General Grevious thoughts

[Erik von Nein]

There have been several instances of Jedi using guns, but generally they don't due to an honor code, and the fear that the impersonality of the blaster could making killing to easy and normal, thus opening a gateway to the Dark Side. Or at least that's Jedi dogma.

But, I'm assuming you figured that out before you posted.

But that contradicts them letting their members become fucking fighter pilots! How impersonal can you get? You don't even see the other pilot!

[Noble Ire]

There have been several instances of Jedi using guns, but generally they don't due to an honor code, and the fear that the impersonality of the blaster could making killing to easy and normal, thus opening a gateway to the Dark Side. Or at least that's Jedi dogma.

But, I'm assuming you figured that out before you posted.

But that contradicts them letting their members become fucking fighter pilots! How impersonal can you get? You don't even see the other pilot!

True enough. Either there is some weird distiniction in their philosophy, or the Jedi simply wave their adversion to ranged weaponry during war, and ground generals simply prefer their sabers.

[Stark]

Nobody ever says guns are evil in the movies; just that they're 'random'. Given that Jedi are probably of the opinion that fighting non-Force users is easy enough anyway, and Force users pwnzor blaster users, it's not worth it.

Then the war started, but the Jedi were never very flexible.

[Darth Wong]

There have been several instances of Jedi using guns, but generally they don't due to an honor code, and the fear that the impersonality of the blaster could making killing to easy and normal, thus opening a gateway to the Dark Side. Or at least that's Jedi dogma.

But, I'm assuming you figured that out before you posted.

But that contradicts them letting their members become fucking fighter pilots! How impersonal can you get? You don't even see the other pilot!

True, but there is no practical equivalent to lightsabre battles in space.

[Darth Servo]

There have been several instances of Jedi using guns, but generally they don't due to an honor code, and the fear that the impersonality of the blaster could making killing to easy and normal, thus opening a gateway to the Dark Side. Or at least that's Jedi dogma.

But, I'm assuming you figured that out before you posted.

But that contradicts them letting their members become fucking fighter pilots! How impersonal can you get? You don't even see the other pilot!

Its possible they were only allowed to become fighter pilots when facing a droid army. In TPM, for instance, they took a cruiser ride to Naboo instead of fighters. Of course by that token they should have been allowed to use blasters on the ground too.

[Greymalkin]

Again, your strawmaning.

When did I say that a specific organ was necessary to use the force? Furthermore, what the fuck does Yoda's height have to do with anything?

No, you're just totally missing the point.

Missing what point? That your a dishonest jackass... Why don't you try actually answering the argument - without the fallacies?

[UCBooties]

Missing what point? That your a dishonest jackass... Why don't you try actually answering the argument - without the fallacies?

And why don't you adress the points I made on the first page of the this thread?

[Kurgan]

Didn't these Jedi ever learn how to use guns? Idiots.

There have been several instances of Jedi using guns, but generally they don't due to an honor code, and the fear that the impersonality of the blaster could making killing to easy and normal, thus opening a gateway to the Dark Side. Or at least that's Jedi dogma.

But, I'm assuming you figured that out before you posted.

Is this canon? Or is this just a rationalization for why we don't see more gunplay among Republic era Jedi?

Obi-Wan's comments indicate he feels that Lightsabers are more "civilized" and "elegant" but that may be little more than his personal opinion.

Is blocking blaster bolts to kill any less impersonal? Or do the Jedi feel that this means they technically aren't incuring guilt by killing their enemies directly?

Then again the Jedi may simply be idiots by and large. After all, they also refuse to make use of personal armor or space suites, at least in the prequels. Notice how none of this applies to Luke Skywalker, who isn't under the control of the Old Order!

You just described the most annoying members of the Jedi Academy online community, in that paragraph, incidentally.

[Kurgan]

There have been several instances of Jedi using guns, but generally they don't due to an honor code, and the fear that the impersonality of the blaster could making killing to easy and normal, thus opening a gateway to the Dark Side. Or at least that's Jedi dogma.

But, I'm assuming you figured that out before you posted.

But that contradicts them letting their members become fucking fighter pilots! How impersonal can you get? You don't even see the other pilot!

True, but there is no practical equivalent to lightsabre battles in space.

Space suits and jetpacks my friend... space suits and jetpacks!

Maybe not practical, but "kewl" to be sure.

