Christian Answers That Don't Make Sense #1

[Mange]

The fact is that if it were not for the grace, love and mercy of God none would be saved, not one. God is not stopping you from coming to Him for salvation, you simply choose not to believe, not to repent nor turn to Him for salvation.

Try pointing this out to him:

You don't "choose" any such thing. You don't choose not to believe in God any more than you "choose" not to believe in elves. Or Santa Claus. Or the Great Pumpkin. Belief is not an act of will. It's not something you choose to do or not to do. You merely believe or disbelieve based on whether or not your rational mind finds sufficient evidence to support belief in any given concept, or at the very least, no evidence that tends to undermine belief. Remind him that you have encountered any number of rational arguments that tend to cast doubt on the existence of God (I'm sure you don't need me to supply those). Then ask him if he could honestly overcome all his doubts, make the concious choice to believe in, say, Santa Claus, even knowing all we know about what's really at the north pole, the inability of reindeer to become airborne, or of a man to visit millions of homes in a single night, dropping off toys at each, etc.. Ask him if he seriously believes he could simply dismiss all these doubts and choose to believe sincerely.

Then go ahead and point out if God is omniscient, then every outcome is foreordained. Predestined. Logically, it cannot be otherwise. The idea of the omniscience of God was the root of the Calvinist doctrine of predestination -- which recognizes, incidentally, that God more or less arbitrarily made his mind up in advance who would be "saved", and who wouldn't. And that a God who has omnipotence to go along with his omniscience, could choose to order things a different way, but doesn't care to. So he not only arbitrarily, but willfully condemns the greater part of the human race to spend eternity in a torture chamber called hell. The curious thing is that Calvin was not repelled by the monumental injustice of such a scheme, but rather embraced it.

In any case, despite your adversary's attempt to paint a non-believer as a moral defective who "chooses" to disbelieve, and ends up going to hell, as I said, you really don't have a choice. Despite Christian sophistry about having more than one choice you can make (and I hope I have shown that you really don't have much choice at all, for belief is just not as simply as choosing what to believe), God knows which "choice" you will make. He knows it in advance, which means it’s predestined. After all, if God set everything into motion, all of human history up to and around your birth, determining your physical mind and environment and all the many influences that will come to bear on you, then your "choice", is set by factors outside your control. Your mind and surroundings are supposedly part of the divine plan, so the divine plan must be for you to disbelieve, and end up going to hell. This becomes your destiny, and you can’t escape it, and God becomes responsible.

That everybody's fate is predetermined is layed down in a.o. Romans 8:29-30. So, there's not much you can do, God has already made the choice for you. Thus, not even people who consider themselves "true Christians" can be sure to go to "Heaven" as Jesus is attributed to have said according to the Bible: "For many are called but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). Nevermind that only 144,000 male virgins (12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel) will be redeemed to this "Heaven" (Revelation 14:1-4) where there are all kinds of "beasts" and dragons according to the Revelation (Revelation 4:6-8, 5:14).

[Perinquus]

That everybody's fate is predetermined is layed down in a.o. Romans 8:29-30. So, there's not much you can do, God has already made the choice for you. Thus, not even people who consider themselves "true Christians" can be sure to go to "Heaven" as Jesus is attributed to have said according to the Bible: "For many are called but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). Nevermind that only 144,000 male virgins (12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel) will be redeemed to this "Heaven" (Revelation 14:1-4) where there are all kinds of "beasts" and dragons according to the Revelation (Revelation 4:6-8, 5:14).

True, but elsewhere in the Bible (Romans itself in fact -- Romans 1:18-23 -- among other places) it is stated that man has a choice. This is yet another of the many contradictions in the Bible, and this one has led to a split among Christians into those who believe in predestination, and those who believe in free will. These two positions are often called Calvinism and Arminianism. The Calvinists have logic on their side (if you accept that God is omniscient, then there is no way around predestination), but it makes God an unjust monster, arbitrarily consigning the greater part of the human race to eternal torture. The Arminians have a less monstrous view of God, since they refuse to accept that he could be so unjust, but they still assert that God is omniscient, even though this cannot be reconciled with free will. Both sides can cite verses to support their position -- and this just illustrates another intractable problem with believing in the Bible: it is so internally inconsistent that you can use it to support virtually any position.

