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Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote: You act as though I am deliberately altering what I saw in the movie to attempt to minimize the scale of Star Trek. Please explain to me why YOU think there were only 7 ships waiting for the E-E.

I believe thatBattle Group Alpha was assigned to provide assistance to the Enterprise if Shinzon came after Picard instead of going directly for Earth.

After going over things with SF command, Picard thought that the only hope for Earth was if Shinzon went after him first. That is, in fact, what happened. Battle Group Alpha should have showed up with more ships than that, if it were truly their only hope.

Red herring. I never talked about the Empire in this thread. In any case, the grand fleets assembled during times of war have been pathetically small compared to Death SQUADRON, which consisted of an Executor class ship, five ISD's, and according to the novelization, twenty smaller capital ships. With the fighters (the way that SF counts its ships) that is more SHIPS than the UFP even claimed to have in "Sacrifice of Angels." And Death Squadron is a SQUADRON. It is not a fleet. The group of ships in Nemesis was referred to by several characters (including Data) as being a fleet. According to the astrometrics lab, it was classified officially as a Federation Battle Group. A battle group is larger than a squadron.

Though in the film the only support craft we saw were various shuttles and fighters.....but it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Why did you bring it up, then? Incidentally your cop-out excuse is laughable, since the novelization is canon in SW. Even DarkStar could not debate this point. Your red-herring was originally bad enough. Now you ARE altering SW canon to fit your self-delusional view of the two universes.

Master of Ossus wrote:
After going over things with SF command, Picard thought that the only hope for Earth was if Shinzon went after him first. That is, in fact, what happened. Battle Group Alpha should have showed up with more ships than that, if it were truly their only hope.

How many more do you think it needs to show up with? Do you think that the Scimitar could have repelled an attack from Battle Group Alpha and the Enterprise?

Why did you bring it up, then? Incidentally your cop-out excuse is laughable, since the novelization is canon in SW. Even DarkStar could not debate this point. Your red-herring was originally bad enough. Now you ARE altering SW canon to fit your self-delusional view of the two universes.

I brought it up because the film contradicts the novel. We did not see one smaller capital ship in ESB at anytime. I was under the impression that if novels contradict the film then the novels are wrong.....surely you could comprehend this? And it wasn't my red herring either....jesus christ.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:
After going over things with SF command, Picard thought that the only hope for Earth was if Shinzon went after him first. That is, in fact, what happened. Battle Group Alpha should have showed up with more ships than that, if it were truly their only hope.

How many more do you think it needs to show up with? Do you think that the Scimitar could have repelled an attack from Battle Group Alpha and the Enterprise?

The Scimitar should have been able to repel such an attack. It is irrelevent how many more I think they needed. They should have sent everything they have. They have faced a similar threat against Earth a few times in the past, and they responded the way they should have in each of those occasions. In BoBW, they were faced with a Borg invasion, and they responded by moving all of their possible ships to the area. In this case, the fleet should have responded in a similar manner. Instead we saw only seven ships. Why was this, if the UFP has hundreds or thousands of vessels?

Why did you bring it up, then? Incidentally your cop-out excuse is laughable, since the novelization is canon in SW. Even DarkStar could not debate this point. Your red-herring was originally bad enough. Now you ARE altering SW canon to fit your self-delusional view of the two universes.

I brought it up because the film contradicts the novel. We did not see one smaller capital ship in ESB at anytime. I was under the impression that if novels contradict the film then the novels are wrong.....surely you could comprehend this?

That is not a contradiction. Your interpretation of it contradicts the novel and the film. Concession accepted.

And it wasn't my red herring either....jesus christ.

Sure it was. It became your red-herring when you continued to use it in a debate after I had already pointed out its status as a red herring. Who actually began the debate on the subject is irrelevent, particularly since ALI has obviously dropped the debate on this subject. Your perpetuation of the red-herring is no different from his original creation of it.

Master of Ossus wrote:
The Scimitar should have been able to repel such an attack. It is irrelevent how many more I think they needed. They should have sent everything they have. They have faced a similar threat against Earth a few times in the past, and they responded the way they should have in each of those occasions. In BoBW, they were faced with a Borg invasion, and they responded by moving all of their possible ships to the area. In this case, the fleet should have responded in a similar manner. Instead we saw only seven ships. Why was this, if the UFP has hundreds or thousands of vessels?

Oh I see so it's really a matter of opinion. For some strange reason you think this ship is worth the threat level of a Borg Cube, and further more your using a battle group as an example of Federation fleet strength...when we know from DS9 that their fleets range into the hundreds. The 7th fleet for example.

