Although the Yudas goat example exists, the fact is that any race that could do something equiring such vast amounts of energy could just as easily enslave us and put us into breeding/force feeding pens.
And it's even easier when we give up all possible defenses.
We don't give them up, they vaporize every weapon on earth more lethal than a fencing sword or kitchen knife.
How do you propose fighting that? A Xelee nightflyer out of our asses?
This alone shows there actions are suspect.
If they wanted us as cattle, it's in their best interests to have us healthy and expanding. More cattle means more of whatever the hell they want us for.
Isn't it easier then to take off eevry religous person on earth and represent themselves as gods to them, and leave the troublesome Inteligentsia either for brainwashing or death, as well as not bothering with the poor/starving/sick of the 3d world?[/quote]
Still means cattle. Moo
Gandalf wrote:
Emissary of a people capable and willing to brainwash? Doesn't that ring an alarm bell?
Who said anything about brainwashing, if someone told you that you could bring humanity to a higher level, eliminate poverty/sickness/disease and have fun at the monkeys worrying about you possibly wanting them for food/slaves when you can create planets-
Wouldn't you?
I belive the removal of personality and memories upon crossing a poorly defined line = brainwashing. Going over your post it seems to say if I took 10 bucks BOOM dead me.
Ghost rider wrote:
Too bad, you haven't given reason why the rest of us should be.
The fact that they've eliminated disease, poverty, given us space travel and a free second earth/moon base, and are allowing us to exist without any of their interference or benefits if we want?
Yeah and most dictators did alot of good when they came to power. But in the end the price just isn't worth it.
"The real ideological schism in America is not Republican vs Democrat; it is North vs South, Urban vs Rural, and it has been since the 19th century."
-Mike Wong
What's remarkable about this scenario is that it is (perhaps inadvertently) almost identical to the promised "God's Kingdom" under Christianity as prophesied in the Book of Revelation. Actually, it's a bit better, since these aliens have presumably fewer arbitrary rules you must obey. So any Christian who believes in the Rapture etc. yet would oppose this hypothetical scenario is either lying or hypocritical without realizing it.
As for "trusting" the aliens, that's a complete thread hijack which is obviously motivated by people not wanting to make a decision in this case. After all, these aliens clearly have such great power that it really doesn't matter whether you trust them or not. If they have some malevolent purpose, there ain't a damned thing you can do about it. Suppose you say no, and decide to go to the alternate planet where none of these rules apply. Who is going to take you there? Oh yeah, these same aliens. If it turns out they're harvesting us for food or something, guess what happens to the people who say they want to be taken off-world first, genius. So saying you wouldn't "trust" them is utterly pointless and it's nothing more than an evasion of the thread's dilemma.
I'd stay under this society. It sounds considerably better than the one we have now, and I don't plan on committing any major crimes.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
What's remarkable about this scenario is that it is (perhaps inadvertently) almost identical to the promised "God's Kingdom" under Christianity as prophesied in the Book of Revelation. Actually, it's a bit better, since these aliens have presumably fewer arbitrary rules you must obey. So any Christian who believes in the Rapture etc. yet would oppose this hypothetical scenario is either lying or hypocritical without realizing it.
The definition of Christian is a very broad one in this day and age. I pray as a Christian and go to Christian services, I also happen to have a Christian icon in my room and I do not believe that God would come down and wontonly stomp people, such as yourself, who have "defied" him (I used denied in inverted commas because I think its a nonsense term in this case, its like saying Atheists defy the power of Darth Vader. They don't believe so how could they be defying?). There are Christians who have accpeted women and homosexuals into their clergy and Christians who would not dream of using the Bible to justify the awful racism that indeed I know from reading your site that you had to endure.
The reason I felt like defending the term "Christian" in such a way is because the reply is often "They are not real Christians." All that that reply does is push people further away from a future where churches can be more tolerant and liberal.
"Yeah, funny how that works - you giving hungry people food they vote for you. You give homeless people shelter they vote for you. You give the unemployed a job they vote for you.
Maybe if the conservative ideology put a roof overhead, food on the table, and employed the downtrodden the poor folk would be all for it, too". - Broomstick
Yeah, I'd be game for the scenario. If I'm basically living like I am now, but without the crime, or with a significantly reduced probability of being a victim, the world is cleaner, rainforests and coral reefs prospering, . . . . I think it would be a great existance.
If I'm food at some point later, at least I had some good living.
This actually reminds me of hypothetical I've been thinking about. Maybe I'll get around to starting that thread at some point.
