StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Drooling Iguana wrote:They've also released the source code to Quake 2 and 3.

Fair enough. I imagine we'll see something moderately fun built from the Q3 code, but it's still not content for the gamers. I'm personally not interested in six-year old source code, I'm interested in content using today's code, and I'd be willing to bet most gamers would enjoy that themselves.

Hotfoot wrote:

Drooling Iguana wrote:They've also released the source code to Quake 2 and 3.

Fair enough. I imagine we'll see something moderately fun built from the Q3 code, but it's still not content for the gamers. I'm personally not interested in six-year old source code, I'm interested in content using today's code, and I'd be willing to bet most gamers would enjoy that themselves.

Id doesn't really have any content to release, though. It's their engines that put them ahead of the pack, and they've been reliably releasing those game engines as soon as the next generation comes out.

Drooling Iguana wrote:Id doesn't really have any content to release, though. It's their engines that put them ahead of the pack, and they've been reliably releasing those game engines as soon as the next generation comes out.

No, they really haven't. They've been coasting on Quake 3 for the last, what, six years? Take a look at games made in the last 2-5 years using the Quake 3 Engine. Now look at games made in the last 2-5 years using the Unreal Engine (Splinter Cell 1-3, Raven Shield, Thief 3). There is a clear division in visual quality. Doom 3's engine is good, but it's really not that far ahead graphically compared to the most recent iterations of Unreal. The only thing it really did well as far as I'm concerned is lighting.

Also, how many games are made with the Doom 3 engine? You've got, what, Doom 3, the expansion, and technically this game, which is an update? I don't know of any others. Compare that to the seeming legion of games using progressively up to date Unreal technology.

Which Epic doesn't release.

Drooling Iguana wrote:Which Epic doesn't release.

Uh, yes, they do release it. They just don't make a game for every new version of the Unreal engine. Take a look at the difference in the graphics between Splinter Cell 2 and Splinter Cell 3. They both used the Unreal Engine, yet look at the amazing difference in graphical quality between the two games.

If you look at games that use the Unreal Engine, you will notice that they get better and better graphics as you go, as a rule. Meanwhile, games based on the Quake 3 engine pretty much all look the same, unless someone in the dev house put their own tweaks into it (like Soldier of Fortune, with the gore modeling).

Then where can I download the source code to past versions of the Unreal Engine, the way I can with Id's engines?

What you're forgetting, Hotfoot, is that iD is a pretty small group. John Carmack is not and never has been interested in running an expanding business, he just wants to do the things that interest him, like write new engines or work on rockets. If other people want to license his engine, that's fine, but I get the impression he's not interested in working on dragging an old engine along when he could be working on something new, nor is he interested in what he would percieve as a distraction from the company's main focus (making games, despite the "lol id just makes engines am i rite" cracks) by hiring people solely to update old engines.

I don't think we're looking at limitations of ability and technical prowess so much as we're running into differing business models.

Drooling Iguana wrote:Then where can I download the source code to past versions of the Unreal Engine, the way I can with Id's engines?

You're confusing "release" with "giving away". Quake 4 is being released this month. According to your logic, this means you should get it for free.

As far as I'm concerned, free source code ain't worth shit. I'd much rather have the free game content I get from unreal tournament/unreal, as well as progressively better looking games based on the unreal engine, rather than light-year jumps in quality and the occasional source code release which means, frankly, nothing to me.

Uranium: You have to understand, as a person, I'm glad John Carmack does what he loves. Power to him. As a gamer, I want good, quality games. I got a lot of enjoyment out of UT and UT2004. I don't get nearly as much out of iD releases. Doom 3, while pretty and moderately fun, is ultimately a boring, poorly designed game with a reasonably nice graphics engine. Quake 4, as of right now, promises nothing different except more light and wider open spaces. That doesn't impress me. iD makes sub-par games with above-par graphics. It's pretty much all they do. If John Carmack enjoys that, then fine, he's doing what he loves. It doesn't mean I have to put on rose-tinted glasses when I look at the games his company puts out.

Quake 3 was sub-par. Doom 3 was sub-par. RTCW wasn't even in-house development. Epic was in danger of falling into the same hole with UT2003, but then it picked itself up and dusted it off with UT2004. Wide open areas, claustophobic rooms, vehicles, hell, space combat, all with beautiful (and scalable) graphics. My money says we'll be lucky if there are gun emplacements in Quake 4.

Anyone got minimum requirements yet, by the by?

Doom 3, while pretty and moderately fun, is ultimately a boring, poorly designed game with a reasonably nice graphics engine.

How can something be fun and yet boring at the same time?

It may not be OMG THE SECOND COMING as the hype foretold, but plenty of people got a lot of enjoyment out of playing Doom 3, and there's still a lot of enjoyment being wrung out of Quake 3 (hell, it's still a staple at the LAN parties I go to).

