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Not to bust into a military guys-only thread (although I'm not the first invader), but remember, gentlemen: the Feddies had five months in which to dig in and prepare their positions.

And after all that time, what they had was ... using natural rocks just outside the front door for cover. Wow.

Darth Wong wrote:Not to bust into a military guys-only thread (although I'm not the first invader),

Whose board is this again?
I doubt anyones going to object.

but remember, gentlemen: the Feddies had five months in which to dig in and prepare their positions.

And after all that time, what they had was ... using natural rocks just outside the front door for cover. Wow.

I'm going to restart my comments on that debacle, I threw out the old ones as they had turned into a 1 Mb rant on how fucked up the Feds were. Maybe another attempt will produce a better essay.

Having said that we've barely touched on the incompetence of that episode here. Now there's a frightening concept.

It is interesting to note that so far this small poll is an almost exact mirror of my own ongoing one. To date I have found only 1 Military person that thought that ST was a viable military, and the denizens of ASVS are familiar with the ST leanings of 2nd Lt Natasha Bell of the US Army. (I will however point out that away from the Subject of ST she was a very nice and personable young woman).

The tactical stupidity of the Federation and Star Trek in general should come to no suprise to anyone. Afterall, the series is written by 40 year old men who have never had sex, not even with a Catholic priest.

Wicked Pilot wrote:The tactical stupidity of the Federation and Star Trek in general should come to no suprise to anyone. Afterall, the series is written by 40 year old men who have never had sex, not even with a Catholic priest.

Well, loathe as I am to give the man credit for anything - Brannon Braga is porking Jeri Ryan. What she sees in him I can't imagine, but then, there's no accounting for taste. Heather Locklear/Tommy Lee, Richie Sambora; Carmen Electra/Dennis Rodman; Rose McGowan/Marilyn Manson; Stephanie Seymour/Axl Rose. Jeri just joins the list of Babes With Bad Taste (AKA: damaged goods).

You guys have already summed up my comments about Trek combat, so I guess I don't have to add my 0.02 cents.

Now a rant...How about something innovative for infantry support, like transporter artillery? Just beam it into the are over the enemies formation-since trek combat doesn't dig in , should be a massacre...

EmperorMing wrote:You guys have already summed up my comments about Trek combat, so I guess I don't have to add my 0.02 cents.

Now a rant...How about something innovative for infantry support, like transporter artillery? Just beam it into the are over the enemis formation-since trek combat doesn't dig in , should be a massacre...

i just had this vision of Klingons looking up in amazement as freshly transported M110's rain from the sky.

"today is a good day to be squashed!"

I take it you actually mean the hells though.

But why bother, take some of your Warp Plasma and beam it directly on the battlefield.
"Today is a good day to corrode!"

Rob Wilson wrote:

EmperorMing wrote:You guys have already summed up my comments about Trek combat, so I guess I don't have to add my 0.02 cents.

Now a rant...How about something innovative for infantry support, like transporter artillery? Just beam it into the are over the enemis formation-since trek combat doesn't dig in , should be a massacre...

i just had this vision of Klingons looking up in amazement as freshly transported M110's rain from the sky.

"today is a good day to be squashed!"

I take it you actually mean the hells though.

But why bother, take some of your Warp Plasma and beam it directly on the battlefield.
"Today is a good day to corrode!"

Now that the thread has gone to joking, I must add in with this..

Federation ground combat is of a sufficient static nature, that were the following weapon to be accompanied by a second vehicle carrying a magnetic shield generator, thus jamming transporters and probably sensors, it would be sufficient to disperse any Feddies, or Klingons, or Jemmies, about.

Just throw in a battalion of modern light infantry and the Federation could never take a planet defended by one of these without orbital bombardment, one dares to say (Assuming they could find out where to aim) :

http://www.vce.com/AtomicGallery/movies/cannon.html

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:

EmperorMing wrote:You guys have already summed up my comments about Trek combat, so I guess I don't have to add my 0.02 cents.

Now a rant...How about something innovative for infantry support, like transporter artillery? Just beam it into the are over the enemis formation-since trek combat doesn't dig in , should be a massacre...

i just had this vision of Klingons looking up in amazement as freshly transported M110's rain from the sky.