Game/mod developers and fan fic writers, are you listening?

[Noble Ire]

Is this canon? Or is this just a rationalization for why we don't see more gunplay among Republic era Jedi?

Mostly rationalization, although I do seem to recall a portion in Yoda: DR that might have related to this.

Is blocking blaster bolts to kill any less impersonal? Or do the Jedi feel that this means they technically aren't incuring guilt by killing their enemies directly?

I think the point is, with sabers, you actually have to be up close and personal when you deliever a killing or maiming blow, and thus a Jedi has to feel the pain he is inflicting, even for a good cause, to remind him not to get too carried away (this of course is pretty much extrapolation on my part.)

Then again the Jedi may simply be idiots by and large. After all, they also refuse to make use of personal armor or space suites, at least in the prequels. Notice how none of this applies to Luke Skywalker, who isn't under the control of the Old Order!

But, of course, at least some Jedi wear armor during the war, like Plo Koon and Obi himself. Before the war, Jedi were peace keepers, police. You don't see regular police officers running around in full battle gear, and I would imagine they don't put it on for every distrubance or call, even if it is available. The lightsabers might be an extension of this, an ancient custom, symbol of the peace keeping force, that work fairly well in the role of a Jedi Knight as a protector. In war, the choice is more dubious, but so is leading from the front, and old habits die hard.

[Kurgan]

On the other hand Jedi are not local police forces, they are elite, more like a SWAT team. Do you see SWAT teams going in without at least a kevlar vest? I can see Jedi being sent to diplomatic conferences not being loaded down with gear, but Jedi sent to the Front? Give me a break!

I can see them not being prepared in AOTC, but as of ROTS they have no excuse.

The Jedi don't wear armor in the prequels. In Clone Wars they do, sure (full suits in fact), but I meant the movies (Episodes I-III). They don't even wear helmets!

At best you have EU references to their padded leather outfits and "blaster resistant" capes and such. Nothing on the order of what the non-Jedi soldiers of the Republic or Empire wear...

[nightmare]

Again, your strawmaning.

When did I say that a specific organ was necessary to use the force? Furthermore, what the fuck does Yoda's height have to do with anything?

No, you're just totally missing the point.

Missing what point? That your a dishonest jackass... Why don't you try actually answering the argument - without the fallacies?

The point was that the force isn't located in any single organ, so if you by losing organs reduce in "force power", it must be corrolated to mass. In other words, Yoda would have to be much weaker than any other jedi, and Sidious should eat like a Sumo wrestler to increase his body mass and thereby force power. Also by the same token, force spirits, which totally lack a body, shouldnt' even exist in the first place.

Get it now...idiot?

(I apologize for the late reply to the mods. I have had a lot of hardware problems recently, and flu did nothing to help fix it.)

[Anguirus]

^ Or, it could be related to general health, rather than mass. Anakin's potential goes down after being roasted all over, losing his limbs, sustaining a spinal injury, AND doing permanent damage to his lungs via fumes.

It didn't go down at ALL after he just lost mass (arm). Rather, it was the later combination of injuries that screwed him up. Locked in that suit, he just can't concentrate like he used to.

[Kurgan]

If he's majorly suffering and needs to force to boost is fraily body that would make sense (like Yoda, the Emperor, and Dooku appear to do). I wonder if Vader were a non-force sensitive if his suit would make him superior or inferior in terms of athletic ability to a normal, healthy human of his age and height/weight? Perhaps Lucas has been bitten by his own "biological is superior to tech" brainbug.

I think ultimately that can be explained away as symbolism, but non-SOD we're stuck with a stupid answer. Oh well...

[Anguirus]

I wonder if Vader were a non-force sensitive if his suit would make him superior or inferior in terms of athletic ability to a normal, healthy human of his age and height/weight? Perhaps Lucas has been bitten by his own "biological is superior to tech" brainbug.

I doubt it. Do you think most Kaleesh are better fighters than Grievous?

A non-Force sensitive in a life support suit and all-mechanical limbs is probably much less agile and much slower than a normal human, not to mention in constant pain if his injuries resemble Vader's in their extent. But I'm positive he'd be stronger, just as Vader's artificial limbs are far stronger.

A human with just the four mechanical limbs would clearly be stronger and possibly faster, once he adapted to them. (Of course, it's not really worth the price, is it?)

