Vulcans vs Mentats

[Darth Wong]

1. Mentats CLAIM their computational power far exceeds that of the computers of the past. They don't believe that they have a use for these "trifling machines." It could just be a form of job security but the novels state this opinion many times.

So either they were lying for job security, or Frank Herbert is one of those idiots who thinks that the human brain is a spectacularly powerful computational device whose capabilities have just "not been fully tapped". The Mentats would be intelligent if they were using computers secretly, while pretending to hate them. As it is, they're just part of a grand society of religious fanatic Luddites.

2. Anyone who attempts to subvert the Butlerian Jihad and the Great Convention would face the combined might of the Emporer and Great Houses (Leto II dared to use technology because his power was absolute.) That means that anyone (Mentats included) that used AI technology would be put to death instantly. Even if someone thought it was a good idea, they couldn't use it for fear of society's paranoia about AI's. That's why IX and the Bene Tleilax were considered outcasts: they were SUSPECTED of making machines that violated the rules; it just wasn't proven yet.

OK, let me clarify: the whole society of Dune is composed of morons, not just the Mentats.

3. To the commentary that they don't have tech: massive city-sized buildings, giant spice harvesting machinery, galactic trade, Lasguns, galactic spaceflight of massive quantities of people and materials anyone? Hello?

All of which would be far more efficient with the use of computers. Do you know how many computers are built into a typical modern automobile? Do you know how much of the fuel-efficiency and performance of that automobile is a direct result of these computers? And besides, who said they don't have tech? They just don't have computers, which severely limits the performance of their tech.

4. Personal shields and emplacement shields have supposedly made many weapons obsolete. The Harkonnens won the first Dune battle because they found ways to nullify this advantage on Arrakis, both at the personal and emplacement level.

There are simpler ways of overcoming personal and emplacement shields. That was my point.

5. The government is fuedal in nature with wars being fought in specified ways: ie. War of Assassins, Kanly etc. They may be fighting the wars in these ways due to "codes of conduct" because of the fear of what everyone might do if they "played dirty." The winners would always have to worry about how the method of their victory was perceived politically by the rest of the Empire. They could win the battle, but lose an allies' support.

It's "playing dirty" to use artillery or napalm, but not playing dirty to launch sneak attacks?

5. How big would the stakes have to be in order to violate the code of conduct and break out "really dirty" weapons? Muad'dib, who's playing for an Empire goes to great trouble to explain that he didn't violate the Great Convention by use of Atomics. He's still playing by the rules even though he brought the Empire to its knees...

I said nothing about using nukes. You could easily overwhelm personal and emplacement shields through other means, such as napalm, heavy explosives, high-momentum impactors, etc.

Stupid? Sure. But in the end I think Herbert was trying to show what happens when dogma and religion are intertwined with politics. He also wanted a Galactic Empire that still had a use for the romance/adventure a good swordfight provides. Maybe somebody should've handed him a lightsabre...

The book is enjoyable if you can get over the sheer stupidity of the backstory. That a society should advance in any meaningful way while under the grip of such religious fanatical idiocy is one of its most bizarre implicit claims, particularly when this particular form of idiocy is overtly anti-technological.

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

Artillery exists in and is used in the book Dune.

Really? I don't remember that, but it's been a while since I've read the book. I enjoyed it, but it does rest upon stupid plot devices for its setup. Was this artillery used against buildings or people? What kind of artillery was it?

I believe the Baron used artillery to seal off Duke Leto's men in the caves after they fled into them after the Harkonnens attacked.

but I remember very clearly the Baron thinking "Who would have thought of reviving artillery in the age of shields?"

What was maddening about the first book is that no combat is ever described. Based on the "fast on defense, slow on attack" rule of shields, the battles must have been soldiers swiftly blocking slow attacks. I can imagine very clearly how they must have had to fight, but no real battles are described.