That is not a contradiction. Your interpretation of it contradicts the novel and the film. Concession accepted.

No evidence at how my interpretation is wrong. Concession Accepted.

ESB Novel talks about support ships
vs.
ESB Film with visual canon that shows no support ships at anytime.

Sure it was. It became your red-herring when you continued to use it in a debate after I had already pointed out its status as a red herring. Who actually began the debate on the subject is irrelevent, particularly since ALI has obviously dropped the debate on this subject. Your perpetuation of the red-herring is no different from his original creation of it.

Bullshit.....I was attacking your claim that the Death Squadron has twenty smaller capital ships.(Where the fuck are these twenty capital ships in the ESB film?) Does the novel state that they were kept with the holds of the SSD?

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:
The Scimitar should have been able to repel such an attack. It is irrelevent how many more I think they needed. They should have sent everything they have. They have faced a similar threat against Earth a few times in the past, and they responded the way they should have in each of those occasions. In BoBW, they were faced with a Borg invasion, and they responded by moving all of their possible ships to the area. In this case, the fleet should have responded in a similar manner. Instead we saw only seven ships. Why was this, if the UFP has hundreds or thousands of vessels?

Oh I see so it's really a matter of opinion. For some strange reason you think this ship is worth the threat level of a Borg Cube, and further more your using a battle group as an example of Federation fleet strength...when we know from DS9 that their fleets range into the hundreds. The 7th fleet for example.

LMAO! This is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. Let's see, the Borg cube threatened to assimilate Earth. It could be opposed, and severely damaged by a single GCS. It was considered a threat so great that they even thought about asking the Romulans for help, but instead engaged the vessel with a fleet of about 40 ships, losing the vast majority of them. The Scimitar threatens to KILL everyone on Earth in a matter of minutes. It cannot be detected, and therefore it cannot be fought against. If anything, the Scimitar is a greater threat to the UFP. Besides, even if the Scimitar had not been in the equation, SF should have been gathering more ships than that to deal with the coup in the Romulan Empire. This is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of policy. If there was a coup in Iraq, do you think that the US would praise Allah and leave before they knew what was going on, or even knew anything about the new government and its leaders? SF admitted to knowing absolutely nothing about Shinzon, yet they could only muster seven ships to guard their borders against Romulan aggression. That is a pathetic showing. Apparently, following the Dominion War, a vast number of starships were mothballed and their crews discharged. That is the only possible explanation for this ridiculous lack of concern.

That is not a contradiction. Your interpretation of it contradicts the novel and the film. Concession accepted.

No evidence at how my interpretation is wrong. Concession Accepted.

ESB Novel talks about support ships
vs.
ESB Film with visual canon that shows no support ships at anytime.

Perfect imitation of DarkStar, who told me that the novel statements regarding shields on LAAT's were bunk because of their inappearance in the movie. Too bad it doesn't work. Just because something does not happen in the film does not mean that it does not happen in the universe, moron. Think about it. Did the Enterprise magically transport itself back to stardock in Nemesis? Of course not. It must have been towed there, or it managed to limp there itself. The fact that the trip was not shown in the film does not mean that it did not happen. How can you not understand this?

Sure it was. It became your red-herring when you continued to use it in a debate after I had already pointed out its status as a red herring. Who actually began the debate on the subject is irrelevent, particularly since ALI has obviously dropped the debate on this subject. Your perpetuation of the red-herring is no different from his original creation of it.

Bullshit.....I was attacking your claim that the Death Squadron has twenty smaller capital ships.(Where the fuck are these twenty capital ships in the ESB film?) Does the novel state that they were kept with the holds of the SSD?

[/quote]

You are a complete idiot for not understanding this. The novel reveals that they were there, so they must have been there but off-screen. You yourself admitted during your post on this matter that this was not relevent to the thread, so stop bringing it up. Start your own thread, in which you actually understand what is going on, first, and then we can debate it. Your inability to recognize the simple facts of the matter is laughable.

ALI_G wrote:

SirNitram wrote:Given the energy density of something as powerful as an ISD, no, the tonnage would not equalize things.

I don't think anyone here is going to say that Death Fleet would have to break a sweat against the Federation fleet, but the relative sizes and ages of the Empires means that such a contest should be as one sided as the outcome would actually be.

Bingo! Only a hardcore Trekkie could possibly think otherwise...