Anyway, DEATH, as the omnipotent, all-knowing master of this scenario you could declare if or if not the alien(s) is being truthful, and it would remove any ambiguity (unless you want that ambiguity).
Frankly, this whole thing doesn't sound bad at all (reminds me a bit of descriptions of the Culture, really, right down to "you can leave if you want to"). My only question would be just how one is defining "negligible crimes." I mean, I can see "Death of Personality" being reasonable for crimes like murder, rape, or severe assault, but it still seems very draconian for lesser transgressions. The idea that stealing something merits effective death even in a society where there is no want doesn't make sense to me; if anything stealing would be even less of crime than it is now, because it hurts the victim less (since there's no need).
Is it a crime to try and learn the truth? Is it a sin to search for those things which you fear? My purpose in this world is knowledge, and the dissemination of it. And it is I who is to restore the fruits of my labors to the entire world. Wake up! Don’t be afraid of knowledge! Humans who loose the capacity to think become creatures whose existence has no value. Think, you humans who are split into two worlds! Unless you want the gulf between humans to expand into oblivion,YOU MUST THINK!- Schwarzwald
One question that I have is what would happen if we say no? Would they leave us alone? We may not have a choice really if these aliens are really that powerful.....I mean seriously, how are we going to fight back, with a piece of wood with a couple of nails in it? Really angry words?
Other than that, it does sound like a pretty nice world to live in--without disease, and a new planet....It seems like a pretty good exchange, why not?
Besides, if they need us for food, theres nothing we can do about it anyway...
keep on tumblin, just keep tumblin
TUMBLE ON MY FRIENDS!!!!
"And the trogdor comes in the night...."
"Not this night he doesn"t!!!....um Come in the night!!!um... Trogdor!!!"
-Vin Diesel was the person screaming when Boba Fett died.
-Vin Diesel will grant you three wishes if you can guess Yoda's last name.
-Vin Diesel is the only one to use all 2 gigabytes of Gmail space.
-Vin Diesel is Darth Vader's father.
Does this scenario remind anyone else of the Kanamit from "To Serve Man"?
Well, with the dilemma that Wong pointed out, I don't suppose I'd have any choice but to stay. I'd feel that responsible to my family (assuming I had one) even in a "perfect" world. If I just got bored to tears, I suppose I"d gve the alternate Earth a whirl.
In either case, I'd do as much research on these aliens as humanly possible, both out of interest and out of concern.
DEATH wrote:And has just cured every illness/didease in existence, has restored the rain forests, has given humanity acces to space needles, a self sustaining moon base, and is offering transport to a world where you can ddevelope without intefrerence if you wish or to a virgin earth if you want to start a new society using this technology.
Also you're saying that you'd prefer the situation where the 3d world was still hungry/starving/dying etc...
In itself, no. When everything is run by some form of autocrat who speaks through an avatar like the Wizard of Oz... Yes. Because frankly, it's far too good to be true. If there's any way to get away from such apparent C'tan clones, I'm doing it. The fact that it's prepared to excecute (Death of Personality is death) anyone who upsets its society is a definate harbinger of worse things coming up - what do you think will happen when someone dissents against this creature with no check on its power?
Of course, your scenario is poorly constructed. It'd be better if you could say, will yourself back to the original timeline and away from any potential retaliation, as Wong points out, relying on the god for moving you away isn't too smart.
Last edited by NecronLord on 2005-11-16 05:57pm, edited 3 times in total.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
Darth Wong wrote:So any Christian who believes in the Rapture etc. yet would oppose this hypothetical scenario is either lying or hypocritical without realizing it.
I don't see how you could claim this without at least a BIT of bullshit behind it. The aliens may be near-omnipotent, but they still aren't God. Christians worship God, not godlike beings. That's why satan's out (Satan and God are, after all, very much alike). Falling in with these creatures would also mean damnation to hell for any potential children, as you couldn't really teach them to believe in God anyways.
The situations are semi-similar, but the creatures, by virtue of not being God, aren't really the same, from a Christian standpoint. Or so I'd imagine. Why would you think the situations would be the same? Planes and birds can both fly, but planes aren't birds, and you can like birds without liking planes. Similarity doesn't mean equality.
Zero132132 wrote:I don't see how you could claim this without at least a BIT of bullshit behind it. The aliens may be near-omnipotent, but they still aren't God. Christians worship God, not godlike beings.
[...]
The situations are semi-similar, but the creatures, by virtue of not being God, aren't really the same, from a Christian standpoint.