Anyway, the point is is that we don't know if napalm and artillery could even penetrate personal shields. I know that in the desert Paul used rocket launchers and other such things when Harkonnen forces could not use shields anymore.

To me, Dune is a brilliant book that seems to maddeningly refuse to describe any form of mass combat and thus confuses many perfectly intelligent people. To me, thebattles make sense, but I had to read it several times. I guess it boils down to the fact that this is a society that highly values the human mind and human body, so hand-to-hand is almost preferred. That may seem ridiculous, but this is the human race we're dealing with after all.

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

OK, let me clarify: the whole society of Dune is composed of morons, not just the Mentats.

The book is enjoyable if you can get over the sheer stupidity of the backstory. That a society should advance in any meaningful way while under the grip of such religious fanatical idiocy is one of its most bizarre implicit claims, particularly when this particular form of idiocy is overtly anti-technological.

Yeah, most fans of the book implicitly state that they sure as hell wouldn't want to live in this world.

[HemlockGrey]

I said nothing about using nukes. You could easily overwhelm personal and emplacement shields through other means, such as napalm, heavy explosives, high-momentum impactors, etc.

Well, IIRC, the Great Houses tend to avoid using any weapons that could cause excessive civilian casualties.

Of course, if one House did decide to play dirty, it could probably beat the living shit out of any of it's opponents, at least until they started to ';play dirty' too...

[Scorpius]

OK, let me clarify: the whole society of Dune is composed of morons, not just the Mentats.

Yep.

All of which would be far more efficient with the use of computers. Do you know how many computers are built into a typical modern automobile? Do you know how much of the fuel-efficiency and performance of that automobile is a direct result of these computers? And besides, who said they don't have tech? They just don't have computers, which severely limits the performance of their tech.

The comment was made earlier in the thread as a toss away remark by someone else. Should've said who I was answering...

Oh and yep to your comment.

There are simpler ways of overcoming personal and emplacement shields. That was my point.

Oh, undoubtably. However, I was trying to illustrate the mindset of the Atreides and why they lost so big. They weren't expecting anything innovative and didn't have any kind of initiative.

It's "playing dirty" to use artillery or napalm, but not playing dirty to launch sneak attacks?

The sneak attack happened during a state of open hostilities between the two houses. Duke Leto had rejected Harkonnen's peace entreaty (which Harkonnen would've violated anyway of course) which would make him fair game to any offensive. I believe the term "Vendetta" was used (The book's at home)

I said nothing about using nukes. You could easily overwhelm personal and emplacement shields through other means, such as napalm, heavy explosives, high-momentum impactors, etc.

Sure, but the point I was making was that even when Paul has won, has contol of the Spice and the Emperor in his grasp, won the BIG PRIZE, it's part of the mindset that he has to state that he didn't violate the convention. The whole mindset of playing by the rules.

The book is enjoyable if you can get over the sheer stupidity of the backstory. That a society should advance in any meaningful way while under the grip of such religious fanatical idiocy is one of its most bizarre implicit claims, particularly when this particular form of idiocy is overtly anti-technological.

I personally LOVED the book (and the ones that followed.) And I'm not disagreeing with you. I don't think that Herbert was advocating this form of society/government. In later books he has Paul compare himself to Hitler and lament that his body count is higher... If you look at the pieces of the puzzle: CHOAM=OPEC, the dangers of fundamentalism, the damages a charismatic leader can do to a society if the right pieces are in place -- It's still important and relevant as it was in 1965.

I'll finish with one thing: I haven't read Brian Herbert/KJA prequels yet so they may overrule me-- I never got the feeling that this society had advanced: I always thought that they were recovering from the machine dominance in a haphazard way sometimes taking steps backward out of fear, which was why they put such an emphasis on the human mind and human conditioning. I always thought that they were in decline from the technological age and that was why Paul and his son Leto II had to do what they did in later books: to save humanity from extinction. This would explain why the technology was lying around as leftovers...