[Kurgan]

I wonder if Vader were a non-force sensitive if his suit would make him superior or inferior in terms of athletic ability to a normal, healthy human of his age and height/weight? Perhaps Lucas has been bitten by his own "biological is superior to tech" brainbug.

I doubt it. Do you think most Kaleesh are better fighters than Grievous?

I have no clue, but I'm guessing you mean they aren't. But we've never seen Vader in the suit do any physical stunts quite like Grevious can (even if we restrict ourselves to what was shown in ROTS).

A non-Force sensitive in a life support suit and all-mechanical limbs is probably much less agile and much slower than a normal human, not to mention in constant pain if his injuries resemble Vader's in their extent. But I'm positive he'd be stronger, just as Vader's artificial limbs are far stronger.

See that's what I'm wondering. Despite how wonderful their bionic tech is, perhaps it's really inferior to biology... at least if you're still as fleshy as Vader is (compared to Grievous).

A human with just the four mechanical limbs would clearly be stronger and possibly faster, once he adapted to them. (Of course, it's not really worth the price, is it?)

Money is no object in this example. It's a little surprising that Anakin didn't tinker with his suit over the years to improve it, actually...

I know the final scene was iconic and such, but I somehow wish we'd seen a less advanced looking version of the Vader suit (perhaps based on the early concept designs). And forgetting how odd it is that Palpy just happened to have it ready to go (does that mean there's other people running around with Vader suites out there? Because I didn't think Palpy foresaw Vader needing this exact suit...).

[The Silence and I]

To touch on that last point, could the suit have been intended for Palps? Not the limbs of course, but the enclosed and partially armored lifesupport system may have been intended for his use if he couldn't discover the secret to prolonging life before age crippled him.\

Now Vader requires a different size helmet, and mechanical limbs and what not, but with the Emperor's resources building a suit tailored to Vader's body wouldn't take long--provided the plans exist in some form. So if Palps had the basic blueprints floating around for his evential use Vader could have benefitted from that. Take some measurements, download some artificial limb blueprints (these should be easy to find) and tailor to Vader's size, build the custom helmet and lifesupport system, add some cool looking armor and youu've got Vader. Make sense?

[FSTargetDrone]

I know the final scene was iconic and such, but I somehow wish we'd seen a less advanced looking version of the Vader suit (perhaps based on the early concept designs). And forgetting how odd it is that Palpy just happened to have it ready to go (does that mean there's other people running around with Vader suites out there? Because I didn't think Palpy foresaw Vader needing this exact suit...).

Perhaps Palpatine foresaw Anakin needing the suit, so he had it ready ahead of time. I haven't read the novelization or any of the other applicable EU stuff, so maybe that's in there somewhere.

Also, it's possible that the suit could have looked just as it ended up looking even if Anakin hadn't lost most of his limbs. The "pants" at least, seem to be a flexible material. If Anakin hadn't lost his legs, he may have still worn similar-looking leggings.

[UCBooties]

It seemed like the suit was all seperate componants, so excepting perhaps the helmet, perhaps the majority of the componants were existing models of cybernetic replacement, all pulled from the same stock, with a few pieces being custom fabricated on spot.

[nightmare]

^ Or, it could be related to general health, rather than mass. Anakin's potential goes down after being roasted all over, losing his limbs, sustaining a spinal injury, AND doing permanent damage to his lungs via fumes.

It didn't go down at ALL after he just lost mass (arm). Rather, it was the later combination of injuries that screwed him up. Locked in that suit, he just can't concentrate like he used to.

I seem to recall that the novelization (which I haven't read) suggests that it was more the case of self-confidence problems. There should be more on the subject in this forum.

[Spetulhu]

There have been several instances of Jedi using guns, but generally they don't due to an honor code, and the fear that the impersonality of the blaster could making killing to easy and normal, thus opening a gateway to the Dark Side. Or at least that's Jedi dogma.

But, I'm assuming you figured that out before you posted.

But that contradicts them letting their members become fucking fighter pilots! How impersonal can you get? You don't even see the other pilot!

Its possible they were only allowed to become fighter pilots when facing a droid army. In TPM, for instance, they took a cruiser ride to Naboo instead of fighters. Of course by that token they should have been allowed to use blasters on the ground too.