The biblical god is only reffered to as all-powerful in the psalms, which are songs/poems praising him. There are things in the book he cannot do. This being is actually far more capable, it can destroy iron chariots.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
Zero132132 wrote:I don't see how you could claim this without at least a BIT of bullshit behind it. The aliens may be near-omnipotent, but they still aren't God. Christians worship God, not godlike beings.
[...]
The situations are semi-similar, but the creatures, by virtue of not being God, aren't really the same, from a Christian standpoint.
The biblical god is only reffered to as all-powerful in the psalms, which are songs/poems praising him. There are things in the book he cannot do. This being is actually far more capable, it can destroy iron chariots.
Where is it stated anywhere that these beings can destroy iron chariots? It's shown that they apparently can vaporize weapons, and minds, but I see no mention of chariots anywhere in the passage.
Seriously, you know better then to think the bible contains the entirety of the christian belief system, and you also ought to know that many bits of the bible probably aren't included in the belief system by most of them. Whether God's omnipotent or not, he still eventually decides what happens to our souls for eternity, so these creatures would still be less important, from a christian perspective, then God. After all, fixing the world matters not, when God will have your soul for all eternity afterwards.
A noble sentiment, but please explain why.
_________________
By now my response to this has been covered by others, but mainly twofold: I wan't control over my life, and two: I feel the need to have a counter to this "threat" to maintain balance in the universe.
I join the resistance. Within a month someone will have hacked their technology and made a weapon/defense out of it. Within a year they'll wish they'd never tried to take away our freedom.
darthdavid wrote:I join the resistance. Within a month someone will have hacked their technology and made a weapon/defense out of it. Within a year they'll wish they'd never tried to take away our freedom.
You're wrong. By the end of the month, all people in said resistance would be living blissful pathetic lives, unknowing of the fact that they had ever comitted such horrors. Mindwipe does strange things. No martyrs, just new people under old faces.
darthdavid wrote:I join the resistance. Within a month someone will have hacked their technology and made a weapon/defense out of it. Within a year they'll wish they'd never tried to take away our freedom.
You're wrong. By the end of the month, all people in said resistance would be living blissful pathetic lives, unknowing of the fact that they had ever comitted such horrors. Mindwipe does strange things. No martyrs, just new people under old faces.
But they're giving us all this new tech and there are a couple billion people on earth. They can't keep it's inner workings a secret forever and then it's only a matter of time till someone thinks of a counter to it. The month was just hyperbole.
darthdavid wrote:I join the resistance. Within a month someone will have hacked their technology and made a weapon/defense out of it. Within a year they'll wish they'd never tried to take away our freedom.
You're wrong. By the end of the month, all people in said resistance would be living blissful pathetic lives, unknowing of the fact that they had ever comitted such horrors. Mindwipe does strange things. No martyrs, just new people under old faces.
But they're giving us all this new tech and there are a couple billion people on earth. They can't keep it's inner workings a secret forever and then it's only a matter of time till someone thinks of a counter to it. The month was just hyperbole.
If you went to the Bronze Age with modern tanks, machine guns, and helicopters, how long would it take for them to "think of a counter" for them?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
With the entire new world they'd be creating, I'm sure that only my distant descendents would even begin to get bored, and then they have the option to leave.
So fuck yes, I'd be up for this.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
Zero132132 wrote:Seriously, you know better then to think the bible contains the entirety of the christian belief system,
There are huge numbers of Christians who profess to be biblical literalists.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
Zero132132 wrote:
You're wrong. By the end of the month, all people in said resistance would be living blissful pathetic lives, unknowing of the fact that they had ever comitted such horrors. Mindwipe does strange things. No martyrs, just new people under old faces.
But they're giving us all this new tech and there are a couple billion people on earth. They can't keep it's inner workings a secret forever and then it's only a matter of time till someone thinks of a counter to it. The month was just hyperbole.
If you went to the Bronze Age with modern tanks, machine guns, and helicopters, how long would it take for them to "think of a counter" for them?
I think you're understating it, the amount of energyu to create a planet over night or control of genetics to eliminate every disiease of a carbon based species overnight or control of reality to findand destroy every weapon in existence is roughly between that of the Culture and the roman empire.
Photography Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
Zero132132 wrote:Seriously, you know better then to think the bible contains the entirety of the christian belief system,
There are huge numbers of Christians who profess to be biblical literalists.
But they'll still hold positions on things that aren't in the bible, and claim these positions to be religious in nature, indicating that even if much is outlined in the bible, not all things that Christians believe are outlined. I wasn't saying that the bible was contradictory to anything that many Christians believed (although that's true too), I was saying that the bible doesn't contain ALL information that most christians believe.