Whew! Oh and to get back on topic: Mentats are superior (If you go by observed performance in later books, which I do. I may not believe it, but the books are canon, so...The only Vulcan that impressed me was Spock, and was he a brilliant Scientist because he was Vulcan or brilliant because he was Spock? I believe the latter.)

[Scorpius]

I said nothing about using nukes. You could easily overwhelm personal and emplacement shields through other means, such as napalm, heavy explosives, high-momentum impactors, etc.

Well, IIRC, the Great Houses tend to avoid using any weapons that could cause excessive civilian casualties.

Of course, if one House did decide to play dirty, it could probably beat the living shit out of any of it's opponents, at least until they started to ';play dirty' too...

Worse, if one House played dirty they would be fighting ALL the other houses combined as well as the Emperor. That is the Great Convention.

[Alex Moon]

Artillery exists in and is used in the book Dune.

Really? I don't remember that, but it's been a while since I've read the book. I enjoyed it, but it does rest upon stupid plot devices for its setup. Was this artillery used against buildings or people? What kind of artillery was it?

The Harkonnens knew that House Atredeis troops would take defensive positions in the caves in the mountains around the city, so they used artillery to close the cave mouths, sealing the men inside.

[Ghost Rider]

For the most part it's odd...somehow Herbert came up with the idea that because the Shield and Lasgun reaction is so nasty that weaponry becomes outmoded(I mean hell he makes Paul say it regardless of how inaccurate the statment is)

Overall the biggest thing I see for the books is they concentrate on the powers of a person instead of tech ability(I mean c'mon the way that Melange is used and the concentration and total lack of much tech is pretty astounding for sci-fi in general).

[Darth Wong]

The Harkonnens knew that House Atredeis troops would take defensive positions in the caves in the mountains around the city, so they used artillery to close the cave mouths, sealing the men inside.

If their artillery was powerful enough to close large caves, it would have been easily powerful enough to kill shielded men through blunt-force trauma. Even if the shield is impenetrable by artillery, it doesn't matter when the whole man+shield combo is thrown like a rag doll.

All this means is that the vaunted Mentats of Dune do not understand Conservation of Momentum. The fact that artillery still exists and was usable in battle (albeit indirectly) proves that it could be easily used directly against soldiers without too much political difficulty. What difference does it make if they're dead after being sealed into a cave with no exits, or dead after being blown up?

Let's face it; Herbert thought of the no-tech knife-fighting spice-taking scenario first, and then concocted a flimsy, wildly convoluted backstory to explain it after the fact.

[Alex Moon]

The Harkonnens knew that House Atredeis troops would take defensive positions in the caves in the mountains around the city, so they used artillery to close the cave mouths, sealing the men inside.

If their artillery was powerful enough to close large caves, it would have been easily powerful enough to kill shielded men through blunt-force trauma. Even if the shield is impenetrable by artillery, it doesn't matter when the whole man+shield combo is thrown like a rag doll.

Except that if they're capable of producing shields that will protect a man who is running and dodging in battle, why shouldn't they be able to produce shields to protect areas. There are some hints that they can do just that in the books in fact. Area shields protecting soldiers and important locations could defeat the use of artillery in most situations. Furthermore, if shields work both ways, ie you can't have something pass out of the shield above a certain speed, then any artillery would have to drop their own shields to fire, opening them up to attacks by heavy weapons such as lasguns.

Most of the combat we see in Dune is on Arrakkis, where the population in concentrated in a few areas, and in the other parts, the sandworms make an active shield a lethal liability for it's owner, and the planets nasty weather cripples much of the other technology very quickly.

[Lord Pounder]

Thou Shalt Not Make A Machine That Resembels The Workings Of a Human Mind. Thats the quote from thr O.C. Bible. That means yiu can use certain dumb computers, with NO AI.