That may have to do with how we think of old fighter aces in real life. It used to be an honorable way of fighting, two men trying to get the other in their sights. Limited fuel and ammunition makes every mistake potentially fatal. You don't see the face of your opponent, but it's certainly more personal than gunning down massed infantry with a machine gun.

Star Wars fighters are powerful things, but they still try to shoot each other with direct fire weaponry. One man trying to outwit and outmanuevre another man. That's honorable combat, isn't it?

[Battlehymn Republic]

That also explains why they don't just bite the bullet and use droids to do all of the piloting.

[Anguirus]

Money is no object in this example

I sort of meant the price of hacking all of one's own limbs off.

Last I heard, the helmet is retrofitted from an old Sith artifact Palpatine had lying around, and the rest of the components are standard.

And I'm damn glad that they used the "final" Vader suit as the first one, because on opening day a packed theatre all virtually wet their pants at the sight of it. The mood in there was ELECTRIC. The EU can explain details fine...film exists for moments like the end of RotS.

[Kurgan]

Perhaps Palpatine foresaw Anakin needing the suit, so he had it ready ahead of time. I haven't read the novelization or any of the other applicable EU stuff, so maybe that's in there somewhere.

Perhaps he did. But that means he knew "all along" that Anakin would have a son that he'd try to train as an apprentice (Palpy would try to train him, that is), and Vader himself was just a "temporary" one he'd settle for until that son came along. And yet it seems like a major revelation that Luke exists in ESB to both of them, leading to obsession. And if Palpy knew about Luke (and Leia!) all this time wouldn't he have done something about it, rather than wait for them to fall in with Obi-Wan and the Rebellion? Seems Palpy could have done a lot better planning if he really knew all this in advance. It looked to me like he was more or less making it up as he went along. He seemed a bit puzzled when he sensed that "Anakin is in danger" in ROTS.

Oh well, it just strikes me as odd. I'm not sure there's a satisfactory answer to this plot hole, unless this Vader suit isn't unique after all (which means perhaps there are Vader look-alikes wandering the halls of the geriatric wards or old soldier's homes of the galaxy).

Also, it's possible that the suit could have looked just as it ended up looking even if Anakin hadn't lost most of his limbs. The "pants" at least, seem to be a flexible material. If Anakin hadn't lost his legs, he may have still worn similar-looking leggings.

True, it could have been like a customized suit of armor. We know there's many types of Stormtrooper armor besides the usual regular and Scout varieties, from the space suits worn by the TIE Pilots, to that vest and helmet combo that General Veers wears, to the Royal Guards outfits. In the early scripts it's supposed to be a space suit, and it's just big and black because he's a big shot villian and makes him stand out from the rest (supposed to strike fear into the hearts of his enemies).

But the suit is so well integrated and apparently needed no modifications over the years (except suddenly the helmet became asymetrical, maybe he got hit in the face and it got warped) and its so friggin' shiny... I dunno, it's still all too convenient. Not that much time seems to pass from the time he's brought in to the time he rises as Vader (overnight?).

[Kurgan]

Money is no object in this example

I sort of meant the price of hacking all of one's own limbs off.

Last I heard, the helmet is retrofitted from an old Sith artifact Palpatine had lying around, and the rest of the components are standard.

And I'm damn glad that they used the "final" Vader suit as the first one, because on opening day a packed theatre all virtually wet their pants at the sight of it. The mood in there was ELECTRIC. The EU can explain details fine...film exists for moments like the end of RotS.

Well, I'm sure the "wow" effect is definately there. It's the same for the Tantive IV and the Death Star. How many of us cheered (out loud or in our geek hearts) when we saw those "reminders of what is to come"?

But then we went home and thought more about it and then we realized how "inaccurate" those designs were compared to what's in ANH, and we realized the implications of the time differences and the plot holes they create. So it seems Lucas sacrificed believability for the sake of wow-ness (and when I say "believability" I mean for any geeks like us who thought about it for awhile... most casual fans probably didn't even care that it all didn't jibe, just watch the movie and have fun).

Anyway, fair enough about the "price." I thought you just meant he'd be short on change to get the best suit the Empire could buy for him. Once his limbs are hacked off he has little choice... but then what's to stop him from insisting on an upgrade after he's back on his feet (so to speak).

I don't see that he's stuck inside it for the rest of his life with no chance to make adjustments. Thus we'd assume it was either perfect from the start or else something weird like he was "punishing himself" for the death of Padme...