[Magnetic]

Perinquus, I will relay your thoughts over at the Christian Forum and see what they say.

If you all will, let this thread sit idle until I get some responses to this. Thanks!

[Perinquus]

Perinquus, I will relay your thoughts over at the Christian Forum and see what they say.

If you all will, let this thread sit idle until I get some responses to this. Thanks!

Oh they'll rationalize it away. I can safely predict this, having made this argument before. You might convince someone who is already experiencing some doubts, or who at least has questions. But the die-hard, true believer is impervious to logic. You won't convince them, because they are not open minded.

[The Spartan]

You won't convince them, because they are not open minded.

But of course they expect us to be. By which, of course, they mean that we should just believe them on blind faith.

Come to think of it, most of the time when someone says to be open-minded that's exactly what they mean.

[Magnetic]

A reply from one of the regulars there.

Quote:
The Calvinists have logic on their side (if you accept that God is omniscient, then there is no way around predestination), but it makes God an unjust monster, arbitrarily consigning the greater part of the human race to eternal torture.


True! This is the excate reason I dislike this doctine SO very much!!! Plus the nonbelievers love to use it as an excuse to not only reject God, but blame Him for their rejection of Him....which the person believing in this doctine would agree with them....so how is that going to lead them to Jesus??? It won't....who would want to woship a God like this?


Quote:
The Arminians have a less monstrous view of God, since they refuse to accept that he could be so unjust, but they still assert that God is omniscient, even though this cannot be reconciled with free will.


This is true up to the part that God cannot be omniscient and still allow for freewill. Just because God knows ahead of time who will accept Him and who will reject Him, does not mean He MAKES them do this. The weather man knows rain to coming to a certain place....does this mean he caused it to rain there? No, of course not!

I know if a child runs out into the street in front of a car he will get hit...does this mean I MADE the child run out in front of the car? no. This is not logically. the writer either doesn't understand this, (which is doubtful as its not that hard to grasp) or doesn't want to believe its true....

Of course he doesn't want to believe its true, because then the responablity of choosing or rejecting God falls into his lap and he doesn't want that....he wants to put ALL the blame on God by believing in the Calvinists point of view...then he can scream all the way to hell he did nothing wrong because God never allowed him a choice...


Quote:
Both sides can cite verses to support their position -- and this just illustrates another intractable problem with believing in the Bible: it is so internally inconsistent that you can use it to support virtually any position.


Oh they will take this plus all the other in-house debates in the church to always say there is contrictions in the bible as another excuse to not believe....rather then actually seeking out the answers for themself.

I do believe certain 'few' individuals in the bible were born for a very specific reason, such as John the Bapist...but this doesn't mean they did not have free will....Judas was also 'selected' and he used his freewill to betray Jesus.

This other junk here:
Quote:
Mange the Swede replies:

That everybody's fate is predetermined is layed down in a.o. Romans 8:29-30. So, there's not much you can do, God has already made the choice for you. Thus, not even people who consider themselves "true Christians" can be sure to go to "Heaven" as Jesus is attributed to have said according to the Bible: "For many are called but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). Nevermind that only 144,000 male virgins (12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel) will be redeemed to this "Heaven" (Revelation 14:1-4) where there are all kinds of "beasts" and dragons according to the Revelation (Revelation 4:6-8, 5:14).


This guy doesn't even know what he is talking about in the first place. The 144,000 does not mean literally virgins for one thing...the dragon in Revelation means satan, and the beast the antichrist....apparently he is taking Revelation WAY too literally...and it doesn't say the dragon nor the beast are in Heaven in the first place...

God bless

[Mange]

This guy doesn't even know what he is talking about in the first place. The 144,000 does not mean literally virgins for one thing...the dragon in Revelation means satan, and the beast the antichrist....apparently he is taking Revelation WAY too literally...and it doesn't say the dragon nor the beast are in Heaven in the first place...

That's funny, since Revelation 14:4 mentions that the 144,000 are "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins." What kind of interpretation should be applied to that passage then?

As for the beasts, Revelation chapter 15 deals specifically with heaven and the seven angels are described as being in Heaven (Rev. 15:1) and the four beasts give the seven angels the vials which contains "the wrath of God" (Rev. 15:7).

