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SirNitram
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Post by SirNitram »

Darth Wong wrote:To the best of my knowledge tachyons have never been observed at all, and remain nothing more than a mathematical abstraction. But that still makes them more scientific than subspace, which is just a completely made-up Star Trek term.
You are right; tachyons haven't been observed. However, as they are nothing but normal particles with a velocity above c, they're not very objectionable; nothing in science says something can't have a velocity above c, just that you can't accelerate up to such speeds from below-lightspeed.

That's positively ironclad compared to chronitons and gravitons, and other detritus of theoretical physics that Star Trek has horded.
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Post by Wyrm »

Darth Wong wrote:To the best of my knowledge tachyons have never been observed at all, and remain nothing more than a mathematical abstraction. But that still makes them more scientific than subspace, which is just a completely made-up Star Trek term.
Mathematicians versed in linear algebra and topology would beg to differ with you on this last point. Check it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_subspace
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_subspace

If one of those Theories-of-Everything that introduces lots of compact dimensions to the usual spacetime pans out, then there are likely to be (uncountably-many!) subspaces of those curled up dimensions.

I'm not even within spitting distance of speculating what phenomena these real subspaces might create, or if they could be use to build FTL drives. However, considering that every time someone sits down to work out the properties of tachyons, they either (a) show instabilities (such as experiencing exponeintially growing acceleration, or the de Broglie matter waves going exponential), or (b) are forced to lose their tachyonic properties (such as tachyon condensation that produces the Higgs bosons).
SirNitram wrote:...as they are nothing but normal particles with a velocity above c, they're not very objectionable; nothing in science says something can't have a velocity above c, just that you can't accelerate up to such speeds from below-lightspeed.
At first blush, tachyons look perfectly consistent. Indeed, the dispersion relation for their de Broglie waves, ω^2 = k^2 - (m/\bar{h})^2 (where m is the imaginary part of the tachyon's mass (a real number), k is the circular wave number of the de Broglie wave, and ω is the angular frequency) is both Lorentz invariant and has a group velocity greater than c, indicating that they act just like sublight particles, but with the time axis switched with an arbitrary axis in space. What could be wrong?

The problem lies not with the equations, but in the boundary conditions. One boundary condition is the initial condition, where we ask "given this initial arragement, what happens?" a statement that singles out time as the direction of predicition.

Suppose we have a matter field that interacts with tachyons, a periodic arrangment of the source at time zero. The source will couple to a pair of tachyons going in two directions. So far, so good. But suppose we increase the wavelength λ of the source such that 2π/λ = k < - (m/\bar{h})^2, which is easy enough to arrange. Solving for ω, you find that no real number solutions exists, the angular frequency is imaginary, and occilatory solutions turn into exponentials, one of which is a growing exponential. The tachyon wave is unstable if proturbed with long-wavelength perturbations.

No one has found a cure for this, except in tachyon condensations of tachyon fields. But when this occurs, the tachyonic aspects of the field disappears, and the quanta become particles of positive mass, and subject to the usual SR restrictions of forbidding information transfer (including of spaceships) at FTL speeds. Either way, the known properties of tachyons indicate that they're useless for FTL travel.

This is just my opinion here, but I'd say this puts tachyons and subspace on equal footing as mechanisms of going FTL. Sure, the footing for subspace may not be firm, but FTL by tachyon is equally firm.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Wyrm wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:To the best of my knowledge tachyons have never been observed at all, and remain nothing more than a mathematical abstraction. But that still makes them more scientific than subspace, which is just a completely made-up Star Trek term.
Mathematicians versed in linear algebra and topology would beg to differ with you on this last point. Check it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_subspace
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_subspace

If one of those Theories-of-Everything that introduces lots of compact dimensions to the usual spacetime pans out, then there are likely to be (uncountably-many!) subspaces of those curled up dimensions.
Don't be a retard. A mathematical subspace is not a parallel dimension.
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Post by The Dark »

Adrian Laguna wrote:Star Wars uses the example three.
So does the Alien universe, with the addition of the baryon/tachyon inversion meaning that time speeds up for passengers going FTL, which is the reason for the FTL stasis pods.

There's also "jump" FTL, like in the Starfire or Heavy Gear universes, where no ship can travel FTL, but there are "portals" that allow instantaneous travel between systems, effectively allowing FTL travel between those systems, but strictly STL travel within systems.
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The Dark
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Post by The Dark »

The Dark wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:Star Wars uses the example three.
So does the Alien universe, with the addition of the baryon/tachyon inversion meaning that time speeds up for passengers going FTL, which is the reason for the FTL stasis pods.

There's also "jump" FTL, like in the Starfire or Heavy Gear universes, where no ship can travel FTL, but there are "portals" that allow instantaneous travel between systems, effectively allowing FTL travel between those systems, but strictly STL travel within systems.
OK, stupid me missed something I wanted to say :oops: . The "jump" FTL I mentioned is different from the Jump Drive of Battletech, which allows jumps to ANY star within a specified range, so we're up to (effectively) 5 methods of traveling Faster Than Light within science fiction, although some are similar to each other.

Oh, and #1 has had theoretical equations run on it. It requires negative energy, but in theory it works :lol: . Try googling "Alcubierre Warp Drive" or variations thereof to find the papers on it. There is a newer, modified version, but I forget who wrote that paper.
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Post by Plushie »

The Dark wrote:
The Dark wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:Star Wars uses the example three.
So does the Alien universe, with the addition of the baryon/tachyon inversion meaning that time speeds up for passengers going FTL, which is the reason for the FTL stasis pods.

