How Did the Rebels Perform at Hoth?

[SVPD]

True, but Luke wasn't fighting. Does anyone know how long an X-Wing or Y-Wing can go without refuelling in combat situations?

A very long time. Fuel is not even remotely an issue. No one even began to worry about fuel during the Endor space battle.

Check out the part of the main site about gravitational potential energy and escape velocity and just how much energy that takes.

Plus if, as some have suggested, AT-AT carry shield generators, how many hits from an X-Wing's laser cannons are required to down an AT-AT? How many are required even if it doesn't have some sort of shield generator? How much of the energy required would be required to help the transports fight out of the tightening Imperial noose? How much more fuel is required for atmospheric fighting than for space combat, especially considering the poor aerodynamic designs of space fighters?

According to the main site, each X-Wing Cannon is 600 GW. Given that the Snowspeeders were not designed for combat and their weapons are smaller, it's quite possible that the X-Wing would have been much more effective.

Energy isn't a consideration. Hyperspace and escaping gravity wells takes a tremendous amount of energy, atmospheric combat is a drop in the bucket.

Considering their poor designs for atmospheric fighting, their incredible accelerations in space, how low can an X-Wing or Y-Wing fight within an atmosphere effectively? If there is a minimum effective fight and flight level, is it below the theatre shield. If they can fight effectively, do they need to use their repulsorlifts within a few hundred metres to maintain proper control? How does this affect fuel consumption?

I don't see any real reason for a minimum altitude. The Snowspeeder was hardly more aerodynamic than the X-Wing and did just fine.

Now, while all the evidence we already have points to the very high fuel capacities due to extremely high energy densities present in everyday objects within the Star Wars universe, the most important thing to think about involving all these questions is to ask, "So how would all these factors affect Rebel decision-making processes?" Aside from Admiral Ozzel, very few military officers in the Star Wars universe have ever shown gross incompentence; arrogance, inflexibility, and in the case of the Rebels a willingness to trust in luck a bit too much, but they all know the capacities of their equipment and how to plan around it.

I think the argument "there wasn't time to use the fighters against the walkers" is much stronger than "they couldn't because of technical reasons." Generally speaking, starfighters are one of the few areas where the rebels are at a technological advantage.

Also, with the tank trap part, you'll note that when the Rebels first see the Imperials approach their is a great cloud of smoke and/or steam in the background

.

I'll view the scene again but I don't remember this. Even if it is there, it could easily be snow from the walkers feet. Also, the rebels didn't know the position of the walkers until they were spotted; you'd think landing barges within visual range would have been seen.

Unless there was another position in the line where a battle took place, that was likely the landing site of the Imperial dropships. Thus the North Ridge was in visual range of the Imperial landing site and thus the edge of the shield. With AotC and the Battle of Genosis showing us the range of Star Wars infantry blasters, the Rebels could easily pick off any infantry trying to demolish the obstacles.

Infantry customarily does not demolish obstacles. It's done by tanks and engineering vehicles; infantry would (as you correctly pointed out) get chewed up in such a situation.

And when I say they are positioned right on the perimeter, I mean as close to the interface between the shield and the ground as possible so that a tank, or Star Wars equivalent, could not bear weapons on the obstacles because they are on the other side of the shield, preventing movement forward through the shield. This would mean that only infantry prepared to demolish the obstacles or the AT-AT could clear a path, and for the AT-ATs to do that effectively they would have to turn around and expose their weaker rear armour to the enemy.

Again, infantry does not breach obstacles. Tanks do not breach obstacles with their weapons; they do it with obstacle breaching gear, which is more suitable for clearing corridors.

While I know I only have conjecture and weak supporting evidence, I am still trying to come up with a mechanism to explain why Star Wars uses legged vehicles for attacking the enemy, and in the one instance where we saw a military force use vehicles in defense during a ground battle, they used a wheeled vehicle instead of the walkers they had in abundance already.

To which incident are you referring?

If anyone has any major qualms with my hypothesis, please tell me, but I am simply saying that given the circumstances, I think both sides knew exactly what they were doing, making this perhaps one of the more interesting battles in Star Wars to analyze.

I don't have a problem with the premise that it would have been unwise to use starfighters against the imperials, but I doubt very seriously it was due to fuel limitations or technical constraints.

[Drooling Iguana]

Perhaps it's simply because the Rebels never got around to adapting the X-Wings for Hoth's low temperatures. Yes, I know that they were able to fly, but going straight from the surface to orbit is quite different from staying in the atmosphere for extended combat.