Of course, the seven headed beast are an analogy of the Roman Emperors Augustus through Titus, not some future Antichrist.

[Perinquus]

Try throwing this back at him:

The Arminians have a less monstrous view of God, since they refuse to accept that he could be so unjust, but they still assert that God is omniscient, even though this cannot be reconciled with free will.

This is true up to the part that God cannot be omniscient and still allow for freewill. Just because God knows ahead of time who will accept Him and who will reject Him, does not mean He MAKES them do this. The weather man knows rain to coming to a certain place....does this mean he caused it to rain there? No, of course not!

I know if a child runs out into the street in front of a car he will get hit...does this mean I MADE the child run out in front of the car? no. This is not logically. the writer either doesn't understand this, (which is doubtful as its not that hard to grasp) or doesn't want to believe its true....

The writer understands this very well. In fact, the writer understands something else this responder does not -- what a false analogy is.

To take the example of the child running out in front of the car. The responder says he knows: "if a child runs out into the street in front of a car he will get hit". Actually he doesn't, and that's the point. He is not omniscient. God supposedly is. The responder does not know the child will get hit, he knows the child may get hit. If there is a car coming. If the driver does not see the child in time. Or if the road is slick with rain. Or if the brakes fail to work as they should. Or if the child doesn't see the car coming in time to avoid being struck. All these ifs are variables which the responder does not, and cannot know. Since so much is beyond his knowledge and control, of course he would not be responsible if the child were to be struck and killed.

But give the responder the gift of omniscience (like God), and how things change. If, instead of not knowing all these things, the responder instead knew that on 22 July, 2005, at precisely 10:42 and 11 seconds am, Eastern Standard Time, little Billy Wiseman, aged 6, would chase his ball out into the street in front of his house at 122 Maycox Avenue, in Norfolk Virginia; and if the responder also knew ahead of time, that at precisely that moment, 42-year old James Allen would be driving his 2003 Chevy Tahoe along that same street in Billy's direction, and that furthermore, Mr. Allen would not be looking at the road ahead, because he would be busy ogling 5 foot six, 120 pound, 19-year old Karen Stanek, who was walking down the sidewalk on the other side of the street, wearing a midriff baring top and very short shorts, and because his attention was thus diverted, Mr. Allen would not see Billy until it was far too late to stop, and would thus run him down and kill him; and if, finally, the responder were right there at this location, and could easily snatch Billy back before he ran out to his death, how could you then say that the responder has no responsibility for it? The responder would have both complete knowledge the impending event, and the power to prevent it easily. If he does not then act to prevent it under such circumstances, how can he not have responsibility? In fact, if you want to make the analogy more complete and correct, then let us imagine the respondent not only know these things, he caused all these things to happen as they do, for he created all these people and set them on their courses. How can you possibly then say that he is not responsible?

You can't, if you are intellectually honest.

God does not get a free pass on this. If he knows everything, it is as I said earlier: he doesn't just now what choice I can make, he knows what choice I will make, and thus he becomes responsible. I said earlier that the Arminian view of God was less monstrous than the Calvinist view. It really only looks that way on the surface, because the Arminians have not refuted predestination, they've merely sidestepped it. The only way to reconcile God's supposed goodness with free will is to deny that God is omniscient (which they will never do), because if he is omniscient, there is no getting around predestination, and everything bad that happens happens because he allows it to. So as long as predestination is there, God appears as a monster. After all, why would a compassionate, merciful, and loving creator, knowing that my mind, my upbringing, my education etc. will inevitably lead me to reject him, allow me to be born, when he knows I will end up in hell for eternity? Wouldn’t it be kinder and more compassionate never to allow me to be born at all if my ultimate fate is to be so horrible?

[wolveraptor]

Let me use this example: An apple sits here on my desk. Will I eat it? Yes. God already knew this since forever. My decision was already set long before the beginning of the universe. And by whom? Why, the omnipotent creator of everything of course: GOD. Had he not created things exactly the way they are, such that my parents were rich enough, and lived in the right place to afford apples, and such that I was not allergic to apples, and such that my personality was suitable so that I'd eat it, I wouldn't have eaten it. Since God is responsible for all situations and personalities, he is responsible for all actions. Not us. Ergo, no freewill.