"today is a good day to be squashed!"

I take it you actually mean the hells though.

But why bother, take some of your Warp Plasma and beam it directly on the battlefield.
"Today is a good day to corrode!"

Now that the thread has gone to joking, I must add in with this..

Federation ground combat is of a sufficient static nature, that were the following weapon to be accompanied by a second vehicle carrying a magnetic shield generator, thus jamming transporters and probably sensors, it would be sufficient to disperse any Feddies, or Klingons, or Jemmies, about.

Just throw in a battalion of modern light infantry and the Federation could never take a planet defended by one of these without orbital bombardment, one dares to say (Assuming they could find out where to aim) :

http://www.vce.com/AtomicGallery/movies/cannon.html

The reference *static* brings up artillery barrages in my mind...Or orbital munitions drops...

Rob Wilson wrote:

EmperorMing wrote:You guys have already summed up my comments about Trek combat, so I guess I don't have to add my 0.02 cents.

Now a rant...How about something innovative for infantry support, like transporter artillery? Just beam it into the are over the enemis formation-since trek combat doesn't dig in , should be a massacre...

i just had this vision of Klingons looking up in amazement as freshly transported M110's rain from the sky.

"today is a good day to be squashed!"

I take it you actually mean the hells though.

But why bother, take some of your Warp Plasma and beam it directly on the battlefield.
"Today is a good day to corrode!"

Hells? Actually, any cluster munition *should* do...

Or I should say any cluster munition that will kill dismounted troops with minimal cover...

Military guys only thread? I feel so excluded

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Now that the thread has gone to joking, I must add in with this..

Federation ground combat is of a sufficient static nature, that were the following weapon to be accompanied by a second vehicle carrying a magnetic shield generator, thus jamming transporters and probably sensors, it would be sufficient to disperse any Feddies, or Klingons, or Jemmies, about.

Just throw in a battalion of modern light infantry and the Federation could never take a planet defended by one of these without orbital bombardment, one dares to say (Assuming they could find out where to aim) :

http://www.vce.com/AtomicGallery/movies/cannon.html

It hasn't gone completely to joking yet.

Nice movie though, bit of overkill for ST ground forces. I'm wondering if a planar transport is possible? just transport away a section of air maybe 50m x 50m x 0.0005m. All those soldiers sliced efficiently in two that's only 1.3 cubic m of space (something they have no real problem with) and needs very little power.

ArmorPierce wrote:Military guys only thread? I feel so excluded

Because it's the military people I want the opinions of for my research. Don't take it personally... here, have a beer.

Rob Wilson wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Now that the thread has gone to joking, I must add in with this..

Federation ground combat is of a sufficient static nature, that were the following weapon to be accompanied by a second vehicle carrying a magnetic shield generator, thus jamming transporters and probably sensors, it would be sufficient to disperse any Feddies, or Klingons, or Jemmies, about.

Just throw in a battalion of modern light infantry and the Federation could never take a planet defended by one of these without orbital bombardment, one dares to say (Assuming they could find out where to aim) :

http://www.vce.com/AtomicGallery/movies/cannon.html

It hasn't gone completely to joking yet.

Nice movie though, bit of overkill for ST ground forces. I'm wondering if a planar transport is possible? just transport away a section of air maybe 50m x 50m x 0.0005m. All those soldiers sliced efficiently in two that's only 1.3 cubic m of space (something they have no real problem with) and needs very little power.

You could actually go alot further with this if you wanted. Beam in any NBC type gas and watch the troops die like flies in the cold.

Or beam a fuel-air explosive into their midst and laugh as they die in a non-nuclear fireball.

EmperorMing wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:
I'm wondering if a planar transport is possible? just transport away a section of air maybe 50m x 50m x 0.0005m. All those soldiers sliced efficiently in two that's only 1.3 cubic m of space (something they have no real problem with) and needs very little power.

You could actually go alot further with this if you wanted. Beam in any NBC type gas and watch the troops die like flies in the cold.

Hence my earlier idea of Warp plasma etc. Unfortunately they only need transport scramblers to stop these idea's... except for my pisstake of your's. Instead of Artillery pieces we transport metal pieces? At say 2000ft a collection of metal pipes and shards just transported in and left to fall. Who cares if the peices get mangled, it's not a problem and whose going to be blocking the transport at that height? The only reason not to use bombs is that interference might prevent an intact transport. With the premade shrapnel from above, no longer a problem.