As far as mentats go they are way superior to Vulcans. Vulcans supression of their emotions effects their ability to perform. How come ver few of the prominant scientitis we see in the TNG and onwards are Vulcan?

[Darth Wong]

If their artillery was powerful enough to close large caves, it would have been easily powerful enough to kill shielded men through blunt-force trauma. Even if the shield is impenetrable by artillery, it doesn't matter when the whole man+shield combo is thrown like a rag doll.

Except that if they're capable of producing shields that will protect a man who is running and dodging in battle, why shouldn't they be able to produce shields to protect areas. There are some hints that they can do just that in the books in fact.

Then pound the shield with high-velocity impactors and knock the shield generator loose from its moorings. Conservation of Momentum again.

Most of the combat we see in Dune is on Arrakkis, where the population in concentrated in a few areas, and in the other parts, the sandworms make an active shield a lethal liability for it's owner, and the planets nasty weather cripples much of the other technology very quickly.

Artillery works just fine in the desert.

[Darth Wong]

Thou Shalt Not Make A Machine That Resembels The Workings Of a Human Mind. Thats the quote from thr O.C. Bible. That means yiu can use certain dumb computers, with NO AI.

Good. Then why don't they? Why the hell are mentats needed for simple calculations?

As far as mentats go they are way superior to Vulcans. Vulcans supression of their emotions effects their ability to perform. How come ver few of the prominant scientitis we see in the TNG and onwards are Vulcan?

How many prominent scientists do we see in TNG and onwards? Four or five? Many of which were seriously neurotic? I wouldn't leap to conclusions on that basis.

[Scorpius]

Good. Then why don't they? Why the hell are mentats needed for simple calculations?

I don't think they were using Mentats as simple calculation devices. Most Houses usually employed only one, and that was usually as a higher level strategist.

How many prominent scientists do we see in TNG and onwards? Four or five? Many of which were seriously neurotic? I wouldn't leap to conclusions on that basis.

Trek seemed to have a love/hate relationship with Scientists/Technology. They love the Treknobabble but seem to fear the maverick Dr Frankenstein types.

Darth Wong:

Is it your premise that the Mentats are stupid because
- they don't ignore the "rules of engagement" as set out by the Great Convention
- they don't develop and use computers that the rest of their society would hate and hunt them down for using (Mentat numbers compared to the rest of Galactic Society are miniscule and they are publicly known as Mentats)
- are unable to overcome the restrictions imposed on them by the fact that the Spacing Guild controls all Interstellar Spaceflight (thus what weapons get shipped to any cosmic hotspot)
- are unwilling/unable to jeapordize their important positions by giving machines a chance to think again.
- are unable to obtain and maintain the level of power necessary to effect such changes.

I would say Mentats are "limited" in their capabilities, but not stupid. In a society where everyone believes as they do in Dune a smart man would know how to use that societies strengths and weaknesses to his own benefit, whereas a stupid man would stand up and say "I know! What we need are computers!" while all the schoolchildren and housewives within earshot all pick up rocks and pummel him to death. This is the world as portrayed in the books.

I would agree with all of what you say except for the fact that the Mentats could not overcome the Universe in which they live. They, along with Bene Gesserit, Imperial Doctors, Warmasters of the Ginaz school are all effectively slaves who are purchased by the Great Houses and the Imperium. They have very limited choices about whom they serve and HOW they serve them.

Herbert's point was that Humanity (represented by the old Imperium and Great Houses) was STAGNANT: The sleeper (humanity) must awaken and that was what Paul tried (and failed) to do and that his son Leto II ultimately succeeded at doing.

Now, I know you think both Vulcans and Mentats are stupid: Who's stupider?

[Darth Wong]

Trek seemed to have a love/hate relationship with Scientists/Technology. They love the Treknobabble but seem to fear the maverick Dr Frankenstein types.

Unfortunately, they think all scientists are maverick Dr. Frankenstein types. Star Trek does it damndest to glorify scientists and make us fear their supposed irresponsible recklessness at the same time.