Master of Ossus wrote:
LMAO! This is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. Let's see, the Borg cube threatened to assimilate Earth. It could be opposed, and severely damaged by a single GCS. It was considered a threat so great that they even thought about asking the Romulans for help, but instead engaged the vessel with a fleet of about 40 ships, losing the vast majority of them. The Scimitar threatens to KILL everyone on Earth in a matter of minutes. It cannot be detected, and therefore it cannot be fought against. If anything, the Scimitar is a greater threat to the UFP. Besides, even if the Scimitar had not been in the equation, SF should have been gathering more ships than that to deal with the coup in the Romulan Empire. This is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of policy. If there was a coup in Iraq, do you think that the US would praise Allah and leave before they knew what was going on, or even knew anything about the new government and its leaders? SF admitted to knowing absolutely nothing about Shinzon, yet they could only muster seven ships to guard their borders against Romulan aggression. That is a pathetic showing. Apparently, following the Dominion War, a vast number of starships were mothballed and their crews discharged. That is the only possible explanation for this ridiculous lack of concern.

I would think that sending the larger portion of the fleet to Earth would have been the strategy, just in case Shinzon did not go after Picard. They sent the E-E reinforcements of seven ships IIRC just in case he did.

Perfect imitation of DarkStar, who told me that the novel statements regarding shields on LAAT's were bunk because of their inappearance in the movie. Too bad it doesn't work. Just because something does not happen in the film does not mean that it does not happen in the universe, moron. Think about it. Did the Enterprise magically transport itself back to stardock in Nemesis? Of course not. It must have been towed there, or it managed to limp there itself. The fact that the trip was not shown in the film does not mean that it did not happen. How can you not understand this?

That's very different and you know it.

LAATs w/ shields - Is not contradicted because we never saw the shields in action thus the novel statement remains valid.

Death Squadron w/ support ships - Is contradicted because we did see the Death Squadron.....several times throughout the movie. However, I guess it is possible that they were out on picket duty far away from the Death Squadron......does the novel indicate this? Does the novel indicate that they were maybe being held in the holds of the SSD?

You are a complete idiot for not understanding this. The novel reveals that they were there, so they must have been there but off-screen. You yourself admitted during your post on this matter that this was not relevent to the thread, so stop bringing it up. Start your own thread, in which you actually understand what is going on, first, and then we can debate it. Your inability to recognize the simple facts of the matter is laughable.

This is why I asked if the novel stated that the support ships were off away from the fleet or in the holds of the SSD.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:I would think that sending the larger portion of the fleet to Earth would have been the strategy, just in case Shinzon did not go after Picard. They sent the E-E reinforcements of seven ships IIRC just in case he did.

Even after talking to SF command, Picard thought that their only chance was if Shinzon came after him, first. I take that as clear evidence that they have no chance of detecting the Scimitar, unless he was forced to attack a particular ship.

LAATs w/ shields - Is not contradicted because we never saw the shields in action thus the novel statement remains valid.

We never saw the picket ships in action, either. Thus the novel statement remains valid.

Death Squadron w/ support ships - Is contradicted because we did see the Death Squadron.....several times throughout the movie. However, I guess it is possible that they were out on picket duty far away from the Death Squadron......does the novel indicate this? Does the novel indicate that they were maybe being held in the holds of the SSD?

The novel never indicates that the ships were stored in the hold, but I'm curious as to when you believe that we saw all five ISD's and the SSD at the same time. In any case, it makes reference to them being used to sweep the asteroid field in pursuit of the Falcon.

Master of Ossus wrote:
Even after talking to SF command, Picard thought that their only chance was if Shinzon came after him, first. I take that as clear evidence that they have no chance of detecting the Scimitar, unless he was forced to attack a particular ship.

Yes, Picard said he was betting on it. That's why they were trying to rendezvous with the Battle Group. However, on the off chance that Shinzon didn't come after Picard Starfleet still needed to at least try and protect Earth. Setting up massive tachyon detection grids for example....doing whatever they can.

We never saw the picket ships in action, either. Thus the novel statement remains valid.

In my opinion it is a bit different. Your talking about an invisble field vs. ships that are very much visible.

The novel never indicates that the ships were stored in the hold, but I'm curious as to when you believe that we saw all five ISD's and the SSD at the same time. In any case, it makes reference to them being used to sweep the asteroid field in pursuit of the Falcon.

We saw at least one ISD that is enough for me. Seeing at least one picket ship would have been enough. However, I conceed.

jegs2 wrote:

ALI_G wrote:

SirNitram wrote:Given the energy density of something as powerful as an ISD, no, the tonnage would not equalize things.