[DoctorPhanan]

Quote
(Considering their poor designs for atmospheric fighting, their incredible accelerations in space, how low can an X-Wing or Y-Wing fight within an atmosphere effectively? If there is a minimum effective fight and flight level, is it below the theatre shield. If they can fight effectively, do they need to use their repulsorlifts within a few hundred metres to maintain proper control? How does this affect fuel consumption?)


I don't see any real reason for a minimum altitude. The Snowspeeder was hardly more aerodynamic than the X-Wing and did just fine.

I actually think that this argument has some merit, since as you said yourself, the snowspeeders were adapted from civilian craft (something that I am not totally convinced of but am willing to concede) the designs were most likely for atmospheric flight, seeing as how the piolots had to switch over to starfighters after the battle.

I am also hard pressed to remeber any instance of an atmospheric dogfight in which starfighters participated. Off the top of my head the only instance that I can think of would be during RoTS during the execution of order 66, and maybe at the beginning of that movie as well.

Obviously, this could be an example of military ineptitude, but I'm not entirely convinced that over the course of 30+ years, and two major wars that they would not learn at all from these events.

[Danny Bhoy]

Their landing barges made planetfall outside the shield perimeter, as per Vader's line ("Make ready to land our troops beyond their energy field. . .") as well as the OT:ITW.

The walkers proceeded to march through the energy shield (one of the advantages of walker (or indeed simply grounded) technology.

No Imperial aircraft got through the Rebel's shield.

The AT-ATs marched through the energy field?

I was always under the impression that the energy field at Hoth 6 was merely a theatre umbrella over Echo Base and that it did not extend to ground level. That the field was intended purely to deflect orbital bombardment.

If that was the case, one could argue that the Imperials messed up by not sending down say TIE fighters/bombers with the landing force. But I'm more inclined to think that since neither the Rebels nor the Imperials bothered to use starfighters in atmospheric combat, it probably indicates that for whatever reason it was not in general terms worth risking starfighters in atmospheric combat.

[Lord Revan]

To which incident are you referring?

he referring to Battle of Kashyyyk in ROTS (the Clones under Yoda used the HAVw A6 Juggernauts instead of walkers). the AT-RTs and AT-AP didn't play a major role in the battle.)

[Soontir C'boath]

Perhaps it's simply because the Rebels never got around to adapting the X-Wings for Hoth's low temperatures. Yes, I know that they were able to fly, but going straight from the surface to orbit is quite different from staying in the atmosphere for extended combat.

X-Wings travel in space i.e. vacuum, I don't think they'd have problems with the low temperature.

[Isolder74]

Perhaps it's simply because the Rebels never got around to adapting the X-Wings for Hoth's low temperatures. Yes, I know that they were able to fly, but going straight from the surface to orbit is quite different from staying in the atmosphere for extended combat.

X-Wings travel in space i.e. vacuum, I don't think they'd have problems with the low temperature.

Space and artic conditions are not the same thing. Space be cold but there is no air. in the artic the air will shunt heat away from the vehicle or person much faster than it will in space. The luner module would work great on the moon but land it in antartica and it will cease to funtion in minutes.

[Lord Revan]

Perhaps it's simply because the Rebels never got around to adapting the X-Wings for Hoth's low temperatures. Yes, I know that they were able to fly, but going straight from the surface to orbit is quite different from staying in the atmosphere for extended combat.

X-Wings travel in space i.e. vacuum, I don't think they'd have problems with the low temperature.

there's three (IIRC) ways heat can "move",conduction, transfer and radiation of these only radiation is possible in vacuum, but radiation is very bad way to move heat (that's why cooling systems use conduction and transfer), so a starfighter could easiely keep it's systems in optimal operation temperature by the waste heat they create. In atmossphare heat also get conducted and transfered (remember that cold is lack of thermal energy) that's it's posssible why for the X-wings to survive the 3 K temperature of space, but not the conditions of Hoth.

EDIT

OK this is a pic I made to clear my post. The figure in the left side is in space and the figure in the right side is in atmossphare (in case someone didn't figure it out by now). T is thermal energy in Joules.

[Isolder74]

that's what I was saying. If they had to modify an air vehicle to make it so it could operate in the hostile conditions of Hoth you can bet an X-Wing would require more if not greater modifications before they would even be capable of making a combat sortie in the cold conditions.

[Lord Revan]

I tried explain the actual mechanism a bit as well, though there's some oversimplifications (like using the same energy for all of heat transfer manners as I didn't remember the correct ratios and it wasn't that important).

[Crazedwraith]

Quote
(Considering their poor designs for atmospheric fighting, their incredible accelerations in space, how low can an X-Wing or Y-Wing fight within an atmosphere effectively? If there is a minimum effective fight and flight level, is it below the theatre shield. If they can fight effectively, do they need to use their repulsorlifts within a few hundred metres to maintain proper control? How does this affect fuel consumption?)