Is it your premise that the Mentats are stupid because
- they don't ignore the "rules of engagement" as set out by the Great Convention
- they don't develop and use computers that the rest of their society would hate and hunt them down for using (Mentat numbers compared to the rest of Galactic Society are miniscule and they are publicly known as Mentats)
- are unable to overcome the restrictions imposed on them by the fact that the Spacing Guild controls all Interstellar Spaceflight (thus what weapons get shipped to any cosmic hotspot)
- are unwilling/unable to jeapordize their important positions by giving machines a chance to think again.
- are unable to obtain and maintain the level of power necessary to effect such changes.

It is my premise that Mentats are stupid because they, like the whole of their society, are locked in the grip of religious oppression. The fact that an individual Mentat does not choose to rebel against this system is much like the fact that an individual Christian in 1200 did not choose to openly rebel against the oppression of the church at that time. It may be sensible on that level, but it doesn't change the fact that the entire society of the era was manifestly stupid.

Herbert's point was that Humanity (represented by the old Imperium and Great Houses) was STAGNANT: The sleeper (humanity) must awaken and that was what Paul tried (and failed) to do and that his son Leto II ultimately succeeded at doing.

I never read the sequels, so I'm not familiar with subsequent events. I liked Dune despite its faults (much like "Treasure Planet", one must simply discard one's sense of reason sometimes), but for some reason, I had no inclination to read any of the following books.

Now, I know you think both Vulcans and Mentats are stupid: Who's stupider?

Mentats, along with their whole society. They're locked in the grip of religious idiocy. Vulcans are locked in their own particular form of dogma, but it is not as regressive as the Dune society.

[Alex Moon]

If their artillery was powerful enough to close large caves, it would have been easily powerful enough to kill shielded men through blunt-force trauma. Even if the shield is impenetrable by artillery, it doesn't matter when the whole man+shield combo is thrown like a rag doll.

Except that if they're capable of producing shields that will protect a man who is running and dodging in battle, why shouldn't they be able to produce shields to protect areas. There are some hints that they can do just that in the books in fact.

Then pound the shield with high-velocity impactors and knock the shield generator loose from its moorings. Conservation of Momentum again.

Base your defenses around installations where powerful enough shield generators can be proporly moored to prevent that. Remeber that the Duneverse has been at relative peace for a decent amount of time now, and so the fighting between houses seemes for the most part to be limited to assasination and quick raids, not the best places to use artillery.

Most of the combat we see in Dune is on Arrakkis, where the population in concentrated in a few areas, and in the other parts, the sandworms make an active shield a lethal liability for it's owner, and the planets nasty weather cripples much of the other technology very quickly.

Artillery works just fine in the desert.

Until I activate a shield unit and run. When the sandworms show up, they'll take out the shield and then go after your artillery.

[Jadeite]

HDS wrote:

Also, what about this schulzman or whatever, who invented the shield and all kinds of crap, I heard he was immortal?

His name was Holtzman, he invented the shields, Holtzman drives for Heighliners, and I think maybe lasguns. He wasnt immortal, he died, at a young age I think.

[His Divine Shadow]

Found some info on this holtzman guy:
http://futureprometheus.com/drmcnelly/holtzman.html

[His Divine Shadow]

Ah yes, a tragic story, dumbass fundie fucks...

[Jadeite]

Ah yes, a tragic story, dumbass fundie fucks...

I wonder what the Dune universes' tech wouldv been if Holtzman hadnt been killed.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well, he might still live, looks like a big unknown his death actually, but I'm overly optimistic.

[Uraniun235]

The Harkonnens knew that House Atredeis troops would take defensive positions in the caves in the mountains around the city, so they used artillery to close the cave mouths, sealing the men inside.

If their artillery was powerful enough to close large caves, it would have been easily powerful enough to kill shielded men through blunt-force trauma. Even if the shield is impenetrable by artillery, it doesn't matter when the whole man+shield combo is thrown like a rag doll.