I don't think anyone here is going to say that Death Fleet would have to break a sweat against the Federation fleet, but the relative sizes and ages of the Empires means that such a contest should be as one sided as the outcome would actually be.

Bingo! Only a hardcore Trekkie could possibly think otherwise...

WTF?! Firstly, I am a FIVER. Secondly, we have already seen that by 2900 the Federation spans the galaxy and can manipulate time at will, and thirdly why on earth has everyone got such a bug up their arse? It's annoying when people start flaming and calling names in a thread that was otherwise civilised.

ALI_G wrote:

jegs2 wrote:

ALI_G wrote:I don't think anyone here is going to say that Death Fleet would have to break a sweat against the Federation fleet, but the relative sizes and ages of the Empires means that such a contest should be as one sided as the outcome would actually be.

Bingo! Only a hardcore Trekkie could possibly think otherwise...

WTF?! Firstly, I am a FIVER. Secondly, we have already seen that by 2900 the Federation spans the galaxy and can manipulate time at will, and thirdly why on earth has everyone got such a bug up their arse? It's annoying when people start flaming and calling names in a thread that was otherwise civilised.

Calm down, both of you. I don't think that he called you a Trekkie. He said that you were correct, and that only a hard-core Trekkie could think he was wrong.

Having said that, the 29th century UFP descendant cannot possibly span the entire galaxy, because we know that there are also 29th century Borg drones.

Master of Ossus wrote:Having said that, the 29th century UFP descendant cannot possibly span the entire galaxy, because we know that there are also 29th century Borg drones.

Actually, there are not 29th century Borg Drones. The quote or reference in question is to do with One when he used a combination of 29th century technology (mobile emiter) and 24th century technology (voyager) along with 24th century borg technology. Janeway referred to him IIRC as a 29th century Borg Drone because of his utilizing the mobile emiter technology. Other then that, there is no direct or even indirect evidence indicating that the Borg still exist that far into the future.

Important note for ALI_G and anybody else who responds to the word "Trekkie" by saying "but I'm a Fiver!": it doesn't matter what allegiance you claim to have.

If you say something like (for example) "the DS superlaser would bounce off a Federation nav deflector" or "Starfleet has 30,000 capships", that is a stupid Trekkie argument. You may say you're not a Trekkie, but it REALLY DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER WHAT YOU CLAIM TO BE, IF YOU ARE MAKING TREKKIE ARGUMENTS.

We judge the argument, not the man. Don't get it backwards; nobody here gives a flying fuck what you claim to be; they judge the words coming out of your mouth.

ALI_G wrote:

jegs2 wrote:

ALI_G wrote:I don't think anyone here is going to say that Death Fleet would have to break a sweat against the Federation fleet, but the relative sizes and ages of the Empires means that such a contest should be as one sided as the outcome would actually be.

Bingo! Only a hardcore Trekkie could possibly think otherwise...

WTF?! Firstly, I am a FIVER. Secondly, we have already seen that by 2900 the Federation spans the galaxy and can manipulate time at will, and thirdly why on earth has everyone got such a bug up their arse? It's annoying when people start flaming and calling names in a thread that was otherwise civilised.

I was saying that you were correct. However, I can flame you if you so desire...

Alyeska wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:Having said that, the 29th century UFP descendant cannot possibly span the entire galaxy, because we know that there are also 29th century Borg drones.

Actually, there are not 29th century Borg Drones. The quote or reference in question is to do with One when he used a combination of 29th century technology (mobile emiter) and 24th century technology (voyager) along with 24th century borg technology. Janeway referred to him IIRC as a 29th century Borg Drone because of his utilizing the mobile emiter technology. Other then that, there is no direct or even indirect evidence indicating that the Borg still exist that far into the future.

Hmmm... I vaguely remember that. Sorry about that, everyone. Alyeska is correct, as he almost always is with regards to ST trivia and stuff.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Alyeska wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:Having said that, the 29th century UFP descendant cannot possibly span the entire galaxy, because we know that there are also 29th century Borg drones.

Actually, there are not 29th century Borg Drones. The quote or reference in question is to do with One when he used a combination of 29th century technology (mobile emiter) and 24th century technology (voyager) along with 24th century borg technology. Janeway referred to him IIRC as a 29th century Borg Drone because of his utilizing the mobile emiter technology. Other then that, there is no direct or even indirect evidence indicating that the Borg still exist that far into the future.