I don't see any real reason for a minimum altitude. The Snowspeeder was hardly more aerodynamic than the X-Wing and did just fine.

Pwersonally I don't see it as any issue of the X-Wings minumum altitude but to do with the snowspeeders maximum one.

Snow speeders can only go so high on replusor lifts but in a starfighter you can go at redicoulos speeds. The rebels didn't one some pilot gunning his engines in panic and smacking right into the energy field and going Boom!

[Tychu]

to continue my arugument from the last poll on who was most aragant i chose the Imps
argued that the Rebels knew damn well that they couldnt win, i forgot to argued with me saying that the Rebels tried to fight back


Now the Battle of Hoth was just a battle to buy time, the Rebels knew they couldnt win. Leias speech before the battle proves that the main purpose of the battle was to get as much personell off of Hoth as possible. For a diversionary tactic the Rebels did an excellent job. There where what about 5 or 6 Star Destroyers visable orbiting Hoth and the Rebels got pretty much every one off the planet. They even had time to get the surviving Snowspeeder pilots to land the speeders, hop into their fighter craft, packed with their needed equipment and leave the planet.

Very good job by the Rebels

[The Grim Squeaker]

In my opinion the only way the rebels could have possibly done better was use their X/Y-wings agaisnt the AT-AT's.
If as you say that probably couldn't be done, then really I can't see how the rebels could have done better than:
Evacuating nearly all their personnel, wiping the datacore, escaping with nearly all their ships, resisting a vastly superior force for so long and relatively low casualties on the ground considering the imperials far heavier vehicles.

[The Original Nex]

The walkers proceeded to march through the energy shield (one of the advantages of walker (or indeed simply grounded) technology.

No Imperial aircraft got through the Rebel's shield.

So you mean to tell me its beyond the Empire's capability to have a grounded transport carry aircraft beneath a shield like the one at Hoth? We can build a Planet Busting Superlaser but we can't get a freaking TIE Fighter on a grounded transport?

Were TIEs at all necessary in the combat? You're saying that because they didn't transport TIEs through the shield that they can't do it? That's quite a leap in logic.

[Isolder74]

The walkers proceeded to march through the energy shield (one of the advantages of walker (or indeed simply grounded) technology.

No Imperial aircraft got through the Rebel's shield.

So you mean to tell me its beyond the Empire's capability to have a grounded transport carry aircraft beneath a shield like the one at Hoth? We can build a Planet Busting Superlaser but we can't get a freaking TIE Fighter on a grounded transport?

Were TIEs at all necessary in the combat? You're saying that because they didn't transport TIEs through the shield that they can't do it? That's quite a leap in logic.

The ties may also be restricted for similar reasons to the X-Wings and Y-wings

[drachefly]

Though I buy the 'it's too cold for extended combat' argument, I am left wondering why the X-wings that went up early didn't pop a proton torpedo or to onto those AT-AT's.

As for 'friendly fire' arguments:

1) nail the AT-AT's in the back first, that'll reduce the interfering fire against the snowspeeders
2) the infantry should have retreated rapidly once it was clear that this was an armored blitz and their weapons were useless. I get the impression that for the most part that is what they did; so they wouldn't be all that close anyway.
3) groundworks help considerably against big but distant explosions.

[Lord Revan]

Though I buy the 'it's too cold for extended combat' argument, I am left wondering why the X-wings that went up early didn't pop a proton torpedo or to onto those AT-AT's.

As for 'friendly fire' arguments:

1) nail the AT-AT's in the back first, that'll reduce the interfering fire against the snowspeeders
2) the infantry should have retreated rapidly once it was clear that this was an armored blitz and their weapons were useless. I get the impression that for the most part that is what they did; so they wouldn't be all that close anyway.
3) groundworks help considerably against big but distant explosions.

two things, first the X-wings were on their when the AT-ATs arrived, Second there's no point on wasting Protorp on the walkers when you limited supply of them it doesn't change the outcome of the battle.

[FOG3]

Now the Battle of Hoth was just a battle to buy time, the Rebels knew they couldnt win. Leias speech before the battle proves that the main purpose of the battle was to get as much personell off of Hoth as possible. For a diversionary tactic the Rebels did an excellent job. There where what about 5 or 6 Star Destroyers visable orbiting Hoth and the Rebels got pretty much every one off the planet. They even had time to get the surviving Snowspeeder pilots to land the speeders, hop into their fighter craft, packed with their needed equipment and leave the planet.

Very good job by the Rebels

Evidence that they even got the majority of those transports past the blockade intact? We see only the first one actually break the blockade safely, and it had surprise on it's side, right?