All this means is that the vaunted Mentats of Dune do not understand Conservation of Momentum. The fact that artillery still exists and was usable in battle (albeit indirectly) proves that it could be easily used directly against soldiers without too much political difficulty. What difference does it make if they're dead after being sealed into a cave with no exits, or dead after being blown up?

Let's face it; Herbert thought of the no-tech knife-fighting spice-taking scenario first, and then concocted a flimsy, wildly convoluted backstory to explain it after the fact.

Part of the problem is the extreme cost of transporting troops. The Harkonnen offensive was so costly that the cost *might* have been made up for by the total spice output of Arrakis after about 60 years. Considering how valuable spice was already, that's mighty damn expensive.

The Spacing Guild might have *very* high prices for transporting them (or for transporting the ammunition), making their transport an expensive venture beyond the reach of most Houses. Carrying enough artillery ammunition to ensure a victory against an opponent with no artillery could also be prohibitively expensive.

[Stormbringer]

The idea behind the combat is simple. Avoid damage to facilities, people and resources. The loos of life with the Butlerian Jihad and the pasting of planets created a highly regulated system of warfare.

And as it has been pointed out, it's enforced by the Spacing Guild and the Empire. Try and violate the rules and you suffer, badly! The same thing applies to violating the tech rules.

[Skelron]

Darth Wong, I know you don't like the idea that Organic can be better than Tech, and in fact I agree mostly. However when examing this World we have to go by the view of what they say happens. (In the same way that we all know the Force dos't exist but it can't be left out of a debate...)
Menats are bloddy good, The memory storage facilty's are unbelivable, in the Prequals the Emporer is looking for a legal way out of a situation he got himself out, any Legal excuse for an action he took. So he gets his Legal Mentat team together, they Each indivdualy held EVERY Single law ever passed, ever single legal precedent ever set. Not on;ly this but they could anaylise them for the desired interpretation needed, it takes roughly oh about I think five minutes maybe less (Each Mentat working indivdualy by the way, he wanted several covering the same job to make sure, he was desperate he'd taken an action and realised it may be his Death sentence.) for one of them to find an answer. This shows that mentats have the capilty to store VAST amounts of data. (Imagine all of the Legal Precedents and laws in effect in the world today, then multiply by every world in the Dune Verse, and the amount of history and time for laws to be passed, and you get an idea of how much memory they have) Plus processing speed 5 mins to search through and analyise all that data, to find a loop hole. It's a phenomenal process. Yes Logically Computer's would be better, but then again any Computer that could do that would worry people terrified of the AI's returning.
Maybe your right and it's following a Fallacy, the slipperly slope one, BUT thats logical, humans are animals and do not think logiacally. (Unless you are a Bene Gesseret, a Mentat, or a Guilder. Hence the Whole Gom Jabar test, would you suffer the pain for the future survival or give in to the pain...)

As for the Artillary, the Shields are based of the Holtzman effect in general I thiunk, and repersented a wgole new area in Technolgy, perhaps they had the abilty to circumvent the whole getting tossed around by the shel;l. Unlikely I admit no i go with the Cost argument the Cost was simply to large to transport much in the way of artillary. (note the guild will transport ANYTHING, even Nukes. You simply have to pay them enough... It's the simple fact that if you nuke someone, the entire landsrad Nukes you back.)

[Lord Pounder]

To reply to the question about the rules of the great convention. Any and all weapons of mass destruction are forbidden. If you use Chemical Ware fare or Carpet bombing etc you are simply fined etc and ordered to pay reparation by a landsrad court, buy if you use a nuke your house and all your holdings are forfit and the combined armies of the Great Houses will be coming for you. Some people here seem to think that victory is the only purpose in war. But if you wage war like a barbarian you will be smacked down like one. Maybe restricting the way we hold wars would help us?