Hmmm... I vaguely remember that. Sorry about that, everyone. Alyeska is correct, as he almost always is with regards to ST trivia and stuff.

Always a nice thing to hear

I DO make mistakes, though I usually own up to them when I realize said mistakes.

Then again, future timelines in Trek are meaningless because they don't necessarily come true. Look at "All Good Things", and compare its future timeline with ST:Nemesis.

AdmiralKanos wrote:Then again, future timelines in Trek are meaningless because they don't necessarily come true. Look at "All Good Things", and compare its future timeline with ST:Nemesis.

Indeed, however its pretty clear that Q was having fun because Picard was carrying memory through the time lines AND the old time line was different. Q was testing Picard and seeing how long it took Picard to realize the different paradox's he seemingly created.

The reason the battle group was so small was, as I said, that they had all of 40 min to nail one together. Ask the USA to get a fleet of ships at a certain location in 40 min and you won't get a good showing either.

Why are we saying that shields weren't seen on LAATs in AOTC? They're quite obvious for the entire time Obi-Wan and Anakin's LAAT is being chased by the Geonosian fighters. They failed by the time they got to the hangar, and the LAAT was promptly destroyed.

Vympel wrote:Why are we saying that shields weren't seen on LAATs in AOTC? They're quite obvious for the entire time Obi-Wan and Anakin's LAAT is being chased by the Geonosian fighters. They failed by the time they got to the hangar, and the LAAT was promptly destroyed.

I KNOW THAT. They were also clearly depicted several times in the canonical novelization, and supported by the EU. They exist. Anderson doesn't think so. That's why he's DarkStar.

Yogi wrote:The reason the battle group was so small was, as I said, that they had all of 40 min to nail one together. Ask the USA to get a fleet of ships at a certain location in 40 min and you won't get a good showing either.

Idiot. I already explained this to you. Are you purposely ignoring my explanation, or are you actually this dense? Okay, the UFP, after they heard about the Romulan coup d'etat, should have been moving as many ships as possible to the Neutral Zone as quickly as possible. The Romulans, to them, are a military threat. They knew NOTHING about this coup. Their file on Shinzon was laughably small, even by Janeway's admission. The Enterprise-E sat in orbit around Romulus for nearly 20 HOURS, during which time (and their transit time to Romulus) the UFP should have been gathering ships from everywhere they could get. After they MET Shinzon, they waited for another FULL DAY (Romulan time, it's unclear how long this was, but it is clear that it was approximately, and conveniently, about a day in Earth time), during which time Picard did not trust Shinzon, and Shinzon had offered the UFP nothing in the way of information or discussion. SF should still have those ships moving to protect their border with the Romulans. Only a military idiot would have withheld these necessary forces from the front. Then, when Shinzon finally became hostile, Picard and company ran to the Neutral Zone to meet up with a grand total of SEVEN SHIPS that had been assembled to meet them, even after about two DAYS of moving ships into the region.

Master of Ossus wrote:
I KNOW THAT. They were also clearly depicted several times in the canonical novelization, and supported by the EU. They exist. Anderson doesn't think so. That's why he's DarkStar.

Ah ok. I just got the impression from the discussion that everyone was agreeing that they weren't in the film but they were in the novelization, when they were in both. I just loved Darkstar's pathetic Trekkie phanboy wanking that a handphaser would bring one down

What DOES he think those bursts are then?

Master of Ossus wrote:

Vympel wrote:Why are we saying that shields weren't seen on LAATs in AOTC? They're quite obvious for the entire time Obi-Wan and Anakin's LAAT is being chased by the Geonosian fighters. They failed by the time they got to the hangar, and the LAAT was promptly destroyed.

I KNOW THAT. They were also clearly depicted several times in the canonical novelization, and supported by the EU. They exist. Anderson doesn't think so. That's why he's DarkStar.

I thought the LAATs were the energy weapons shooting at the TF Spheres....

Guess I should go out and buy my own copy of ICS.

Vympel wrote:Ah ok. I just got the impression from the discussion that everyone was agreeing that they weren't in the film but they were in the novelization, when they were in both. I just loved Darkstar's pathetic Trekkie phanboy wanking that a handphaser would bring one down

Shouldn't come as a surprise; this is the guy who thinks the Death Star superlaser is 23.5 gigatons (0.02% of the dino-killer asteroid).

What DOES he think those bursts are then?

He probably believes they're just proximity flak, or blaster bolts hitting pieces of sand in the air. Never mind that one of them was a direct hit on the back which knocked the gunship around but did not damage it for some mysterious reason ...