted for.

Where is shown that Anakin ever LEARNED Force Draining. Palpatine had to enter long time of private learning, Kreia likely didn't have it off the bat. So where does Anakin who just became a newly minted Sith Lord, learn an ability that takes a Sith Master on the level of either Kreia or Palpatine YEARS to learn.

I guess the same way Yoda can "will" himself to live long enough to train Luke. You seriously are trying to apply real world examples to a world where rocks are moved by sheer will and the future can be peered through at will? I didn't write this shit.

Padme is not a Force sensitive. Different rules apply to force sensitives, so it is not difficult to understand why Yoda can tap into the Force to affect his lifespan while Padme cannot.

All GL had to do was be brave enough to have Anakin kill her and I'm not going to accept this nebulous life force sucking vacuum cleaner of doom that spans galactic distances that two jedi masters can't detect at work in the same fucking room.

Shroud of the Dark Side, again. The ability of the Jedi to use the force is still diminished. For fuck's sake in EpII something like HALF A DOZEN Jedi Masters couldn't detect the Sith Lord sitting right in front of them in Palpatine's office, why should they be able to detect Anakin sucking the life from Padme?

He wrote the line "She has lost the will to live" and promptly showed her dying. Wow. What a leap of logic on my part.

No, the "she has lost the will to live" line is speculation on the part of the medical droid, not an actual medical diagnosis. The droid quite clearly doesn't know what the fuck is going on and is just making a guess with his limited knowledge. Unless you can explain how Padme could just "will" herself to death the theory that Anakin drained the life out of her is stronger, given the mysterious and not completely understood nature of the Force.

Ghost Rider wrote:Where is shown that Anakin ever LEARNED Force Draining. Palpatine had to enter long time of private learning, Kreia likely didn't have it off the bat. So where does Anakin who just became a newly minted Sith Lord, learn an ability that takes a Sith Master on the level of either Kreia or Palpatine YEARS to learn.

The Force bond isn't something that is learned though, not from what we see in the games. It just seems to happen - will o' the force, style. That seems to be a likely result of Anakin's and Padme's relationship, a subconscious Force bond.

Yes it took Palpatine and Kreia years to reach the levels of power they did. However, we know force powers can be intuited on the fly - Luke learning to dissipate energy for the first time while being zapped by Palpatine.

It's also possible that Padme died from a COMBINATION of causes, not one monolithic cause that goes against the grain of her character. She was injured, she was going through childbirth, and perhaps she could feel her husband's despair due to their connection. What I don't buy is some off the cuff remark made by a droid who didn't know what Padme was dying from, and was just guessing, being the sole cause for her death.

Where is it established that you must have formal Force training to be able to draw on it? Anakin clearly had no training at the time of TPM, yet he was clearly able to draw upon it during pod racing, if only unconsciously.

Ladies and gentlemen, if I may: the purpose of this thread (if I understand it correctly) is not to endlessly debate theory. Rather, it is to propose a list of RotS revelations which will be later compiled into *the* SD.N list of RotS revelations. In other words, this isn't a place to expound theories, but rather a place to contribute facts which are beyond debate.

Not that I am in any position to demand such a thing, but would it not be best to discuss such theories as Force life-leeching in a separate thread?

*gets out his flame retardant gear*

Joe wrote:Where is it established that you must have formal Force training to be able to draw on it? Anakin clearly had no training at the time of TPM, yet he was clearly able to draw upon it during pod racing, if only unconsciously.

There's some suggestion in the EU, particularly Spectre of the Past, that everyone draws on the Force to one extent or another. Indeed we see a non-user as it were using the force thanks to some odd sect of monk. They claim the Jedi and the Sith have only a bare understanding of the Force.

Either way, it seems like the Jedi are special only in the degree and control which they can draw one it rather than being able to in the first place.

Which, if you think about it, provides as much evidence for the passive suicide as the mystical life suck.

SCRawl's right, folks. This thread is for interesting observations (not theories) that can fit into small paragraphs in table cells. If you're going to continue this argument, I believe there is already a thread for it.

Yeah, more or less. It just kind of spilled over here from another thread (though in my defense, Stravo started it ).

Joe wrote:Yeah, more or less. It just kind of spilled over here from another thread (though in my defense, Stravo started it ).

I don't wanna hear it. Either stop it, or I'm turning this thread around and we're going home. Where you'll both be grounded for two weeks.

Durandal wrote:

Joe wrote:Yeah, more or less. It just kind of spilled over here from another thread (though in my defense, Stravo started it ).

I don't wanna hear it. Either stop it, or I'm turning this thread around and we're going home. Where you'll both be grounded for two weeks.

I don't have to listen to you. You're not my real dad!

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:There are already clones of a different template in use. A non-Jango clonetrooper was seen with mask off on Utapau with Cody and Obi-Wan.

When?

He's probably referring to the young Jango actor seen in AotC on Kamino.

Vympel wrote:He's probably referring to the young Jango actor seen in AotC on Kamino.

No, there appeared to be a blonde clonetrooper on Utapau when they had their masks off. I could have simply been seeing things, though.

I'm seeing the movie again tomorrow. I'll keep my eyes open for it this time.

[edit: Added quote]

We learn that darkside telekenesis is superior to lightside. Yoda has to focus and rotate a single senate pod, while Palpatine has no trouble throwing three at once IIRC.

Don't be absurd. First off Sidious was was throwing the pods down at Yoda, he doesn't have to work as hard, because gravity is doing most of the work for him. Yoda was dodging three pods in rapid sucession, but still manages to catch, slow to a stop, and throw his pod back up at Sidious against gravity. He is actually doing more work, not less.

was just reviewing a little footage.

When Anakin takes down the Invisible Hand's hangar shield, he's firing the outside guns on his fighter (Marked as light ion guns in the DK books). This would make sense when he's taking down a ship subsystem. They fire green bolts, and the primary explosion is about the same size as one of the Invisible Hand's quad defense turrets.

Kurgan wrote: Other things to consider:

Anakin's Scar. Can't they fix a simple scar with plastic surgery? I know they have Luke's face reconstructed in a deleted scene in ESB (to explain real life Mark Hamill's accident and reconstruction), so the tech exists 23-24 years later in the hands of a band of Rebels. Or is Anakin just too proud? Jedi healing techniques not strong enough?

More like its not worth the time, trouble and expense to fix minor things like that in the middle of the war. Had Anakin gotten through the war and everything had gone well (ignoring Anakin's fall and the rise of Palpatine to emperor) any scars and minor, non crippling damage could be repaired at their leisure. It just isn't practical to do cosmetic surgery during a war.