That said, of the two, I have much more respect for Epic, despite the lackluster UT2003. They seem to be doing more things with what they do and put the engines to better use.

First, attacking iD by saying that "all they do" is make sub-par games (Doom 3 and Quake 2 are the closest contenders to that) makes me question the honesty of this statement. Quake 3 is not sub-par just because you did not like it; it was and is a fine game that a lot of people enjoyed. Quake was a fine and popular game. Doom 1 and 2 were excellent games. Wolfenstein 3D was an excellent game. Commander Keen was an excellent game. Do you have a beef with iD or are you just being elitist?

Second, this statement is really what I was addressing. I really think that the reason for this is because Epic and iD operate under different business models. If you have a problem with iD's business model, that's fine, but you should make that clear rather than imply that iD is being stingy by not releasing boatloads of new content for free, when in fact they don't have the resources (a bunch of spare artists on staff to produce new content for old games) to produce that content nor are they interested in producing it.

Also, what are the "legions of games" being made with Unreal Engine?

After doing some further research, I may have to reserve judgement on Quake 4. iD is just producing it. It's Raven Software that is the development house.

Might mean a halfway decent game after all. Maybe.

Uraniun235 wrote:How can something be fun and yet boring at the same time?

Simple. it's moderately fun in that the game itself isn't OMGWTF Horrible, but in the end, it's repetative and boring as a result. It's not really scary, either.

It may not be OMG THE SECOND COMING as the hype foretold, but plenty of people got a lot of enjoyment out of playing Doom 3, and there's still a lot of enjoyment being wrung out of Quake 3 (hell, it's still a staple at the LAN parties I go to).

Goody for them. It's STILL a sub-par game living off the past success of previous titles and the name of the house. Had another company come out with DOOM3, it would have been quickly panned and forgotten.

Quake 3, meanwhile, is laughable. The game was designed as multiplayer only, and shipped with, what, two game modes? Seriously, that's fucking retarded. Needing to BUY an expansion pack to play CTF and other game modes? You've got to be fucking kidding me.

First, attacking iD by saying that "all they do" is make sub-par games (Doom 3 and Quake 2 are the closest contenders to that) makes me question the honesty of this statement. Quake 3 is not sub-par just because you did not like it; it was and is a fine game that a lot of people enjoyed. Quake was a fine and popular game. Doom 1 and 2 were excellent games. Wolfenstein 3D was an excellent game. Commander Keen was an excellent game. Do you have a beef with iD or are you just being elitist?

As far as past successes, those don't count for shit right now. You seriously mean to tell me that you would buy a game tomorrow just because it was by the same team that brought you Commander fucking Keen on your 286? Get real. The trend the company has been in for the last six years makes me seriously doubt they have any sort of real desire to make a fun game anymore. Hell, even this game isn't being made by iD, it's been outsourced to a development house who has the means to make a fun, if not stellar game (Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy, SoF1&2, etc.). iD has become a joke when it comes to game development. I don't see how you can seriously argue otherwise. This isn't about what iD WAS, but what they've BECOME. I won't deny their early games were cool, but everything past Quake 2 has been sub-par. Not bad, not horrible, but below what everyone else is putting out.

Second, this statement is really what I was addressing. I really think that the reason for this is because Epic and iD operate under different business models. If you have a problem with iD's business model, that's fine, but you should make that clear rather than imply that iD is being stingy by not releasing boatloads of new content for free, when in fact they don't have the resources (a bunch of spare artists on staff to produce new content for old games) to produce that content nor are they interested in producing it.

When their business model affects the quality of their games, I find that it's a problem. Both iD and Epic follow similar models, make new engines, sell for money, make occasional games. If Epic were to churn out better games and iD to churn out better graphics, there would be some form of parity here. However, Epic outclasses iD on game quality and engine quality quite regularly. The fact that iD doesn't have a huge staff is in part because they were gutted when Romero left and took a bunch of people with him, and the fact that they don't make huge earth-shattering games anymore. Everyone remembers DOOM, DOOM 2, Quake, and Quake 2. After that, everything went to pot.

Also, what are the "legions of games" being made with Unreal Engine?

Rainbow Six 3, Splinter Cell, Thief 3, Deus Ex 2, Brothers in Arms, the list goes on here. Much as I am loathe to cite wikipedia, they have a very comprehensive list so far.

Drooling Iguana wrote:Then where can I download the source code to past versions of the Unreal Engine, the way I can with Id's engines?

Try here: http://www.fileshack.com/file.x?fid=308

This is for the firts UT engine. When other companies stop licensing Unreal Engine 2 and 2.5 for their games, its a safe bet Epic will release that source code as well.

Neither id nor Epic is going to give away source code when it can still make them money (and Carmack flat out said that in .plan posting of his a while back about the Q3 source).