There's also "jump" FTL, like in the Starfire or Heavy Gear universes, where no ship can travel FTL, but there are "portals" that allow instantaneous travel between systems, effectively allowing FTL travel between those systems, but strictly STL travel within systems.
OK, stupid me missed something I wanted to say :oops: . The "jump" FTL I mentioned is different from the Jump Drive of Battletech, which allows jumps to ANY star within a specified range, so we're up to (effectively) 5 methods of traveling Faster Than Light within science fiction, although some are similar to each other.

Oh, and #1 has had theoretical equations run on it. It requires negative energy, but in theory it works :lol: . Try googling "Alcubierre Warp Drive" or variations thereof to find the papers on it. There is a newer, modified version, but I forget who wrote that paper.
Alcubierre's Warp Drive is actually the most promising theoretical FTL concept we have. Pretty much everything else is either really impossible or requires some sort of STL pre-journey.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/resea ... achev.html

The fuel-less drives they list there would not actually be able to go FTL (it would still require infinite energy to produce a gradient large enough for c speed travel), the worm holes are not only hideously impracticle to build but also would require you to go where you want to go anyway.
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Post by Morilore »

Plushie wrote:Alcubierre's Warp Drive is actually the most promising theoretical FTL concept we have. Pretty much everything else is either really impossible or requires some sort of STL pre-journey.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/resea ... achev.html

The fuel-less drives they list there would not actually be able to go FTL (it would still require infinite energy to produce a gradient large enough for c speed travel), the worm holes are not only hideously impracticle to build but also would require you to go where you want to go anyway.
Unless I'm staggeringly ignorant, I'd think that time dilation would make the wormhole route more manageble.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that a spaceship carried one terminus of a wormhole and traveled at high relativistic velocities, the two ends would be matched. So that, if from the perspective of the ship the journey to Wherever took 5 years, and was 10 lightyears away, then if one entered the terminus on earth 5 years after launch he would find the ship at its destination instead of halfway there.
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Post by Wyrm »

Darth Wong wrote:Don't be a retard. A mathematical subspace is not a parallel dimension.
:?: "Parallel dimension"? Oh yeah. One TNG episode ("Night Terrors", was it?) established that subspace was actually an infitite set of manifolds. So much for that.

Still, that just means that what Star Trek calls "subspace" is a misuse of the term, not that "subspace" itself was invented by the writers of Star Trek, which is the way I took your quote,
Darth Wong previously wrote:...subspace, which is just a completely made-up Star Trek term.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Wyrm wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Don't be a retard. A mathematical subspace is not a parallel dimension.
:?: "Parallel dimension"? Oh yeah. One TNG episode ("Night Terrors", was it?) established that subspace was actually an infitite set of manifolds. So much for that.

Still, that just means that what Star Trek calls "subspace" is a misuse of the term, not that "subspace" itself was invented by the writers of Star Trek, which is the way I took your quote,
Darth Wong previously wrote:...subspace, which is just a completely made-up Star Trek term.
As far as physics is concerned, it is a made-up term. It would be like me saying that I'm going to shoot you with an eigenvector.
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Post by Wyrm »

Darth Wong wrote:As far as physics is concerned, it is a made-up term. It would be like me saying that I'm going to shoot you with an eigenvector.
*shrug* When they say "subspace," a first thought is, "Maybe they call it that because the mathematical formalism of whatever they're really talking about is a mathematical subspace." That was mine. FTL ain't patty-cake, so you have to assume that they know something about they're talking about.

Like I said: so much for that.

As for the tachyons... Well, to borrow your analogy, it's like saying you're going shoot a sillyputty arrow at me; it doesn't seem like what you're using has the required properties. :?
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SirNitram: "The nation of France is a theory, not a fact. It should therefore be approached with an open mind, and critically debated and considered."

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Post by fgalkin »

*Reads mail* Sweet baby Jesus, this is hilarious.

Have a very nice day.
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Post by Havok »

Ugh!! I think I need a tutor for SDNET!!!! I hate math!!!!
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Post by NoXion »

Here's a list of various FTL methods - be warned that none of them are really practical:

Stardrives
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Post by NoXion »

Here's a list of various FTL methods - be warned that none of them are really practical:

Stardrives
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky


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Post by Adrian Laguna »

An interesting thought came to me. Merely posting a response to the idiot who mailed DW is nothing more than an entertaining intellectual exercise. You don't really get the satisfaction of handing down a good smackdown if the guy isn't reading it. To rectify this this I have E-mailed him (the last time Mike posted an E-mail from a random idiot he said this was alright).
Adrian Laguna wrote: Subject: Reguarding the E-mail sent to Mike Wong, webmaster of StarDestroyer.net

He posted it in his forums with the comment, "I honestly can't bother to waste the time on idiots like this. But if any of you feel like entertaining yourselves, go ahead."

I'm sure you will find the replies of various members, including myself, to be of interest. The thread degenerates into a discussion of FTL drives after a while, but the very beginning contains some good debunking of your bullshit and general ignorace of scientific principles.

Here is the link: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=77284

Sincerely yours,
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Post by NoXion »

Hmm, I wonder what he'll say. I bet my left testicle he'll be making excuses.
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky


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