See told you we weren't joking yet Marina.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Federation ground combat is of a sufficient static nature, that were the following weapon to be accompanied by a second vehicle carrying a magnetic shield generator, thus jamming transporters and probably sensors, it would be sufficient to disperse any Feddies, or Klingons, or Jemmies, about.

Just throw in a battalion of modern light infantry and the Federation could never take a planet defended by one of these without orbital bombardment, one dares to say (Assuming they could find out where to aim) :

http://www.vce.com/AtomicGallery/movies/cannon.html

Ah, but you've already had Feddies use Atomic Annie

phongn wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Federation ground combat is of a sufficient static nature, that were the following weapon to be accompanied by a second vehicle carrying a magnetic shield generator, thus jamming transporters and probably sensors, it would be sufficient to disperse any Feddies, or Klingons, or Jemmies, about.

Just throw in a battalion of modern light infantry and the Federation could never take a planet defended by one of these without orbital bombardment, one dares to say (Assuming they could find out where to aim) :

http://www.vce.com/AtomicGallery/movies/cannon.html

Ah, but you've already had Feddies use Atomic Annie

Now that was a good 'Fic. One of the first ones I read on The ASVS Fanfic Archives. Some very nice idea's in it too. Hope she's still writing new stuff.

Rob Wilson wrote:

phongn wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Federation ground combat is of a sufficient static nature, that were the following weapon to be accompanied by a second vehicle carrying a magnetic shield generator, thus jamming transporters and probably sensors, it would be sufficient to disperse any Feddies, or Klingons, or Jemmies, about.

Just throw in a battalion of modern light infantry and the Federation could never take a planet defended by one of these without orbital bombardment, one dares to say (Assuming they could find out where to aim) :

http://www.vce.com/AtomicGallery/movies/cannon.html

Ah, but you've already had Feddies use Atomic Annie

Now that was a good 'Fic. One of the first ones I read on The ASVS Fanfic Archives. Some very nice idea's in it too. Hope she's still writing new stuff.

I didn't find FOTE that entertaining, really, though Marina probably knows that already. Just a lot of combat without any real point, it seemed, or character development or anything else. Her writing style wasn't that good at the time either.

TLP was better and her writing much improved.

DIG is quite good, of course. You've read it, right?

phongn wrote: I didn't find FOTE that entertaining, really, though Marina probably knows that already. Just a lot of combat without any real point, it seemed, or character development or anything else. Her writing style wasn't that good at the time either.

TLP was better and her writing much improved.

DIG is quite good, of course. You've read it, right?

Fist of the Empire was all about idea's, that they didn't have a central plot that worked properly didn't matter, I just think she had to get them out there if only as practise or a writing exercise. The long Patrol was learning to do characters and pacing, and DIG? I only read the first 2 chapters before RL interrupted but it showed that her previous works had given her excellent core skills to build on.

If you want to reply to this, can you do it in the "Yeeeeeehaaaa" thread i the Fanfic Forum (just to prevent messing up this subject - you know how much I'll post about Fanfic )

I won't vote, since I'm not military (yet), but one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the lack of an automatic weapon in ST (at least, I've never seen one). The phaser seems to only be capable of firing on one target at a time unless in wide beam mode, in which case it loses range and power. This makes for an ineffective infantry weapon for repelling mass charges like the one mentioned earlier.

The Dark wrote:I won't vote, since I'm not military (yet), but one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the lack of an automatic weapon in ST (at least, I've never seen one). The phaser seems to only be capable of firing on one target at a time unless in wide beam mode, in which case it loses range and power. This makes for an ineffective infantry weapon for repelling mass charges like the one mentioned earlier.

the strange thing is that the Mark III Phaser rifle they had was a constant beam weapon with no recoil. Why the hell weren't they simply swept across the charging Jems? It'll drain the powerpack sure, but it'll hit everything.

Just with 6 men you could have stopped them cold.