If there isn't such evidence I can remember at least one short story in EU indicating the lost quite a few of their transports. From Tales of the Bounty Hunters or some such it seems like. In which case that op wasn't nearly as sucessful as you're potraying it.

[Darth Fanboy]

The walkers proceeded to march through the energy shield (one of the advantages of walker (or indeed simply grounded) technology.

No Imperial aircraft got through the Rebel's shield.

So you mean to tell me its beyond the Empire's capability to have a grounded transport carry aircraft beneath a shield like the one at Hoth? We can build a Planet Busting Superlaser but we can't get a freaking TIE Fighter on a grounded transport?

Were TIEs at all necessary in the combat? You're saying that because they didn't transport TIEs through the shield that they can't do it? That's quite a leap in logic.

Quit distorting my words damnit. I asked WHY the Empire didn't try and get fighters or another kind of aerial equipment past the rebels shield. either by sending them down and then transporting them through grounded means. I never said they couldn't do it. I made no fucking leap.

Were the TIEs or other air support necessary? I would say yes, because if the Empire had something to engage the snowspeeders then they wouldn't have lost any AT-ATs, and the troops on the ground could focus fully on overrunning the Rebels.

[Lord Sabre Ace]

Their goal was to survive, and the Rebellion lived on. It was tactical defeat but an overall strategic victory for the Rebels.

[Knife]

To all those talking about killing AT-AT's with starfighters; say they did use the Xwings and killed the 5 Walkers. What would that have bought them? Does killing the Walkers on the ground open up escape routes from the blockade developing around the planet while the AT-AT's are moving in?

They needed to load up their transports and slip through the fleet of Stardestroyers deploying around the planet in a blockade, the Walkers were a secondary concern. Screwing around with the Imperial ground forces just gave the starfleet more time to close up the gaps. The rebels needed to hold off the ground forces just long enough to evacuate, not to win or hold the Imps ground forces off.

[Lord Sabre Ace]

To all those talking about killing AT-AT's with starfighters; say they did use the Xwings and killed the 5 Walkers. What would that have bought them? Does killing the Walkers on the ground open up escape routes from the blockade developing around the planet while the AT-AT's are moving in?

They needed to load up their transports and slip through the fleet of Stardestroyers deploying around the planet in a blockade, the Walkers were a secondary concern. Screwing around with the Imperial ground forces just gave the starfleet more time to close up the gaps. The rebels needed to hold off the ground forces just long enough to evacuate, not to win or hold the Imps ground forces off.

They had the Ion Cannon, but that only disabled the ships. They didn't have the necessary firepower to destroy the fleet. Still, I wonder why they only used the Ion Cannon once?

[Knife]

They had the Ion Cannon, but that only disabled the ships. They didn't have the necessary firepower to destroy the fleet. Still, I wonder why they only used the Ion Cannon once?

The Ion Cannon was a static weapon covering a limited arc of space, even if the rebels held the walkers off for hours, the SD's would still just set up a blockade and kill the transports as they come off planet. The rebels played their card with the Ion Cannon, but after the first couple shots, the Imps would know where it was, generally and could avoid it while still keeping in postition to destroy any incoming transports.

You have to figure that if the Ion cannon can make it up that far in orbit, SD weapons can fire that far too. Just sit over the horizon out of it's arc and wait to pick off any transports that crest it. Rebels still lose.

Simply, they needed to hold of the ground forces long enough to make a quick escape while the Imp fleet was still deploying.

[Jaevric]

It may well be that most of Death Squadron's TIEs were needed in space for the blockade, and sending them into atmosphere was seen as counterproductive--the Empire would rather lose most of its AT-ATs than miss out on killing Rebel transports; after all, the Empire is much more capable of replacing losses in a battle of attrition than the Rebels are! Once it was obvious the Rebels intended to flee and not try to hold the base against the Imperial assault, the TIEs became more useful attacking transports than making life a little easier for the Snowtroopers and AT-ATs.

Also, TIE fighters aren't particularly aerodynamic, and may not have handled the conditions on Hoth any better than X-Wings or Y-Wings. Combined with their reliance on repulsorlifts for atmospheric flight, the Imperial forces may have simply figured that the Snowspeeders could shred what few TIEs could be spared from blockade duty.

[Lord Sabre Ace]

Also, TIE fighters aren't particularly aerodynamic, and may not have handled the conditions on Hoth any better than X-Wings or Y-Wings. Combined with their reliance on repulsorlifts for atmospheric flight, the Imperial forces may have simply figured that the Snowspeeders could shred what few TIEs could be spared from blockade duty.

Snowspeeders were modified utility airspeeders. Putting them into battle against TIEs would be like sending the family Suburban (if you could make it fly and arm it) to fight against an F-15. It's just not meant for the job.