1 . . . . 2 . . . . 3 . . . . 4 . . . . 5 . . . . 6

1 starts from the Left most edge and sweeps to 2 o'clock, 2 starts from his 2 o'clock and sweeps to his 10 o'clock, 3 Starts from 10 o'clock and sweeps to his 2 o'clock, 4 starts from his 2 o'clock and sweeps to his 10 o'clock, 5 starts from his 10 o'clock and sweeps to his 2 o'clock and 6 sweeps from the rightmost edge to his 10 o'clock. Every part of that firezone is under constant fire all the time and they sweep back and forth until the packs die. Maybe have the rest of the men fire aimed shots at any jems that duck.

They just don't think of the most basic idea's. by the time the packs are used up the Jems would be dead.

Boss dude, Berman and Brega are too busy thinking up crap to sell as Star Trek to actually think about proper military tactics.

Rob Wilson wrote:the strange thing is that the Mark III Phaser rifle they had was a constant beam weapon with no recoil. Why the hell weren't they simply swept across the charging Jems? It'll drain the powerpack sure, but it'll hit everything.

Just with 6 men you could have stopped them cold.

1 2 3 4 5 6

1 starts from the Left most edge and sweeps to 2 o'clock, 2 starts from his 2 o'clock and sweeps to his 10 o'clock, 3 Starts from 10 o'clock and sweeps to his 2 o'clock, 4 starts from his 2 o'clock and sweeps to his 10 o'clock, 5 starts from his 10 o'clock and sweeps to his 2 o'clock and 6 sweeps from the rightmost edge to his 10 o'clock. Every part of that firezone is under constant fire all the time and they sweep back and forth until the packs die. Maybe have the rest of the men fire aimed shots at any jems that duck.

They just don't think of the most basic idea's. by the time the packs are used up the Jems would be dead.

I wonder how long they can fire those continuous beams. For all we know, they're only good for about 15 seconds. Mind you, it still would have worked better than what they did.

Rob Wilson wrote:

The Dark wrote: the strange thing is that the Mark III Phaser rifle they had was a constant beam weapon with no recoil. Why the hell weren't they simply swept across the charging Jems? It'll drain the powerpack sure, but it'll hit everything.

Just with 6 men you could have stopped them cold.


1 . . . . 2 . . . . 3 . . . . 4 . . . . 5 . . . . 6

1 starts from the Left most edge and sweeps to 2 o'clock, 2 starts from his 2 o'clock and sweeps to his 10 o'clock, 3 Starts from 10 o'clock and sweeps to his 2 o'clock, 4 starts from his 2 o'clock and sweeps to his 10 o'clock, 5 starts from his 10 o'clock and sweeps to his 2 o'clock and 6 sweeps from the rightmost edge to his 10 o'clock. Every part of that firezone is under constant fire all the time and they sweep back and forth until the packs die. Maybe have the rest of the men fire aimed shots at any jems that duck.

They just don't think of the most basic idea's. by the time the packs are used up the Jems would be dead.

If they used that tactic with all their phasers, it would go a hell of a long way to explain why they never bothered to incorporate sights on most of them. If you activate the beam, then "chop" it into someone, you wouldn't have as much need of sights, and it might even be faster than aimed fire (though it could be rather unfortunate when precision is needed). Just another abvious idea they never thought of.

Darth Wong wrote: I wonder how long they can fire those continuous beams. For all we know, they're only good for about 15 seconds. Mind you, it still would have worked better than what they did.

15 seconds is all you need, how long does it take you to swing your waist so you face from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock and back again, even in a leisurely manner?

On top of that they only had a few seconds before the Jems were in amongst them. It's not a pretty tactic, but like I said no recoil so why not. It gets the job done.

Knife or any other Infantry/Marines want a crack at this scenario?

If you haven't seen the episode you have platoon to reinforced platoon strength enemy forces, exposed to fire over a fire zone approx 20m max in length and approx 30m width, your lines are 10m in width and you have a understrength platoon with Type III phaser rifles and Knives. We will limit you to one Battery pack per man per weapon, fully charged.

This is the situation the Feds got themselves into. You may however risk moving forward to the other end of the Fire zone to fire at the Jems whilst they are being decimated in a minefield placed in a vlley they must approach through, though you then have an exposed withdrawal to your primary defences. You may split forces as necessary and the Enemy and your sensors are jammed.